The 12 tribes of Israel: They be us.

[robert derrick]

1 Corinthians 10.32: "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God".

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Whether they be gentiles that know not God (1 Thess 4:5), or Jews that call themselves Jews and are not (Rom 2:28-29), nor babes in Christ and the church (1 Cor 8:7), give none offense to any and be courteous to all without gainsaying to any, that any of them that are without might be saved (1 Cor 5:12), because they are not: neither Gentiles that know not God, nor Jews that are outwardly. And any that be babes, destroy not with your liberty. (Rom 14:15)

The key to all prophecy of Scripture is that there is no more physical seed of promise with God, neither from the Gentiles, nor for them that still call themselves Jews. Nor even them that are taught a tradition of prophecy that is not true.

Any babes that still cherish a physical seed and speak prophetically of them: go ahead. So far as these Scriptures and reasonings are concerned: nevermind.

 

[n2thelight]

Jew's must be grafted back into their own tree ,and if they don't believe in Christ, they won't be period !

 

[robert derrick]

So are we gonna have a Jesus for Israel and a Jesus for the Church ?

And are you saying Israel are not Christians ?

Scripture is saying Jews outwardly are not jews and Israel of the flesh are not all Israel, but he that is a Jew inwardly is a Jew, and he that is Israel by faith is Israel of God:

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (Gal 6)

This rule being the rule of Christ and faith of Jesus, not the rule of man and faith in flesh.

Scripture can only be denied by them that cling to false doctrine and interpretation of prophecy of Scripture: They who walk according to the rule of christ by faith of Jesus are the Israel of God.

The only way to be a Jew inwardly and Israel of God by faith, is through Jesus.

And so, there is one Lord and Savior of all Israel of God, which is His Church: Jesus.

The prophesy of the Deliverer of Sion has come, and all Israel is saved in Christ, because only those of faith are children of Israel: no more false brethren of the flesh to deceive and persecute the saints of Christ, as they did the prophets of old, which is what they searched and longed for: An Israel of God that was all of God and Israel in deed and in truth. (1 John 3:18)

Stop thinking physical inheritance by natural birth with God and start thinking God's inheritance by birth of faith, then there won't be any confusion.

The Deliverer of Sion has come, and the Scriptures of His new testament are here for the reading and believing.

If people want to insist on reading prophecy of Scripture through eyes of physical seed, then they are in alliance with a physical seed that reads Moses of old through their eyes of error.

 

[robert derrick]

Jew's must be grafted back into their own tree ,and if they don't believe in Christ, they won't be period ![/QUOTE

I love you brother, so I won't kill your spirit with the letter of truth.

Just consider this: in Christ you are the Jew and Israel of God, and it is His tree and Vine, not our own. We be just the branches, whether grafted in also, or grafted in again.

 

[n2thelight]

I understanding what you are saying ,I've read your responses and I agree with your responses ,think you are not seeing what I'm saying ,so to keep it simple, Israel has always been the Church ,the two cannot not be separated . No
one will be saved just because .

Thanks for the love however my spirit can't and won't be killed

 

[robert derrick]

Yes. From the call of Abraham (c.1921BC Genesis12:1) to the fall of Jerusalem 70AD, Israel has had both good and bad branches. The main thought in the metaphor of the olive trees is because the root is eternally good and holy so the remaining branches of Israel and the grafted-in branches of non-Israel are also eternally good and holy.

Rom 11:16-18 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. (17) And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, (18) do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Reading OT history and its lessons regarding Israel's idolatry and backsliding does give cause to question how if the root is good and holy can any of the branches be so rotten?

Lay it on me, brothers and sisters in Christ.

The parallel with the rotteness of paganised Christianity today is not hard to discern, with kundalini and other abominations present with the full approval of deceived assembly leaders and misguided congregation members.

In the old covenant with the physical seed, where the law of a carnal commandment only pertained to outward obedience, there were bad branches outwardly obeying, abounding with good branches obeying by faith.

But now the Deliverer out of Sion has made all Israel to be saved and of good branches, if they abide in Him by faith, else they fall off by dead weight of unbelief and transgression.

Nevertheless, the Israel of God stands sure in His faith, and the Lord knows them that are His. (2 Tim 2:19)

The difference between the old and the new is between the physical obedience only and the inward faith first; therefore, no physical seed is of promise any more, because no flesh shall be justified in His sight anymore, because the commandment now in Christ is to believe from the heart and so fulfill the royal law of loving they neighbor as thyself with faith, not just with works to boast upon.

