The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Zao is life]

No one has incorrectly said it was Luke's or I would have corrected that. It also does not say God's wrath, just wrath. If this is the trib period, and it is in every OD we have, then it is satan's wrath as per Rev 12:17.

The woman of Revelation 20 began to be persecuted the moment her Seed had ascended to God and to His throne.

She is God's elect Israel (those who were the seed of Abraham and who were also of the faith of Abraham), represented after the ascension of Jesus by the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

The rest of her seed in Rev.12:17 are the churches established by the apostles.

The earth swallowing up the flood that the dragon sent after the woman takes us back to the earth swallowing up those who opposed Moses in the wilderness, and in Revelation 12 it refers to what happened in 70 A.D when the wrath of God came upon Jerusalem and the temple, ending the opposition and persecution of the Jewish disciples by the Jewish leaders.

The 3/12 years following the Messiah being cut off in the midst of the 70th week is a literal time times and a half a time, but Rev.12:6 &14 s a symbolic reference to the 40 years in the wilderness between the resurrection of the woman's Seed, and 70 A.D where the unbelieving Jews perished in unbelief in the same wilderness of their unbelief, which is also mentioned in Hebrews.

Ever since then the dragon has concentrated his war against the rest of the woman's seed, i.e the church. This war will culminate in Rev.13:7 and following - the mark of the beast.

 

[PinSeeker]

After the resurrection our immortality will still be in Christ and not in ourselves.​

Hm, well, that's... ambiguous. :) It's not really an answer to the question I asked you. I agree that we will not be immortal until after the resurrection (if that's what you're saying).

I asked you if you thought our salvation (not immortality) ~ eternal life ~ was secure in Christ when we are born again of the Spirit. It's a yes/no question, to which the answer is yes, but of course at that time (and throughout the rest of our lives) we are still not immortal, i.e., we are still slated to die physically at some point. When we are resurrected (when Christ returns), our spirits will be reunited with our physical bodies, and we will be immortal... imperishable, as Paul puts it in 1 Corinthians 15. From your answer, I still do not really know whether you agree with this or not, but I guess in a certain sense it matters not, as what's true is true... :) ...the correct understanding of "OSAS." :)

As for immortality, everyone will be immortal after the resurrection, it's just that many... :)... will be... elsewhere... after the final Judgment, not present in the new heaven and new earth, but, well, having departed obediently from the Lord, elsewhere ~ resurrected to judgment and entered into punishment, which is no laughing matter, to be sure.

Adam believed he would not die.

Not so sure about that. Adam never says anything, he just goes along with Eve. And actually, Paul tells us that Eve was deceived by Satan (1 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Timothy 2:14), but Adam was not (1 Timothy elsewhere (1 Timothy 2:14), we see that Eve was deceived into believing she (and Adam) would not die. So to what you say here, I would say that it was Adam's responsibility to keep his wife from this deception, and he did not do that, so his sin was of far greater consequence that Eve's. He knew full well God's instructions of Genesis 2:17 and what he and Eve were not supposed to do and what the consequence would be but did not fulfill his responsibility as head of his wife and step in and correct Eve and keep her from sinning... for one reason or another.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Zao is life]

Hm, well, that's... ambiguous. :) It's not really an answer to the question I asked you. I agree that we will not be immortal until after the resurrection (if that's what you're saying).

I asked you if you thought our salvation (not immortality) ~ eternal life ~ was secure in Christ when we are born again of the Spirit. It's a yes/no question, to which the answer is yes, but of course at that time (and throughout the rest of our lives) we are still not immortal, i.e., we are still slated to die physically at some point. When we are resurrected (when Christ returns), our spirits will be reunited with our physical bodies, and we will be immortal... imperishable, as Paul puts it in 1 Corinthians 15. From your answer, I still do not really know whether you agree with this or not, but I guess in a certain sense it matters not, as what's true is true... :) ...the correct understanding of "OSAS." :)

As for immortality, everyone will be immortal after the resurrection, it's just that many... :)... will be... elsewhere... after the final Judgment, not present in the new heaven and new earth, but, well, having departed obediently from the Lord, elsewhere ~ resurrected to judgment and entered into punishment, which is no laughing matter, to be sure.


