The 144,000 before God at the end.

[covenantee]

In one of my previous posts I posted the first thing - the very first thing - Jesus spoke about after sitting down on the Mount of Olives in all three synoptic gospels - and I placed it side by side for you - which is the tribulation and the persecution that the living stones of the New Testament Temple were to experience in the days leading up to his return, because that was one of the two questions they had asked Him.

Most of what Jesus said to them after He sat down on the Mount of Olives had nothing to do with the temple in Jerusalem. He had spoken about its coming destruction before even arriving on the Mount of Olives, though in Luke 21:20-24 He did give them the sign by which they would know that the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem was about to take place, because that was one of the two questions they had asked Him.

Scripture interprets scripture, even though you may ignore it.

Jesus on the Mount of Olives telling His disciples about the tribulation and persecution the living stones of the New Testament Temple were to experience (the very first thing He talks about after sitting down on the Mount of Olives): ​

View attachment 36985
View attachment 36986
View attachment 36987

Clearly Jesus was not obsessed with the temple in Jerusalem during his Olivet Discourse. He gave His disciples a sign that they would be able to recognize when its destruction was imminent, because they asked Him for it, but that's all He said about it. The rest of the Olivet Discourse is about the above.​

Historical fulfillments of Jesus' prophecies.

DECEIVERS

Matthew: “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many” (24:4,5).
Mark: “And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many” (13:5,6).
Luke: “And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them” (21:8).

We notice that all three accounts warn about deceivers. But Luke’s account explains WHEN these things would happen. Jesus Said: “And the time DRAWETH NEAR: go ye not therefore after them.” Jesus was not talking about something that would take place hundreds or thousands of years later. Jesus was warning his disciples about something that was drawing near in their time. This is plain.

Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour’s death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY — a statement which indicates that there were many of such in those days.

An Egyptian who “pretended to be a prophet” gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show “how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down.”

Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet.

These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were a great number, and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be “many.”

Great Prophecies of the Bible
Ralph Woodrow

 

[covenantee]

In one of my previous posts I posted the first thing - the very first thing - Jesus spoke about after sitting down on the Mount of Olives in all three synoptic gospels - and I placed it side by side for you - which is the tribulation and the persecution that the living stones of the New Testament Temple were to experience in the days leading up to his return, because that was one of the two questions they had asked Him.

Most of what Jesus said to them after He sat down on the Mount of Olives had nothing to do with the temple in Jerusalem. He had spoken about its coming destruction before even arriving on the Mount of Olives, though in Luke 21:20-24 He did give them the sign by which they would know that the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem was about to take place, because that was one of the two questions they had asked Him.

Scripture interprets scripture, even though you may ignore it.

Jesus on the Mount of Olives telling His disciples about the tribulation and persecution the living stones of the New Testament Temple were to experience (the very first thing He talks about after sitting down on the Mount of Olives): ​

View attachment 36985
View attachment 36986
View attachment 36987

Clearly Jesus was not obsessed with the temple in Jerusalem during his Olivet Discourse. He gave His disciples a sign that they would be able to recognize when its destruction was imminent, because they asked Him for it, but that's all He said about it. The rest of the Olivet Discourse is about the above.​

More historical fulfillments of Jesus' prophecies.

WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

Matthew: “And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom” (24:6, 7).
Mark: “And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled; for such things must needs be, but the end is not yet, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom” (13:7, 8).
Luke: “But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified; for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by [immediately]. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom” (21:9, 10).

We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. But Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes, within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero “drove a dagger into his throat.” Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and “thrusting his thumb into the mouth”, carried the horrid trophy about. Otho “stabbed himself” in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then “dragged by a hook into the Tiber.” We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these “Disturbances in Germany”, “commotions in Africa”, “commotions in Thrace”, “insurrections in Gaul”, “intrigues among the Parthians”, “the war in Britain”, “war in Armenia.”

Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor’s armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: “See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet.” The word “end” that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression “end of the world.” (See footnote on page 59). As Barnes says, the end here referred to is “the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem.”

Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

Great Prophecies of the Bible
Ralph Woodrow

 

[covenantee]

In one of my previous posts I posted the first thing - the very first thing - Jesus spoke about after sitting down on the Mount of Olives in all three synoptic gospels - and I placed it side by side for you - which is the tribulation and the persecution that the living stones of the New Testament Temple were to experience in the days leading up to his return, because that was one of the two questions they had asked Him.