The old physical seed boasted themselves in outward keeping of the law, as justifying themselves among themselves with God. (Rom 2:17-23)

And so the seed of God remains holy with root in Christ to make and keep all the branches holy: this is the Israel of God in Christ jesus by a better covenant than that of the old with the physical seed, that did always err from the truth:

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (Rev 22:16)

In Israel, God Himself is now the seed, Jesus is the root, and His believers are the offspringing branches thereof, not by physical will of man and natural birth, but by faith of Jesus in God.

There is no more physical seed of promise with God, nor with Scripture, nor with prophecy of Scripture. Period.

 

[robert derrick]

I understanding what you are saying ,I've read your responses and I agree with your responses ,think you are not seeing what I'm saying ,so to keep it simple, Israel has always been the Church ,the two cannot not be separated . No
one will be saved just because .

Thanks for the love however my spirit can't and won't be killed

No one will be saved just because .
Just because of their physical lineage. Good deal.

The Israel of God was the church in the wilderness, born by seed of man with promise, and now is the church of Christ today, born of seed of God by faith.

No more seed of man, but only seed of God. The old is vanished away, and the new is here to stay.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes. From the call of Abraham (c.1921BC Genesis12:1) to the fall of Jerusalem 70AD, Israel has had both good and bad branches. The main thought in the metaphor of the olive trees is because the root is eternally good and holy so the remaining branches of Israel and the grafted-in branches of non-Israel are also eternally good and holy.

Rom 11:16-18 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. (17) And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, (18) do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Reading OT history and its lessons regarding Israel's idolatry and backsliding does give cause to question how if the root is good and holy can any of the branches be so rotten?

Lay it on me, brothers and sisters in Christ.

The parallel with the rotteness of paganised Christianity today is not hard to discern, with kundalini and other abominations present with the full approval of deceived assembly leaders and misguided congregation members.

What is kundalini?

 

[n2thelight]

What is kundalini?

Had to look that one up as well

What is Kundalini? — The Kundalini Guide
www.kundaliniguide.com/what-is-kundalini
Kundalini is a Sanscrit term from ancient India that identifies the arising of an energy and consciousness which has been coiled at the base of the spine since birth, and is the source of the life force (pranic energy, chi, bio-energy) that everybody knows.

 

[Stumpmaster]

What is kundalini?

Bad News from New Age Paganism being dished up as Biblical Truth as follows:

False Doctrine Alert:

In deep meditation practices, spiritual energy (kundalini, Holy Spirit) rises through the spinal column and proceeds to open the seven chakras (seven churches of revelations) along the spine until it reaches the pineal gland, symbolizing a spiritually-resurrected individual. This process can also be seen as the serpent that becomes transformed from the ego into the fully realized and awakened spiritual being (the shedding of the ego). Such an experience raises the conscious awareness of an individual beyond the senses. This is a real experience that ancient spiritual peoples—even the earliest Christians—were aware of.[Souce: Moses, the Bronze Serpent, and Bible Kundalini]

See for yourself on numerous Youtube videos:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Kundalini+exposed

 

[Robert Gwin]

You seem to be a rare bird in this. I usually get lots of flack for it. Sort of like, how dare I.

What do you think of there no more being a physical seed of promise by Abraham and Sarah, as Isaac? They have been concluded in unblief and so are not the children of Abraham and Hagar as Ishmael. (Gal 4)

In the garden of Eden after the sin of Adam, God gave the first prophecy that is really what the Bible is all about. He would produce a seed that would crush the rebels. Abraham was the next recorded moving forward of that prophecy. God told Abram, that by means of his seed, all nations of the earth would bless themselves Gen 22:18. Very condensed conclusion is that no doubt you realize that seed was Jesus, who came through the line of Abraham. Jacob who became Israel was a forefather to the foretold Messiah as well, and that is where the 12 tribes originally came from, Jacob whose name was changed to Israel, and his 12 sons. Israelites became known as Jews, a generalized term like cops for those who were from the tribe of Judah. The term Jews became an acceptable term for the later covenanted nation of God primarily of those who were natural descendants of Jacob. Although the term was acceptably applied to the proselytes as well, through the world's eyes anyway.