Not so sure about that. Adam never says anything, he just goes along with Eve. And actually, Paul tells us that Eve was deceived by Satan (1 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Timothy 2:14), but Adam was not (1 Timothy elsewhere (1 Timothy 2:14), we see that Eve was deceived into believing she (and Adam) would not die. So to what you say here, I would say that it was Adam's responsibility to keep his wife from this deception, and he did not do that, so his sin was of far greater consequence that Eve's. He knew full well God's instructions of Genesis 2:17 and what he and Eve were not supposed to do and what the consequence would be but did not fulfill his responsibility as head of his wife and step in and correct Eve and keep her from sinning... for one reason or another.

Grace and peace to you.

The answer to your question is the answer Jesus already gave you, not the answer I give you. I gave you the answer Jesus gave us 2,000 years ago.

The question you need to ask yourself is if Jesus, in saying that if we do not abide in Vine, His Word will not abide in us and we will be cast out as a branch and be withered,

is placing the responsibility upon us to abide in the Vine?

He is faithful. He has died. His blood has cleansed us. He is the Word - we need to abide in Him.

Did Adam abide in the Word while he was still living forever when he believed the lie? Did God breathing His eternal life into Adam mean that if Adam did not abide in the Word/the Vine he would not die? Was God unfaithful when Adam stopped abiding in the Word/Vine? Or was it Adam's responsibility to abide in the Word?

@PinSeeker

Was Adam not responsible because he and Eve had been deceived by the lie?

Yet Adam knew the Word of God from the lie - God had said it to Adam directly: "... dying you will die"

So Adam knew the difference between the above and

"... you will not surely die".

Jesus has told us something about abiding in Him (the Word) pretty directly, and has stated pretty directly what the consequences will be for the branches that do not abide in the Vine - and He said something very similar to what God said to Adam.

Jesus has answered your question, and even if He did not answer directly, it's not up to me to answer your question. Not my place.

You decide.

 

[ewq1938]

The rest of her seed in Rev.12:17 are the churches established by the apostles.

And the war and wrath against them is the trib.

Revelation 12 it refers to what happened in 70 A.D when the wrath of God came upon Jerusalem and the temple, ending the opposition and persecution of the Jewish disciples by the Jewish leaders.

There is nothing about 70AD in Rev 12, nor of God's wrath.

 

[Zao is life]

And the war and wrath against them is the trib.





There is nothing about 70AD in Rev 12, nor of God's wrath.

70 A.D was God's wrath coming upon Jerusalem. Not Rome's. Rome was just the instrument. The earth swallowing up the flood takes us back to Israelites opposing Moses in the wilderness and the earth swallowing them up. It was God's judgment upon them for their unbelief and rebellion.

@ewq1938

THE BIBLE ON:-

1. Wrath.
2. Judgment.
3. Universal Judgment.

WRATH

God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7 - it's called wrath by the Bible).

JUDGMENT

God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger, but it’s not always a final judgement nor is it always a universal judgment:

A final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God (called wrath by the Bible) came upon the city at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon, but a final judgement did come upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city a few decades later.

Hundreds of years later, Jesus prophesied about another judgement that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and He mentions this judgement as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) upon this people." (Luke 21:23).

Notice the above is not called tribulation in the above verse, but wrath.

UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT

The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being universally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being universally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

 

[Zao is life]

And the war and wrath against them is the trib.





There is nothing about 70AD in Rev 12, nor of God's wrath.

There is nothing in Rev 12 about Israel Jesus and the apostles and the churches either. It's all about stars and a woman and her Seed.

Yet it's all there. Mentioned in symbology.

Same with 70 A.D - the earth swallowing up the flood. You've just attached different things to the symbology than I have, and so because I've attached different things to the symbolism than you have, I'm wrong and you're right.