Most of what Jesus said to them after He sat down on the Mount of Olives had nothing to do with the temple in Jerusalem. He had spoken about its coming destruction before even arriving on the Mount of Olives, though in Luke 21:20-24 He did give them the sign by which they would know that the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem was about to take place, because that was one of the two questions they had asked Him.

Scripture interprets scripture, even though you may ignore it.

Jesus on the Mount of Olives telling His disciples about the tribulation and persecution the living stones of the New Testament Temple were to experience (the very first thing He talks about after sitting down on the Mount of Olives): ​

View attachment 36985
View attachment 36986
View attachment 36987

Clearly Jesus was not obsessed with the temple in Jerusalem during his Olivet Discourse. He gave His disciples a sign that they would be able to recognize when its destruction was imminent, because they asked Him for it, but that's all He said about it. The rest of the Olivet Discourse is about the above.​

More historical fulfillments of Jesus' prophecies.

FAMINES, PESTILENCES, EARTHQUAKES

Matthew: “And there shall be famines and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows” (24:7, 8).
Mark: “And there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles. These are the beginning of sorrows” (13:8).
Luke: “And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines and pestilences, and fearful sights” (21:11).

The Bible records that there was famine “throughout all the world. . . in the days of Claudius Caesar” (Acts 11:28). Judea was especially hard hit by famine. “The disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethern which dwelt in Judaea” (verse 29). Paul’s instructions concerning this “collection [of fruit] for the saints” is recorded in First Corinthians 16:1-5; Rom. 15:25-28.

Historians such as Suetonius and others mention famine during those years. Tacitus speaks of a “Failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon.” Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Home, Judea, and Greece. Yes, there were famines in those years before the fall of Jerusalem.

Along with famines, Jesus mentioned pestilences; that is plagues, the spread of disease, epidemics. Famine and pestilence, of course, go hand in hand. When people do not have proper food or insufficient food, pestilence results. Suetonius wrote of “pestilence” at Home in the days of Nero which was so severe that “within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons.” Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A.D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 66. Yes, there were pestilences in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem.

During this period, Jesus said there would also be earthquakes in many places. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote that “frequent earthquakes occured, by which many houses were thrown down” and that “twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake.”

Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said: “How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! how many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! how many in Macedonia! how often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity! how often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once.” He mentions the earthquake at Campania during the reign of Nero. In 60 A. D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown — Laodocia being so self-sufficient that it recovered without the Imperial aid furnished other cities. In 63 A. D., the city of Pompeii was greatly damaged by earthquake. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in divers places.

Great Prophecies of the Bible
Ralph Woodrow

 

[covenantee]

In one of my previous posts I posted the first thing - the very first thing - Jesus spoke about after sitting down on the Mount of Olives in all three synoptic gospels - and I placed it side by side for you - which is the tribulation and the persecution that the living stones of the New Testament Temple were to experience in the days leading up to his return, because that was one of the two questions they had asked Him.

Most of what Jesus said to them after He sat down on the Mount of Olives had nothing to do with the temple in Jerusalem. He had spoken about its coming destruction before even arriving on the Mount of Olives, though in Luke 21:20-24 He did give them the sign by which they would know that the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem was about to take place, because that was one of the two questions they had asked Him.

Scripture interprets scripture, even though you may ignore it.

Jesus on the Mount of Olives telling His disciples about the tribulation and persecution the living stones of the New Testament Temple were to experience (the very first thing He talks about after sitting down on the Mount of Olives): ​

View attachment 36985
View attachment 36986
View attachment 36987

Clearly Jesus was not obsessed with the temple in Jerusalem during his Olivet Discourse. He gave His disciples a sign that they would be able to recognize when its destruction was imminent, because they asked Him for it, but that's all He said about it. The rest of the Olivet Discourse is about the above.​

More historical fulfillments of Jesus' prophecies.

PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

Matthew: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.., And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (24:9-12).

Mark: "They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony.., whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost... And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (13:9-13).

Luke: "They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony...I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (21:12-17).