The covenant was fulfilled when the Messiah came, matter of fact, that covenant was referred to as a tutor leading to Christ. Because of the covenanted people of God's rejection of the Messiah, Jesus plainly stated the Kingdom would be taken from them, and given to a nation producing it's fruits Matt 21:43. The new covenant was presented to Jesus' faithful apostles on the night of his death right after the Passover meal Luke 22:28-30. That covenant was accepted by God and the holy spirit was poured out on what we figure to be 120 disciples gathered in an upper room on Pentecost of the year 33, thus the birth of the Christian faith. The Bible reveals that God kept the law covenant in force "till the end of the week" or in other words for another 3 and 1/2 yrs, 36 CE. So the Jews Paul was speaking about make up the 12 tribes itemized in Rev 7, and Rev 5:9,10 brings out that they were selected from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

That is the greatly shortened but to the point moving forward of God's people sir. Hope that helps you in being able to explain it to those who think differently. Being that the entire Bible is basically about that, much is really involved in understanding it and how it applies to God's people today.

 

[robert derrick]

In the garden of Eden after the sin of Adam, God gave the first prophecy that is really what the Bible is all about. He would produce a seed that would crush the rebels. Abraham was the next recorded moving forward of that prophecy. God told Abram, that by means of his seed, all nations of the earth would bless themselves Gen 22:18. Very condensed conclusion is that no doubt you realize that seed was Jesus, who came through the line of Abraham. Jacob who became Israel was a forefather to the foretold Messiah as well, and that is where the 12 tribes originally came from, Jacob whose name was changed to Israel, and his 12 sons. Israelites became known as Jews, a generalized term like cops for those who were from the tribe of Judah. The term Jews became an acceptable term for the later covenanted nation of God primarily of those who were natural descendants of Jacob. Although the term was acceptably applied to the proselytes as well, through the world's eyes anyway.

The covenant was fulfilled when the Messiah came, matter of fact, that covenant was referred to as a tutor leading to Christ. Because of the covenanted people of God's rejection of the Messiah, Jesus plainly stated the Kingdom would be taken from them, and given to a nation producing it's fruits Matt 21:43. The new covenant was presented to Jesus' faithful apostles on the night of his death right after the Passover meal Luke 22:28-30. That covenant was accepted by God and the holy spirit was poured out on what we figure to be 120 disciples gathered in an upper room on Pentecost of the year 33, thus the birth of the Christian faith. The Bible reveals that God kept the law covenant in force "till the end of the week" or in other words for another 3 and 1/2 yrs, 36 CE. So the Jews Paul was speaking about make up the 12 tribes itemized in Rev 7, and Rev 5:9,10 brings out that they were selected from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

That is the greatly shortened but to the point moving forward of God's people sir. Hope that helps you in being able to explain it to those who think differently. Being that the entire Bible is basically about that, much is really involved in understanding it and how it applies to God's people today.

The term Jews became an acceptable term for the later covenanted nation of God primarily of those who were natural descendants of Jacob. Although the term was acceptably applied to the proselytes as well, through the world's eyes anyway.

They were old covenant converts, who willingly acknowledged the Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, received circumcision for themselves and their offspring, and submitted to the law of Moses.

The latter day Jews of apostacy at the Deliverer's coming were condemned as proselytizers to a Jewish religion that no longer worshipped the God of Abraham and had so thoroughly corrupted the law of Moses with their own traditions, that they even condemned the Lord as sinner in their eyes.

Jesus plainly stated the Kingdom would be taken from them, and given to a nation producing it's fruits Matt 21:43.

And that is the prophecy where I say God would give His promise to Abraham to another seed and His name Israel to another nation, doing away with the old and making the new, with a better seed and nation to Himself: the seed of Abraham by faith in Jesus, the holy nation that the Lord offered at mt Sinai, that the people were glad to receive to be made above all people on the earth, until they actually saw the Lord descend onto the mount, speak with His own great voice, and gave them the 10 commandments from the burnings smoke of the mount.

That is when the physical seed first turned back from the Lord, and so He needed to give them a law to keep them as a special seed and nation to Himself, until the time of reformation and coming of the Messiah, where He now has a peculiar people unto Himself who do not draw back from Him speaking personally and commanding from the heart.

