The 144,000 before God at the end.

[rebuilder 454]

You are wrong because you don't understand the biblical types.

In the first place the chapter and verse divisions in the Revelation - in the Bible - were only added in 1227 A.D. Revelation chapters 12-13 start with the beginning of the Age - the birth of Christ and the ascension of Christ - and close at the end of the Age with the mark of the beast being the culmination of Satan's war against the rest of the woman's seed.

The Bible symbolically/metaphorically refers to trouble and persecution coming upon God's elect people as a flood:

19 So they shall fear the name of the LORD from the west, and His glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall make him flee.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and to those who turn from transgression in Jacob, says the LORD. -- Isa.59.

1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower which is on the head of the fat valleys of those who are overcome with wine!
2 Behold, the Lord is a mighty and strong one, like a hailstorm, a destroying storm; like a flood of mighty waters overflowing, He casts down to the earth with the hand.
3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trampled under foot -- Isa.28.

The Bible is never inconsistent with it's own established symbolism. Persecution of the woman = a flood. You are making the Bible inconsistent with its own symbolism.

The woman is true Israel. The Jewish saints. The flood is the persecution sent out against her by the leaders of unbelieving Israel, but she is kept safe and fed (with the Word of God) in the wilderness. The earth swallowing up the flood is the destruction of the kingdom and seat of power of the Jewish leaders who were persecuting her. The Biblical type is the earth swallowing up those who began persecuting Moses in the wilderness.​

Uh, God sent the flood that carried noah high into the sky.
Not the devil.
Noah was gathered into the sky as the bible educates us DURING THE FLOOD.

 

[rebuilder 454]

noah over a mile into the sky DURING THE FLOOD.
Then RETURNS back to earth post flood.
Got to love it, enjoy it, and the favor of celebrating Gods word.
" let my word be confirmed by 2 or 3 witnesses.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Correct.


Correct.


The 144,000 are first fruits that are raptured to heaven.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Here is the harvest.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Here is the result of that harvest.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The harvest occurs at the 6th seal. Here is another view of that harvest.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


The Great Tribulation does not last 7 years. The 70th week of Daniel lasts 7 years.

The great tribulation does not begin until the abomination is set up which occurs in the midst of the week.

Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.


Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Agreed, other than the Church will be on earth during the first year of the 7 year period.


Agreed.

Agreed.


Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Not correct. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 shows Jesus comes in power and glory. This is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal as it is MARKED by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. This also the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14. We can prove that by the great tribulation in Revelation 14, which is the fifth seal.

Nope
"Power and great glory"
The bible says the mid trib gathering of rev 14 is By Jesus SITTING on a cloud HOLDING A SICKLE.

Your model is flawed in that you need the sitting on a cloud transposed into Power and great glory , which is rev 19.

The innumerable number is not rev 14.
You simply did that with no bases of timing.

 

[Timtofly]

No. Daniel, Matthew, Mark, and Luke provide complementary accounts of the same historical and spiritual watershed event -- the physical destruction of Jerusalem and all old covenant vestiges.

Great, now you can put the resurrection of the dead as already happened, you would avoid contradicting yourself, by claiming it is still future as well. Death was finished in the old covenant, no? That word "all" would include death as well, so a resurrection of the dead would have been realized since death was gone and done away with.

 

[rwb]

Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest. All go to heaven..........and are seen in heaven when the marriage supper takes place. After the marriage supper the armies of heaven return to the earth and Armageddon occurs. At the 7th trumpet, Jesus sets up His kingdom on earth.

If you expect me or anyone to agree with your opinions, you're going to have to prove what you allege! I'm really not interested in what you think is truth, but what you can prove to be truth.

 

[rwb]

The 144,000 are first fruits that are raptured to heaven.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

They were not raptured to heaven. They, as spiritual body of believers ascended to heaven as living souls without physical body after the resurrection of Christ. Scripture tells us faithful saints who had died before Christ lived and died were captives in the grave until Christ descended down, before ascending up, to rescue them.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

These saints, now spiritually alive in heaven with all the saints that join them after physical death there, shall return with the Lord when their physical immortal & incorruptible body is resurrected from the graves (last trump). The spirits that return with Christ shall once again give our physical bodies life, just as the spirit (breath of God) gave man life in the beginning.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[The Light]

If you expect me or anyone to agree with your opinions, you're going to have to prove what you allege! I'm really not interested in what you think is truth, but what you can prove to be truth.

Bub. You can't see that much is obvious. I have used scripture over and over and over to prove your doctrine is incorrect. Are you able to see and understand what is clearly written? It certainly doesn't appear so.

I use the written Word of God for my doctrine. You spiritualize the written Word of God for your doctrine and act like you are proving something. There are five wise and five foolish.

 

[rwb]

Bub. You can't see that much is obvious. I have used scripture over and over and over to prove your doctrine is incorrect. Are you able to see and understand what is clearly written? It certainly doesn't appear so.