No problem. So be it. But not Amen :)

 

[ewq1938]

70 A.D was God's wrath coming upon Jerusalem. Not Rome's. Rome was just the instrument.

It doesn't match the events. Rome ruled over the area and had for a long time. Not until some Jews rebelled and attacked did Rome attack back and defeat them. Doesn't sound like God was punishing them for what happened decades earlier regarding Jesus. It is clearly Rome's wrath about an attack on them.

The earth swallowing up the flood takes us back to Israelites opposing Moses in the wilderness and the earth swallowing them up.

That ignores the context of Rev 12 which is post-Christ's birth, death and ascension. It cannot be about anything before Christ's birth because that is where the chapter begins.

 

[ewq1938]

There is nothing in Rev 12 about Israel Jesus and the apostles and the churches either. It's all about stars and a woman and her Seed.

Jesus is referred to, and Christians are mentioned in the last verse. Rev 12 starts with Christ's birth, goes through his death and ascension. Everything after is after those events.

Same with 70 A.D - the earth swallowing up the flood. You've just attached different things to the symbology than I have, and so because I've attached different things to the symbolism than you have, I'm wrong and you're right.

You are wrong because you don't understand the timeframe and context of Rev 12. There is also nothing about 70Ad at all in that chapter. Not a word about the temple being destroyed, or Jerusalem, or even a successful attack on Jews! The woman is safe through the whole chapter. Only Christians are targets in the last verse and they are the only ones satan is successful against as seen in chp 13.

 

[Timtofly]

It says they are TEMPORARILY confined

Changing the words of Revelation....

"that they should rest yet for a little season"

I used to think that taking a nap used to be prison and torture imposed by my parents from preventing me to enjoy my afternoon.

 

[Timtofly]

Name for me the correct name for the 7 yr period

The Messiah the Prince

That is what Gabriel told Daniel. Jesus on earth is the 70th week. 3.5 years as Messiah. 3.5 years as the Prince to come.

 

[covenantee]

No. All refer to the the tribulation that the living stones of the N.T Temple will face that is coming at the end of the age, and return of Christ, and one of them refers also to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

No. Daniel, Matthew, Mark, and Luke provide complementary accounts of the same historical and spiritual watershed event -- the physical destruction of Jerusalem and all old covenant vestiges.

Scripture interprets Scripture.

The four authors did not send mixed messages.

Their accounts are corroborated by the eyewitness testimonies of Josephus et al.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus is referred to, and Christians are mentioned in the last verse. Rev 12 starts with Christ's birth, goes through his death and ascension. Everything after is after those events.





You are wrong because you don't understand the timeframe and context of Rev 12. There is also nothing about 70Ad at all in that chapter. Not a word about the temple being destroyed, or Jerusalem, or even a successful attack on Jews! The woman is safe through the whole chapter. Only Christians are targets in the last verse and they are the only ones satan is successful against as seen in chp 13.

God absolutely was punishing them for murdering their Messiah and refusing to repent after Pentecost/Holy Spirit Outpouring = whereby God, once again, sent WITNESSES for them to REPENT = they refused and the Judgment fell in 70 AD = 70 YEARS = Why 70 YEARS?

 

[PinSeeker]

The answer to your question is the answer Jesus already gave you, not the answer I give you.

Well, sure, but I'm asking you what you think, Fullness of the Gentiles. Do you always carry on "conversations" like this?

I gave you the answer Jesus gave us 2,000 years ago.

Everyone here thinks that about everything they say. :) I'm not saying you didn't, but still, I'm trying to have a conversation with you. My goodness...

The question you need to ask yourself...

Nope. Stop there. If you can't answer a very un-complicated question... and maybe have a brief conversation about it... then, stop there.

Was Adam not responsible because he and Eve had been deceived by the lie?

Ah, so this I will be happy to speak to, because I brought it up. :) There is nothing in God's word that says ~ or intimates ~ that Adam was deceived as Eve was, and Paul says explicitly that it was Eve and not Adam who was deceived:

"For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor..."​

[1 Timothy 2:13-14]​

Wait, maybe you think that's not true, because Paul said (wrote) it, and not Jesus... :) I'm... kidding. :)

But to answer your question here, as I said in my previous post, Adam's guilt was far greater than Eve's, because, well...