And so, I say the physical seed of Abraham and Sarah, who finally crucified the Son of God, were 'miserably destroyed' as they prophesied from off the face of the earth, and made by God into the seed of Abraham and Hagar, while the promise to the seed of Abraham is translated (2 Sam 3:10) into the seed of faith in natural bodies is now that of Abraham and Sarah, as was Isaac (Gal 4), and they are now all Israel, whether grafted from among the uncircumcised Gentiles, or grafted in again from among the uncircumcised seed of bondage of Hagar.

How do you read (Gal 4:21-31) and (Rom 9:6-9)?

Are we not the promised children of Abraham and Sarah, as Isaac, in whom Abraham's seed is called, and not them born of the flesh, who's circumcision is outward and no more circumcision with God?

For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

That word of promise was first fulfilled in Isaac, and last fulfilled in Jesus Christ, born of the seed of David, and in them that believe Jesus, who is firstborn of many brethren (Rom 8:29) and promised sons of Abraham by Sarah, as Isaac.

 

[Robert Gwin]

How do you read (Gal 4:21-31) and (Rom 9:6-9)?

Hi Bob, Early in the new covenant as you can imagine, many were truly confused about what was going on. We were under the law covenant for over 1500 yrs, transitioning obviously would be difficult, and many would likely question if it was the correct thing to do. Many of us were clinging to the law, that we had lived all of our lives.

Jehovah's witnesses still see that struggle today, for instance, many faiths still observe the sabbath, but everybody I have ever known violate it, so under law they would have to be executed. Paul was addressing that to the congregation in Galatia.

I think you fully understand the account in Romans sir, Paul was pointing out that those who serve God under the new covenant are the real Jews, not those who actually sprang from Israel.

 

[robert derrick]

Hi Bob, Early in the new covenant as you can imagine, many were truly confused about what was going on. We were under the law covenant for over 1500 yrs, transitioning obviously would be difficult, and many would likely question if it was the correct thing to do. Many of us were clinging to the law, that we had lived all of our lives.

Jehovah's witnesses still see that struggle today, for instance, many faiths still observe the sabbath, but everybody I have ever known violate it, so under law they would have to be executed. Paul was addressing that to the congregation in Galatia.

I think you fully understand the account in Romans sir, Paul was pointing out that those who serve God under the new covenant are the real Jews, not those who actually sprang from Israel.

Frankly, I don't think these Christians care a bit about the 'real bloodline' of the Jews. I am convinced it is all about keeping such a bloodline around, because their endtime prophecy beliefs are based upon years of study and are completely unwilling to change any of it.

It really is similar to the seed of the flesh refusing to see anything other than Moses of old when reading Scripture. As you said 1500 years of deep study and commitment. So these people likewise are unwilling to see anyone other than a physical seed of promise when reading the prophecies of old.

The thing is I was raised just like them and put in as much time into it as most. But when Scripture speaks plainly and distinctly, Scripture must be recieved, no matter what else, must be cast out. Much like them of old that refused Christ needed be cast out to make way for the new.

Being confronted with finding out that what you think you really know and cherish is not what you ought to know and believe, is a hard sell under best of circumstances.

But then that is what Jesus said was necessary if we were to be guided by Him into all truth: And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And so, the real question is what did God mean by it. James may indeed have even thought he was specifically speaking to his kinsmen according to the flesh (Rom 9:3), that believe, but that doesnt matter to God, nor to us.

So James did not know what He was writing about, but God has revealed it to you?

what authority do you claim to tell us this lofty revelation.

James was an Apostle to teh Jews. He was part of the early diaspora and knew of many Jews who converted to the faith throughout the empire! It is said James was flayed alive in India!

James was the titular head of the church headquartered in Jerusalem. Paul accepted His decision about gentile believers. The term in Christ means that there is no advantage being anything. all have equal access. It never was designed to be that one lost their ethnic heritage. James wrote to Jews and His Epistle has a very Jewish flavor to it! JUst as Paul focused on Gentiles (though He always went to the synagogue first in a town if there was one) Peter and James focused much on Jewish people to spread the good news to them.

 

[robert derrick]

So James did not know what He was writing about, but God has revealed it to you?

what authority do you claim to tell us this lofty revelation.

James was an Apostle to teh Jews. He was part of the early diaspora and knew of many Jews who converted to the faith throughout the empire! It is said James was flayed alive in India!