I use the written Word of God for my doctrine. You spiritualize the written Word of God for your doctrine and act like you are proving something. There are five wise and five foolish.

No you TWIST the Word of God to try and force fit it to your imagined biblical doctrine. That's why I would like to know what verses you've twisted to fit this absurd opinion that the rapture has already occurred for 144,000 saints????

 

[rwb]

Uh, God sent the flood that carried noah high into the sky.
Not the devil.
Noah was gathered into the sky as the bible educates us DURING THE FLOOD.

Another display of whimsical imagination!! The Bible never speaks of Noah being carried on the ark "high into the sky"!!!

 

[The Light]

They were not raptured to heaven. They, as spiritual body of believers ascended to heaven as living souls without physical body after the resurrection of Christ. Scripture tells us faithful saints who had died before Christ lived and died were captives in the grave until Christ descended down, before ascending up, to rescue them.

Yes they were raptured to heaven. They are first fruits before the throne. When Christ was first fruits of those that sleep, He rose from the dead.

1 Cor 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Those 144,000 have not died yet as they will not see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. You are warned not to be ignorant of this FACT.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

These saints, now spiritually alive in heaven with all the saints that join them after physical death there, shall return with the Lord when their physical immortal & incorruptible body is resurrected from the graves (last trump). The spirits that return with Christ shall once again give our physical bodies life, just as the spirit (breath of God) gave man life in the beginning.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

As I said, the fullness of the Gentiles has not come in yet so the 144,000 first fruits have not happened yet.

This is way past your paygrade but the dead that Christ brings with Him are not spirits. The dead Christ brings with Him when He returns for the alive that remain have already been raised for the dead and have new bodies. The alive that remain will not proceed the dead in Christ.

It appears that you don't heed these warnings not to be ignorant. Here is another one.

1 Thes 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The dead rise first and the alive remain. When He returns for the alive, He will bring the dead with Him.

 

[The Light]

No you TWIST the Word of God to try and force fit it to your imagined biblical doctrine. That's why I would like to know what verses you've twisted to fit this absurd opinion that the rapture has already occurred for 144,000 saints????

Please show my post where I say the rapture has already occurred for the 144.000. Because they are not even believers yet, let alone dead and risen to heaven as first fruits.

It seems it is you that claim they are first fruits as spirits.

 

[rwb]

Yes they were raptured to heaven. They are first fruits before the throne. When Christ was first fruits of those that sleep, He rose from the dead.

1 Cor 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Those 144,000 have not died yet as they will not see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. You are warned not to be ignorant of this FACT.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Thank you for supplying Scripture. Now we can discuss how or why we discern particular passages. The verse from 1Cor 15 tells us Christ is the firstfruits of those who have died. In context Paul says again that Christ is the firstfruits of the dead. Paul is referring back to what he had already said regarding Christ being dead and being risen from the dead to life again. Paul is showing us that Christ, being the first to die and rise to life again is the firstfruits of those who have physically died before him. Paul says nothing about the physically dead being raptured to heaven. Nor does he say those who have died are firstfruits before the throne.

1 Corinthians 15:23 (KJV) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (KJV) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Paul goes on to show what he means when he writes "every man in his own order"......"afterward they that are Christ's at His coming."

Edit to note I prematurely posted before completing, sorry about that. I've run out of time, but plan to come back to this as soon as possible.

 

[The Light]

No.
That is all your transposing of it.
Jesus uses lot and noah in the same setting.
Exact same setting.

No sir. Jesus uses the story of Noah to show the Church is sealed in the ark 6 days before the flood, just as the Church will be in the ark of heaven 6 years before destruction.

The story of Lot is the second harvest. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came, even as the very year the 12 tribes are raptured destruction will come. The wrath of God is one year.

There is NOTHING in noah of a postrib harvest.
Not a thing.

Agreed. The story of Noah represents the pre trib rapture.

You transposed it using a "7 day before flood" dynamic.
You made that into mid trib rapture.
Jesus did not do that.

No you are misunderstanding what I am saying because you are not understanding the the tribulation of those days is over at the 6th seal. There is no midtrib rapture.

BTW, when you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals.

 

[ewq1938]

The earth swallowing up the flood is the destruction of the kingdom and seat of power of the Jewish leaders who were persecuting her.​

No, that is not who pursues her. It was satan himself.

 

[The Light]

Thank you for supplying Scripture. Now we can discuss how or why we discern particular passages. The verse from 1Cor 15 tells us Christ is the firstfruits of those who have died. In context Paul says again that Christ is the firstfruits of the dead. Paul is referring back to what he had already said regarding Christ being dead and being risen from the dead to life again. Paul is showing us that Christ, being the first to die and rise to life again is the firstfruits of those who have physically died before him. Paul says nothing about the physically dead being raptured to heaven. Nor does he say those who have died are firstfruits before the throne.