Yet Adam knew the Word of God from the lie - God had said it to Adam directly: "... dying you will die" So Adam knew the difference between the above and "... you will not surely die".

Right. Exactly. Is there an echo in here... here... here... here? :) It should have been obvious in my previous post that I agree with this, and therefore no need to... expound. :) I did refer specifically to what God said to Adam in Genesis 2:17, which... you do again here.

To add a little something here, it was Adam's responsibility to his wife to tell her what God said (because she had not yet been created when God told Adam that), and he obviously did, because she repeated to Satan (in Genesis 3:3) what God said ~ although it's very interesting that she added the thing about touching it; God could have instructed Adam not to touch the fruit, but according to the text, He only told Adam not to eat it; Eve's adding that is very, very interesting... :)

Jesus has answered your question, and even if He did not answer directly, it's not up to me to answer your question. Not my place.

You decide.

Thanks for the "conversation." :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Zao is life]

That ignores the context of Rev 12 which is post-Christ's birth, death and ascension. It cannot be about anything before Christ's birth because that is where the chapter begins.

You've just resorted to pretending that you don't understand what a biblical type and its antitype is. Unfortunately we all know better regarding your understand regarding biblical types and anitypes and what you just pretended you don't understand.​

It doesn't match the events. Rome ruled over the area and had for a long time. Not until some Jews rebelled and attacked did Rome attack back and defeat them. Doesn't sound like God was punishing them for what happened decades earlier regarding Jesus. It is clearly Rome's wrath about an attack on them.

God gave them 40 years in the wilderness while they wandered in their unbelief before He had Joshua and Caleb lead the generation born in the wilderness into the promised land. The rest perished without entering the promised land. Jesus was crucified in 30 A.D. After 40 years of Jews - first the apostles - preaching the gospel to the other Jews in Judea, God allowed the events to unfold that exiled them all from Judea, and their many centuries of being scattered among the nations began.

Rome could do nothing without God allowing it.​

 

[Zao is life]

No. Daniel, Matthew, Mark, and Luke provide complementary accounts of the same historical and spiritual watershed event -- the physical destruction of Jerusalem and all old covenant vestiges.

Scripture interprets Scripture.

The four authors did not send mixed messages.

Their accounts are corroborated by the eyewitness testimonies of Josephus et al.

In one of my previous posts I posted the first thing - the very first thing - Jesus spoke about after sitting down on the Mount of Olives in all three synoptic gospels - and I placed it side by side for you - which is the tribulation and the persecution that the living stones of the New Testament Temple were to experience in the days leading up to his return, because that was one of the two questions they had asked Him.

Most of what Jesus said to them after He sat down on the Mount of Olives had nothing to do with the temple in Jerusalem. He had spoken about its coming destruction before even arriving on the Mount of Olives, though in Luke 21:20-24 He did give them the sign by which they would know that the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem was about to take place, because that was one of the two questions they had asked Him.

Scripture interprets scripture, even though you may ignore it.

Jesus on the Mount of Olives telling His disciples about the tribulation and persecution the living stones of the New Testament Temple were to experience (the very first thing He talks about after sitting down on the Mount of Olives): ​

Clearly Jesus was not obsessed with the temple in Jerusalem during his Olivet Discourse. He gave His disciples a sign that they would be able to recognize when its destruction was imminent, because they asked Him for it, but that's all He said about it. The rest of the Olivet Discourse is about the above.​

 

[Timtofly]

You are your final authority, not God.

Not talking about me. You brought up Josephus as the final authority over God's Word.

That was not "the great tribulation", but there has never been "a great tribulation" to equal the destruction of Jerusalem before or since.

This is corroborated in the historical record by Josephus et al.

You claim Josephus is the final authority on the fulfillment of Jacob's trouble, when Michael stands up in Daniel 12.

 

[Zao is life]

Well, sure, but I'm asking you what you think, Fullness of the Gentiles. Do you always carry on "conversations" like this?