James was the titular head of the church headquartered in Jerusalem. Paul accepted His decision about gentile believers. The term in Christ means that there is no advantage being anything. all have equal access. It never was designed to be that one lost their ethnic heritage. James wrote to Jews and His Epistle has a very Jewish flavor to it! JUst as Paul focused on Gentiles (though He always went to the synagogue first in a town if there was one) Peter and James focused much on Jewish people to spread the good news to them.

So James did not know what He was writing about

The prophets did not know all they were writing about, as Peter says: Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (1 Peter 1)

The prophets searched their own writing from God to know what they had written about, even as do we.

Did John know everything he was writing in Revelation? Did Paul know what he was talking about, when he first told the Corinthians not to keep company with any fornicator, until God corrected him to include only those known as a brother?

The infallibility of Scripture is true, but that does not include infallible minds of them that wrote it. They were as the pen of the ready Writer of God: does the pen have to know all about what it is writing? No. Does the clay need to know what God has shaped it thus? No.

No doubt, many of the prophets and apostles themselves, after accurately recording what God told them, would go back and read it for themselves, for full understanding. Wouldn't you? Have you ever written something by 'stream of consciousness', that you knew was true in your heart, and then go back to actually read it for yourself, to see exactly what you were saying?

 

[robert derrick]

So James did not know what He was writing about, but God has revealed it to you?

what authority do you claim to tell us this lofty revelation.

James was an Apostle to teh Jews. He was part of the early diaspora and knew of many Jews who converted to the faith throughout the empire! It is said James was flayed alive in India!

James was the titular head of the church headquartered in Jerusalem. Paul accepted His decision about gentile believers. The term in Christ means that there is no advantage being anything. all have equal access. It never was designed to be that one lost their ethnic heritage. James wrote to Jews and His Epistle has a very Jewish flavor to it! JUst as Paul focused on Gentiles (though He always went to the synagogue first in a town if there was one) Peter and James focused much on Jewish people to spread the good news to them.

what authority do you claim to tell us this lofty revelation.

The only authority that counts: Scripture written for us by God, not the minds of the prophets and apostles that wrote it, nor them that have read them since and made comment.

1. There are no more Jews after the flesh with God, neither is that circumcision that is outwardly. (Rom 2:25-19)

2. The old seed of promise by flesh made themselves uncircumcision and were all cast away from the holy olive tree, so that only seed of faith of Abraham and circumcision of heart and are all in Israel of God. (Gal 6:16)

And so, God could not have been writing new covenant Scripture of Christ to a seed of promise by flesh that did not exist, especially not as His children of promise by faith (Gal 4:28).

Therefore, why would God call them the 'twelve tribes'?

Either God was writing exclusively in James to a church of believers made solely of those who were grafted in again, along with a long-used customary title of the 'twelve tribes', that is now in name only.

Or, God is bestowing upon all believers in Christ the honorary title of the twelve tribes, since after all they are all come in to Israel by faith.

Or, James the 'apostle to the Jews' is now bestowing that old honorary title upon all believers of Christ, and declaring with God's will, that since they are now the Israel of God, and so altogether they are the 12 tribes, not by particular name of tribal head after the flesh, such as Judah, Benjamin, Levi, Isachar, etc..., but by inheritance of faith:

For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise...But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe...And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3)

Who is the seed of Abraham and of promise as Isaac was (Gal 4)? Then, being the seed of Christ with seed of God, they are not only the children and inheritance of Israel, but in Christ they are before Jacob, as Abraham and Isaac.

What exactly have the Gentiles be come in to? What is the holy olive tree? What have they of the unbelieving flesh been cast away from ,and grafted in again by repentance and faith in jesus?

Is not the holy olive tree of God the Israel of God? It is the Israel of God; otherwise, them cast away from and grafted back into were not of Israel in the first place.

The claim of inheritance by Christians in Christ Jesus, whether grafted in or grafted in again, is not given by Israel, but rather by God Himself as Father, and the King and God of Israel, who was before Abraham. Israel is simply the name given us as prince with power of God (Gen 32:28), and twelve tribes is the title born of the name.

The name 'Israel' is not some mystical name that has been elevated above and apart from the One who made it and gave it to a man of faith. That name does not exclusively belong to a people of flesh, that proved themselves once and for all to not be worthy of it, by having crucified the Lord and God who gave it in the first place.