The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). They were brought before "rulers" (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council "marveled" (verse 13). They were then commanded "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for his name's sake.

The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities "laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (verse 18). Later they were brought "before the council" (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41).

Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the "synagogue" that disputed with Steven. "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke" (verses 9,10). Persecution resulted and he was brought into the "council " and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

Notice Acts 8. "There was a great persecution against the church." Christians were put in "prison", but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into "prison." But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were "imprisoned and beat in every Synagogue."

In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay—though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul's words even made Felix to "tremble." In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (verse 28).

Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name's sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years—unmistakably fulfilled in every detail.

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many ...but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:11,13). Peter, who was present when Jesus gave this prophecy (Mk. 13:3), later wrote about "false prophets" that had risen and of "many" that followed their pernicious ways (2 Peter 2). John, who also heard Jesus give this prophecy, recorded the fulfillment: "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (l John 4:1). "Many deceivers are entered into the world" (2 John 7).

Paul also spoke of "false apostles, deceitful workers" (2 Cor. 11:13). He mentioned Hymenaeus and Philetus who taught false doctrines and overthrew the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17, 18). By the time of his epistle to Titus, there were "many...deceivers ...who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not" (Titus 1:10, 11).

The waters of truth were muddied by betrayals, false prophets, iniquity, and the love of many waxing cold.

Source: "Great Prophecies of the Bible" by Ralph Woodrow

 

[covenantee]

In one of my previous posts I posted the first thing - the very first thing - Jesus spoke about after sitting down on the Mount of Olives in all three synoptic gospels - and I placed it side by side for you - which is the tribulation and the persecution that the living stones of the New Testament Temple were to experience in the days leading up to his return, because that was one of the two questions they had asked Him.

Most of what Jesus said to them after He sat down on the Mount of Olives had nothing to do with the temple in Jerusalem. He had spoken about its coming destruction before even arriving on the Mount of Olives, though in Luke 21:20-24 He did give them the sign by which they would know that the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem was about to take place, because that was one of the two questions they had asked Him.

Scripture interprets scripture, even though you may ignore it.

Jesus on the Mount of Olives telling His disciples about the tribulation and persecution the living stones of the New Testament Temple were to experience (the very first thing He talks about after sitting down on the Mount of Olives): ​

View attachment 36985
View attachment 36986
View attachment 36987

Clearly Jesus was not obsessed with the temple in Jerusalem during his Olivet Discourse. He gave His disciples a sign that they would be able to recognize when its destruction was imminent, because they asked Him for it, but that's all He said about it. The rest of the Olivet Discourse is about the above.​

More historical fulfillments of Jesus' prophecies.

GOSPEL TO BE PREACHED TO THE NATIONS

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then [not until then] shall the end come" (Mt. 24:14). Unless we take this verse clear out of its setting, "the end" in view here is the end or destruction which was to come upon Jerusalem and the temple. This was the question that Jesus was answering in the verses before, and the verses that follow are still speaking about Jerusalem and Judea. Jerusalem would be destroyed, but "first" the gospel would be preached unto all nations (Mk. 13:10).

It was a tremendous prophecy. Picture the scene. Here on the mount of Olives, Jesus was speaking these words to seemingly insignificant men. Who would have supposed that the names of these humble men would become known around the world and that even in our day—almost 2,000 years later—the seeds of truth that they planted would still be producing fruit? Who would have supposed that this unpopular gospel that Christ committed to these men would ever spread beyond that immediate area? Such a vast preaching program unto all nations seemed almost impossible of fulfillment. But it was fulfilled, and in a very real sense the gospel did go to all nations before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D..

On the day of Pentecost when the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit, there were present in Jerusalem "devout men, out of every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5). They heard the gospel preached by Peter and 3,000 were converted that day. Many of these, no doubt, returned to their various countries and preached the gospel.

Later when persecution came against the church, the believers at Jerusalem were scattered and "went every where preaching the word", throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria (Acts 8:1,4). Philip took the message to the city of Samaria with great results (verses 5-8). Later he was directed to a high ranking government official from Ethiopia who was gloriously converted (verses 26-40). It is believed that this man took the message to the continent of Africa and many were converted because of his influential testimony.