Everyone here thinks that about everything they say. :) I'm not saying you didn't, but still, I'm trying to have a conversation with you. My goodness...


Nope. Stop there. If you can't answer a very un-complicated question... and maybe have a brief conversation about it... then, stop there.


Ah, so this I will be happy to speak to, because I brought it up. :) There is nothing in God's word that says ~ or intimates ~ that Adam was deceived as Eve was, and Paul says explicitly that it was Eve and not Adam who was deceived:

"For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor..."​

[1 Timothy 2:13-14]​

Wait, maybe you think that's not true, because Paul said (wrote) it, and not Jesus... :) I'm... kidding. :)

But to answer your question here, as I said in my previous post, Adam's guilt was far greater than Eve's, because, well...


Right. Exactly. Is there an echo in here... here... here... here? :) It should have been obvious in my previous post that I agree with this, and therefore no need to... expound. :) I did refer specifically to what God said to Adam in Genesis 2:17, which... you do again here.

To add a little something here, it was Adam's responsibility to his wife to tell her what God said (because she had not yet been created when God told Adam that), and he obviously did, because she repeated to Satan (in Genesis 3:3) what God said ~ although it's very interesting that she added the thing about touching it; God could have instructed Adam not to touch the fruit, but according to the text, He only told Adam not to eat it; Eve's adding that is very, very interesting... :)

Thanks for the "conversation." :)

Grace and peace to you.

It's a pleasure. If I choose not to directly give you the answer to your question about what I believe when there are scriptures that provide the answer, and I give you the scriptures because I believe it's sometimes better just to point people to scripture and to point out what God said and what Jesus said, and what scriptures says about Jesus viz immortality etc, and you won't comment on the scriptures but "require" a direct answer, well then so be it. I never realized that I would be attacked with mild sarcasm for pointing you to scripture instead of giving you my own answer.

 

[David in NJ]

It's a pleasure. If I choose not to directly give you the answer to your question about what I believe when there are scriptures that provide the answer, and I give you the scriptures because I believe it's sometimes better just to point people to scripture and to point out what God said and what Jesus said, and what scriptures says about Jesus viz immortality etc, and you won't comment on the scriptures but "require" a direct answer, well then so be it. I never realized that I would be attacked with mild sarcasm for pointing you to scripture instead of giving you my own answer.

Correct = If the Scripture that correctly answers their question is rejected by them = then there is no other answer!

 

[Zao is life]

Correct = If the Scripture that correctly answers their question is rejected by them = then there is no other answer!

Exactly. God's Word above all things!

The deception Adam believed was the other part of the lie, and he was deceived through his own motive. He knew perfectly well that God said ".. dying you will die" (the direct translation of the Hebrew) because God had said it directly to Adam, so he knew perfectly well that "you shall not surely die" was a lie, but because through his own motive he believed the second part of the lie, he wound up believing the above part of the lie also.

It's because Adam, the creature who had been created in the image and likeness of God His Creator, did not settle for that status when he believed he could obtain equality with God his Creator (i.e make himself like the Most High through eating the forbidden fruit), when he heard the words "you will be like God ...".

That was his motive, and his motive caused him to be deceived - first by the above part of the lie, and then, as a result, by the lie that says, "You will not surely die".

That was Eve's motive too: ""good" for 'food', 'pleasing' to the eye, 'desirable' to "make one wise".

So Adam and Eve were 100% equally guilty.

Adam did not abide in the Word, so he died. Jesus says we are to abide in the Vine (Jesus/the Word) and His Word will abide in us, otherwise we will be cast off and will wither and be worth nothing more than to be burned.

@David in NJ God had also breathed (Spirit) His life into Adam and so Adam was living forever before he believed the lie and stopped abiding in the Vine.

He was a living soul. Not a dead one. That's why the Spirit who breathes where He desires breathed on us and gave us birth by the Spirit.

God's Word above all things!!

 

[covenantee]

Not talking about me. You brought up Josephus as the final authority over God's Word.

You brought up yourself as the final authority over God's Word.

Whom to believe?

1. You
2. Josephus

No hint necessary.