The 70 Weeks Prophecy - The Ezra 6:14 Challenge

[EclipseEventSigns]

You seem to have a language issue here. The more natural meaning would exclude the way you are counting decrees here.

The more natural understanding would be that God is decreeing something *through* these earthly kings. He is using these kings as the vehicle for His own heavenly decree.

His decree is not separate, nor to be counted separately, from the decrees of these earthly kings. They are all one singular decree from God, allowing *all* of these kings' decrees to contributed to the one heavenly decree, to the one heavenly purpose, which was to rebuild both the temple and the city of Jerusalem.

You are not reading the communication properly. The result is rendering the prophecy beyond understanding, which is not what the angel means when he says details are closed off until the endtimes.

The purpose is to give enough truth to guide the People of God until the actual details come to pass. We are not to focus so much on the exact details, but on the main idea, which is to remain true to God's word until it is completely fulfilled. It is not always our purpose to actually strive to live in a time so prophesied, but rather, to prepare God's People in advance of that prophecy coming to pass.

In the same way, we preach a Kingdom that is yet to come. Our purpose is not to strive to be the Last Generation who will see this come to pass. Rather, our purpose is to preach it so that God's People can prepare now for that event.

Yes, there is a language issue. Either the command by God listed in Ezra 6:14 is a literal utterance by God or as is your view, it is figurative. Where in the text does Ezra say it wasn't a literal command?

In actual fact, there IS a literal command by God that was done. That is the entire point of the Ezra 6:14 Challenge. How does your view either address this fact or not?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, there is a language issue. Either the command by God listed in Ezra 6:14 is a literal utterance by God or as is your view, it is figurative. Where in the text does Ezra say it wasn't a literal command?

In actual fact, there IS a literal command by God that was done. That is the entire point of the Ezra 6:14 Challenge. How does your view either address this fact or not?

It is even more a "language issue" than you apparently realize? To be clear, I did *not* say that my view was to take "God's decree" in a "figurative way!" I am not saying God's decree was figurative, but literally something God determined within Himself and expressed to all He was speaking to.

What on earth is a "figurative decree" anyway? I think what you're saying is simply that because God decrees something in heaven and these kings had their own decrees on earth that God's decree is not documented on actual parchment and must therefore be counted separately from the decree He is making to elicit a response from these kings? I would argue that God is decreeing that these kings make decrees on earth and that they are the decrees we should focus on when considering the 70 Weeks Prophecy.

So I'm saying that God decreed things from heaven and literally intended this to elicit decrees from Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes. In other words, God's heavenly decree, which was not figurative, but quite literal, was explicitly designed to produce decrees on earth through these literal kings.

What a decree is *literally* in heaven is not what a decree is on earth, obviously. But decrees do not have to be put on paper--they can be spoken. In this case, when God speaks from heaven He is literally making a verbal decree in heaven, and not putting it on a physical document unless He determines to have it recorded in Scriptures, or reiterated by His Prophets. And in this case, His design was to elicit a response from these kings to His heavenly decree, whether or not they were aware of it.

A verbal, heavenly decree is not, by definition, "figurative." It is quite literal. But carried out by God it is quite different than a king on earth having his decrees officially documented. The explicit purpose here is not to separate God's decree from the decrees of these earthly kings, although we certainly my distinguish between them. Rather, God is explicitly decreeing something in heaven that will have results on earth through these earthly kings and their documented decrees.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

It is even more a "language issue" than you apparently realize? To be clear, I did *not* say that my view was to take "God's decree" in a "figurative way!" I am not saying God's decree was figurative, but literally something God determined within Himself and expressed to all He was speaking to.

What on earth is a "figurative decree" anyway? I think what you're saying is simply that because God decrees something in heaven and these kings had their own decrees on earth that God's decree is not documented on actual parchment and must therefore be counted separately from the decree He is making to elicit a response from these kings? I would argue that God is decreeing that these kings make decrees on earth and that they are the decrees we should focus on when considering the 70 Weeks Prophecy.