Peter took the message to the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius, an event that was a turning point in the missionary activities of the church (Acts 10, 11). The book of Acts gives a sketch of the mighty missionary work that advanced rapidly.

The message spread to Rome. By the time of Nero, the Christians had grown so numerous that they aroused the jealousy of the government. The story of the great fire in Rome in 64 A. D. —for which the Christians were falsely blamed—is well known. In writing to the Christians at Rome, Paul opens his epistle by saying, "Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Rom. 1:8), and his closing words talk about the gospel as having been "made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (16:26).

Concerning even far away England, Newton says: "There is absolute certainty that Christianity was planted in this country in the days of the apostles, before the destruction of Jerusalem." Eusebius and also Theodoret inform us that the apostles preached the gospel in all the world and some of them "passed beyond the ocean to the Britannic isles."

By the time Paul wrote his letter to the Colossians, he could say: 'The gospel...is come unto you, as it is in all the world" (Col. 1:6). Likewise, in verse 23, he mentions '"the gospel which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven."

By 70 A. D., the gospel had gone forth to the world for a witness. No longer was God's message to man confined to one nation or race.


Source: "Great Prophecies of the Bible" by Ralph Woodrow

 

[covenantee]

You claim Josephus is the final authority on the fulfillment of Jacob's trouble, when Michael stands up in Daniel 12.

You claim you are the final authority on the fulfillment of Jacob's trouble, when Michael stands up in Daniel 12.

 

[ewq1938]

You've just resorted to pretending that you don't understand what a biblical type and its antitype is.​

That has nothing to do with the chp starting with the birth and ascension of Jesus. Nothing there is related to anything before those events.

 

[The Light]

Changing Revelation to fit Matthew is the wrong interpretation. We are not warned to change how Matthew was written, but we are warned not to change Revelation.

Please explain how you think I have changed Revelation

There are dozens of changes in human interpretation with how Revelation should be viewed, and no one can agree because there is a curse associated with changing around Revelation to fit human understanding.

What have I changed?

People should change their view of Matthew 24 and leave Revelation just the way it is.

What in Revelation is changed

 

[Timtofly]

The Greek takes precedence over any translation, King James or otherwise.

It makes all the difference, because Jesus did not tell His disciples to go for coffee while He began a futurized monologue irrelevant to them. What He said was directly related to what the Judaean Christians would experience within a generation.

They remembered Jesus' warning, heeded it, fled, and survived.

Thankfully, they were not dispensational futurites.

Nothing to do with "the time of the end".

The word "the" is used in Greek twice because it is a prepositional phrase and the Greeks used "the" redundantly. It does not mean that the "the" is meaning a certain tribulation.

Coming (verb) out of (preposition) the tribulation (noun) the great (adjective).

Revelation 7:14

"These are they which came out of great tribulation."

In English you don't necessarily need the word "the".

There is no defined tribulation mentioned at all in either chapter 6 or 7. We know the church had tribulation since the day of Pentecost. Peter was placed in prison. Stephen and James were martyred. Eventually all were martyred. Tribulation has been non stop, and will not stop until the church is taken away. Once taken away, the church's tribulation stops, and does not continue in heaven, nor on earth.

After the tribulation of those days, on the church, which came out of great tribulation, 1993+ years worth, the rapture and Second Coming happens, and that tribulation stops. There are no more days of tribulation on the church after the rapture and Second Coming which happen simultaneously.

Jacob is not part of the church nor the church's tribulation. The church is not part of Jacob nor Jacob's trouble. How is that so confusing for all you posters?

The great tribulation is for Jacob only, not the church. It did not happen in the first century. What happened to Jerusalem was the result of this claim:

"When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children."

Jesus' people passed the guilt of crucifying an innocent person onto themselves and their children.

The Great Tribulation is not the result of first century Jews.

Nor is it for the church. It is the final harvest and end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Jacob will still be on earth after the church is taken away. Then it will be Jacob's trouble.

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew, Luke, and Mark are synoptic.

All refer to the destruction of Jerusalem.

More human theology that comes from human understanding. Where is the word "synoptic" found in God's Word?

 

[The Light]

It says power and great glory.
You have that coming prewrath.

EXACTLY.

When in fact that is postwrath.