'Israel' has become an idolized name by them that claim sole ownership thereof by birth of flesh, as well as them that support them in it to sustain interpretation of prophesy that they cherish above all things, even Scripture itself.

 

[robert derrick]

So James did not know what He was writing about, but God has revealed it to you?

what authority do you claim to tell us this lofty revelation.

James was an Apostle to teh Jews. He was part of the early diaspora and knew of many Jews who converted to the faith throughout the empire! It is said James was flayed alive in India!

James was the titular head of the church headquartered in Jerusalem. Paul accepted His decision about gentile believers. The term in Christ means that there is no advantage being anything. all have equal access. It never was designed to be that one lost their ethnic heritage. James wrote to Jews and His Epistle has a very Jewish flavor to it! JUst as Paul focused on Gentiles (though He always went to the synagogue first in a town if there was one) Peter and James focused much on Jewish people to spread the good news to them.

It never was designed to be that one lost their ethnic heritage.

The lost heritage was that of birth of Abraham by promise. That seed of the flesh has been all cast away.

The only seed of promise of Abraham is now that of faith, and are all Israel together, whether grafted in from among the Gentiles that know not God, or grafted in again from among them called the Jews, and are not by flesh anymore.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3)

The old seed of promise by birth of flesh in natural bodies no longer is alive on earth in sight of God. They are not children of bondage by Hagar, both in unbelief and flesh.

The seed of promise by birth of Spirit in natural bodies alive on earth in sight of God, are the children of Abraham and of God by faith, born after the Spirit, even as Isaac was:

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. (Gal 4:28-29)

Even so it is now: they who are born after the Spirit as Isaac ar the children of promise of Abraham as Isaac in the flesh. Not a spiritual body, children, and seed only, even as Isaac was not a spiritual child and seed of promise only, but in the flesh as Abraham was.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Frankly, I don't think these Christians care a bit about the 'real bloodline' of the Jews. I am convinced it is all about keeping such a bloodline around, because their endtime prophecy beliefs are based upon years of study and are completely unwilling to change any of it.

It really is similar to the seed of the flesh refusing to see anything other than Moses of old when reading Scripture. As you said 1500 years of deep study and commitment. So these people likewise are unwilling to see anyone other than a physical seed of promise when reading the prophecies of old.

The thing is I was raised just like them and put in as much time into it as most. But when Scripture speaks plainly and distinctly, Scripture must be recieved, no matter what else, must be cast out. Much like them of old that refused Christ needed be cast out to make way for the new.

Being confronted with finding out that what you think you really know and cherish is not what you ought to know and believe, is a hard sell under best of circumstances.

But then that is what Jesus said was necessary if we were to be guided by Him into all truth: And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee.

Yes sir I agree, who is or who is not a Jew is inconsequential to me. Clearly with the records destroyed in Jerusalem in 70CE anyone who thinks they are a Jew by birth is speculating anyway. As far as I know those records have not been recovered. I am only concerned with the Jews of the new covenant, Christs brothers, as we are judged on what we do for them. Mat 25:40 We need to be able to identify them and go with them Zech 8:23

 

[robert derrick]

Yes sir I agree, who is or who is not a Jew is inconsequential to me. Clearly with the records destroyed in Jerusalem in 70CE anyone who thinks they are a Jew by birth is speculating anyway. As far as I know those records have not been recovered. I am only concerned with the Jews of the new covenant, Christs brothers, as we are judged on what we do for them. Mat 25:40 We need to be able to identify them and go with them Zech 8:23

What they have now is an historical culture kept in a false religion, called the Jews' religion, and they are welcome to it. I have no personal axe to grind with them or anyone else, so long as they don't use their false religion to steal, kill, and destroy others.

Some person suggested these 'Jews' were persecuted even more for refusing to identify them as special people to God. It is a ridiculous statement. The devil doesn't persecute his own. If they have suffered at the hands of men, it is according to their own prophecy that they would be miserably destroyed for killing the Son of the vineyard's Lord.

In the Old Covenant God would allow a temporary persecution at the hands of the uncircumcised, but now He simply leaves them to themselves as any other people, so that they now defend themselves on their own, and more power to them in their own nation they call 'Israel'.

They wanted to be an independent nation unto themselves with their own religion and 'God', and they have had it since the cross, and they always will have it like every other nation on the earth ruled by man, until the return.