1 Corinthians 15:23 (KJV) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (KJV) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Paul goes on to show what he means when he writes "every man in his own order"......"afterward they that are Christ's at His coming."

You are welcome brother.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

There is an order given. First fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming.

BUT...............only those that look for Him will He appear a second time unto salvation.

Heb 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

We are told to watch and be ready, for He is coming in an hour that we think not.

Matthew 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The Lord will come for the dead in Christ is the spring.

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

The Lord will return with the dead in Christ when He comes for the alive that remain in the summer.

Song of Solomon 2
13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

This will be a secret rapture. Only those looking for Him will He appear a second time. Why do you think Satan has spent so much time and effort on the lie of alien abductions. As the time approaches this lie will gain steam.

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in part Israel will have its eyes opened.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Then we have first fruits of the 12 tribes of Israel as the 1st harvest, the grain harvest is past.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Then the second harvest occurs at the 6th seal

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This occurs immediately after the tribulation of those days and then the wrath of God begins after the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet sounds.

 

[covenantee]

We all get it. You're obsessed with what was and do not believe Jesus spoke about what will be - the signs of His coming and of the end of the Age, even though the sign of His coming and the end of the Age was one of the questions His disciples had asked Him.

Babylon had already been judged thousands of years ago, and hundreds of years before the time of Christ, but the very same language used by the prophets in reference to Babylon's destruction is also talking about the destruction of Babylon the Great in the Revelation.

So by your rule, Babylon the Great in the Revelation is talking about the destruction of ancient Babylon, because the same language is used for both.

So you ignore the fact that the signs of His coming and the end of the Age is one of the questions the disciples asked Jesus and have convinced yourself that the entire Olivet Discourse is about 70 A.D.

According to your rule, In His Revelation Jesus was talking about a historical event that had taken place hundreds of years before His time when He gave John this:​

View attachment 36990

View attachment 36991

View attachment 36992

Your references to Revelation, Babylon, and Jeremiah are not included in Jesus' warnings about deceivers, and are not part of the historical fulfillments of those warnings.

Your references are irrelevant to the irrefutable historical evidences of the fulfillments of Jesus' prophecies.

Why not address the content of the post -- historical evidences of fulfillments of Jesus' prophecies -- instead of indulging in futurized speculation?

 

[covenantee]

He has the right to quote historical sources regarding history. Just we have to be careful when people "quote" Josephus if they don't give book, Chapter and Section they're getting the history from. If the Bible can be misinterpreted, then so can any historian's works.

Yes, he certainly does have the right, but he doesn't believe in the right.

I've never yet seen him present a relevant legitimate citation of Josephus which includes a verbatim quote, source, and date.

If you can find one, please post it.

 

[PinSeeker]

If I choose not to directly give you the answer to your question about what I believe when there are scriptures that provide the answer...

But different people believe different things about any one certain passage of Scripture, Fullness of the Gentiles. If you don't want to have ~ or can't have ~ a direct conversation regarding any one passage of Scripture with another question, then, okay, we just won't have it. I asked you a direct question, person to person, and expected a direct, person to person answer. In your answer, I certainly would have expected a reference to Scripture, but... yeah.

, and I give you the scriptures because....

I have the Scriptures. I can read God's Word just as well as you can (probably :)). Now, if you were to use a verse or passage to support what you say in answer to the question... that's all well and good, in the course of discussion. Would have been, anyway...

...you won't comment on the scriptures but "require" a direct answer, well then so be it.

I'll be glad to comment on the Scriptures; I always love to do so. If you don't want to engage in a one-to-one conversation about the Scriptures and how you personally see this or that in Scripture ~ because yes, Scripture is what it is, but that doesn't necessarily mean that any to people see or understand this or that in Scripture the same way ~ then so be it.

I never realized that I would be attacked with mild sarcasm for pointing you to scripture instead of giving you my own answer.

See above. If you can't or won't have a personal conversation, then so be it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

If the Scripture that correctly answers their question is rejected by them = then there is no other answer!

I'm not "rejecting the Scripture(s)" in any way, David. That's a silly thing to say, quite frankly.

What I was looking for ~ earnestly ~ was a personal answer to a personal question, and then maybe some discussion. That's how personal conversations work... or, at least, should work. :)

This is a discussion forum. If one is unwilling (or unable) to engage in discussion, then that at least sort of begs the question why they are even here ~ as well as, well, off-putting to one who is earnestly trying to engage in such ~ and even antithetical to the very purpose of this discussion forum, which is to be "a place of scholarly discussion, friendship and an environment where members can grow, learn and share their experiences in Christ."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

Ah, the blindness. What do you have to do to open your eyes to Scriptural historical reality?

The grammatical antecedent/referent of "prince" in verse 26 is "Messiah the Prince" in verse 25.

Both Romans and Jews were Messiah's people used to accomplish His purposes of judgment and destruction upon Jerusalem and the nation of Israel which had rejected Him.

So the people of Jesus were the Romans?

Where do you come up with this stuff?