No sir, it's prewrath. Its clearly marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. It's post trib and prewrath.

We see the prewrath in rev 14.

Yes you do. And that harvest takes place at the 6th seal. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, is the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14. It's post trib..........immediately after the tribulation.............and pre wrath, before the trumpets and vials which happen in the same timeframe.

It is NOT power and great glory at all.

Jesus comes in the clouds with His angels and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Jesus remains in the clouds. Just because you see no power and glory in Revelation 14, you should note that He comes after the Great Tribulation, just like He does in Matthew 24 and just like He does in Revelation 6.

 

[The Light]

Rev 14 describes the setting and method of his coming.
It is not in power and great glory.
Show me power and great glory coming mid trib

Not transposed.
Just where it says that in rev 14

IT IS NOT MID TRIB. IT is immediately after the tribulation............post trib and pre wrath.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Those signs in the sun, moon and stars should tell you that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Why are you not seeing that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal? It has a TIME STAMP OF THE SUN, MOON AND STARS. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Jesus comes for a harvest.

 

[The Light]

You have Christ returning when the sixth SEAL is opened, but John writes after the seventh SEAL is opened there are still seven angels to come with seven trumpets to sound, and John writes "time shall be no longer" when the seventh angel begins to sound. It is when time shall be no longer that Christ returns.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest. All go to heaven..........and are seen in heaven when the marriage supper takes place. After the marriage supper the armies of heaven return to the earth and Armageddon occurs. At the 7th trumpet, Jesus sets up His kingdom on earth.

 

[The Light]

the innumerable number before the throne is part of main harvest.
Harvest has 4 parts
FF
Main
Corners
Gleaners

Correct.

That is one harvest .

Correct.

The 144k is the other rapture.
They are the fruit harvest.
That is the Jewish harvest
The 144k are FF JEWISH harvest.
The fact they are FF ethnic Jews means main JEWISH harvest is next

The 144,000 are first fruits that are raptured to heaven.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Here is the harvest.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Here is the result of that harvest.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The harvest occurs at the 6th seal. Here is another view of that harvest.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The 7 yr gt is JACOBS TROUBLE
ISRAELS TROUBLE.

The Great Tribulation does not last 7 years. The 70th week of Daniel lasts 7 years.

The great tribulation does not begin until the abomination is set up which occurs in the midst of the week.

Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.


Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The entire 7 yr period has zero to do with the church.

Agreed, other than the Church will be on earth during the first year of the 7 year period.

The church is taken in exact detail of the 10 virgin parable

Agreed.

And like EVERY rapture verse, it is peacetime, commerce and normal life.
Every rapture verse is the same setting.

Agreed.

In no rapture verse is there "power and great glory"
Not even in the gathering in rev 14.
Sickle sitting on a cloud.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Not correct. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 shows Jesus comes in power and glory. This is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal as it is MARKED by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. This also the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14. We can prove that by the great tribulation in Revelation 14, which is the fifth seal.

 

[Timtofly]

The last time we read about humanity being universally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

That was not universal judgment on all of humanity, nor even the earth. It only was on those who came against the camp of the saints. Nothing happened to the camp of the saints; no tribulation, no wrath, and no judgment. Nothing happened to the earth, nor to those obedient to God. We cannot even know what percentage of humanity rebelled.

No one even understands the Millennium, much less how the world is when Satan is loosed. For one thing, it will be the Adam and Eve scenario all over again. They will be deceived like Eve was with a better offer from Satan than obedience to God, and the existence that God was providing. They will not be satisfied with life, but think they need something more than they already had.

 

[covenantee]

More human theology that comes from human understanding. Where is the word "synoptic" found in God's Word?

More dispensational delusional denial of history's confirmation of Jesus' prophecies. Where is the word "theology" found in God's Word?

 

[Zao is life]

Whom to believe?

1. You
2. Josephus

No hint necessary.

He has the right to quote historical sources regarding history. Just we have to be careful when people "quote" Josephus if they don't give book, Chapter and Section they're getting the history from. If the Bible can be misinterpreted, then so can any historian's works.

 

[Zao is life]

Historical fulfillments of Jesus' prophecies.

DECEIVERS

Matthew: “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many” (24:4,5).
Mark: “And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many” (13:5,6).
Luke: “And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them” (21:8).

We notice that all three accounts warn about deceivers. But Luke’s account explains WHEN these things would happen. Jesus Said: “And the time DRAWETH NEAR: go ye not therefore after them.” Jesus was not talking about something that would take place hundreds or thousands of years later. Jesus was warning his disciples about something that was drawing near in their time. This is plain.

Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour’s death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY — a statement which indicates that there were many of such in those days.

An Egyptian who “pretended to be a prophet” gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show “how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down.”

Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet.

These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were a great number, and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be “many.”

Great Prophecies of the Bible
Ralph Woodrow

We all get it. You're obsessed with what was and do not believe Jesus spoke about what will be - the signs of His coming and of the end of the Age, even though the sign of His coming and the end of the Age was one of the questions His disciples had asked Him.

Babylon had already been judged thousands of years ago, and hundreds of years before the time of Christ, but the very same language used by the prophets in reference to Babylon's destruction is also talking about the destruction of Babylon the Great in the Revelation.

So by your rule, Babylon the Great in the Revelation is talking about the destruction of ancient Babylon, because the same language is used for both.

So you ignore the fact that the signs of His coming and the end of the Age is one of the questions the disciples asked Jesus and have convinced yourself that the entire Olivet Discourse is about 70 A.D.

According to your rule, In His Revelation Jesus was talking about a historical event that had taken place hundreds of years before His time when He gave John this:​

 

[Zao is life]

Jesus is referred to, and Christians are mentioned in the last verse. Rev 12 starts with Christ's birth, goes through his death and ascension. Everything after is after those events.





You are wrong because you don't understand the timeframe and context of Rev 12. There is also nothing about 70Ad at all in that chapter. Not a word about the temple being destroyed, or Jerusalem, or even a successful attack on Jews! The woman is safe through the whole chapter. Only Christians are targets in the last verse and they are the only ones satan is successful against as seen in chp 13.

You are wrong because you don't understand the biblical types.

In the first place the chapter and verse divisions in the Revelation - in the Bible - were only added in 1227 A.D. Revelation chapters 12-13 start with the beginning of the Age - the birth of Christ and the ascension of Christ - and close at the end of the Age with the mark of the beast being the culmination of Satan's war against the rest of the woman's seed.

The Bible symbolically/metaphorically refers to trouble and persecution coming upon God's elect people as a flood:

19 So they shall fear the name of the LORD from the west, and His glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall make him flee.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and to those who turn from transgression in Jacob, says the LORD. -- Isa.59.

1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower which is on the head of the fat valleys of those who are overcome with wine!
2 Behold, the Lord is a mighty and strong one, like a hailstorm, a destroying storm; like a flood of mighty waters overflowing, He casts down to the earth with the hand.
3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trampled under foot -- Isa.28.

The Bible is never inconsistent with it's own established symbolism. Persecution of the woman = a flood. You are making the Bible inconsistent with its own symbolism.

The woman is true Israel. The Jewish saints. The flood is the persecution sent out against her by the leaders of unbelieving Israel, but she is kept safe and fed (with the Word of God) in the wilderness. The earth swallowing up the flood is the destruction of the kingdom and seat of power of the Jewish leaders who were persecuting her. The Biblical type is the earth swallowing up those who began persecuting Moses in the wilderness.​

 

[rebuilder 454]

According to the flesh they were his brethren. Not according to their place in Israel:

Not however that the word of God has failed, for NOT ALL those of Israel are Israel; nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they ALL children. -- Rom.9:6

They are only children of Abraham if they are in Christ. So Paul says in Rom.1:3 that IF HE COULD he would take their place and be accursed from Christ.

They were the brethren of Jesus according to the flesh also. Not sure if that still applies since Jesus is risen from the dead. That does not mean that all of them are still Israel:

They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus answered them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. -- John 8:39.

Jesus was telling them that they are not Abraham's children just because they are his genetic descendants.

"There is neither male nor female..."
Cue sarcasm
Therefore only eunuchs and confused women populate the church because there are no more men and women, but gender neutral humanoids.
There... we now have the complete one dimensional error of taking replacement theology pillars to there logical conclusion.
Hint:
We still see ethnic Jews in the church as well as men and women.
Lets get real please.