So I'm saying that God decreed things from heaven and literally intended this to elicit decrees from Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes. In other words, God's heavenly decree, which was not figurative, but quite literal, was explicitly designed to produce decrees on earth through these literal kings.

What a decree is *literally* in heaven is not what a decree is on earth, obviously. But decrees do not have to be put on paper--they can be spoken. In this case, when God speaks from heaven He is literally making a verbal decree in heaven, and not putting it on a physical document unless He determines to have it recorded in Scriptures, or reiterated by His Prophets. And in this case, His design was to elicit a response from these kings to His heavenly decree, whether or not they were aware of it.

A verbal, heavenly decree is not, by definition, "figurative." It is quite literal. But carried out by God it is quite different than a king on earth having his decrees officially documented. The explicit purpose here is not to separate God's decree from the decrees of these earthly kings, although we certainly my distinguish between them. Rather, God is explicitly decreeing something in heaven that will have results on earth through these earthly kings and their documented decrees.

Again, you make out the command of God listed in Ezra 6:14 as some non-literal command. God did make a specific command. It was put on paper (actually in a scroll). He commanded the return and restoration of Jerusalem - the "sub" and "bana" of Jerusalem.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Again, you make out the command of God listed in Ezra 6:14 as some non-literal command. God did make a specific command. It was put on paper (actually in a scroll). He commanded the return and restoration of Jerusalem - the "sub" and "bana" of Jerusalem.

You just don't seem to understand what "literal" means. Wrong! I *literally* mean that God made a command in heaven and did so in a verbal communication. The fact it was picked up by angels and men, who spoke them or wrote them down in no way renders God's verbal decree as "figurative!"

You may call the command of God as "spiritual," or "heavenly," but nobody here is calling it "figurative" but you! Please don't misrepresent what I'm saying? I'm *not* calling God's decree "figurative." Rather, I'm saying that God's literal command in heaven was designed to elicit human decrees that would result in the rebuilding of both the Temple and Jerusalem.

The starting point of the 70 Weeks Prophecy was not, I think, God's heavenly decree. This would be a most unusual starting point since who can determine, time-wise, when precisely that would be? It would more naturally be one of the decrees of these 3 kings, all of whom contributed to the fulfillment of God's heavenly decree.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

You just don't seem to understand what "literal" means. Wrong! I *literally* mean that God made a command in heaven and did so in a verbal communication. The fact it was picked up by angels and men, who spoke them or wrote them down in no way renders God's verbal decree as "figurative!"

You don't seem to understand "literal". As in actual. Not something done to force or suggest another decree. An actual and specific command by God, written down. Has NOTHING to do with any of the other 3 decrees. But they were all made so that the temple was able to be completed. There are 4 distinct and separate decrees.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You don't seem to understand "literal". As in actual. Not something done to force or suggest another decree. An actual and specific command by God, written down. Has NOTHING to do with any of the other 3 decrees. But they were all made so that the temple was able to be completed. There are 4 distinct and separate decrees.

Re-read what I said in my last post. I wasn't quite finished with it. Thank you!

 

[marks]

"The decree of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes" indicates a singular "decree" to which all the mentioned kings contributed. They appear to be mentioned as singular because of their singular purpose, to restore both the temple and the city of Jerusalem.

Mentioning 3 kings does not imply 3 decrees. It only suggests that these 3 kings directly contributed to this singular purpose by issuing their own decrees. So there were *at least* 3 decrees. I'm not sure where you get there being a "4th decree" preexisting the decree of Cyrus?

Artaxerxes issued 2 decrees in this respect, one in his 7th year and one in his 20th year. I choose the decree in the 7th year because contributing to the full functioning of the temple began the process of constructing a city fully engaged in their restored covenant with God. And that's what Artaxerxes did. He finished restoring the temple worship itself along with appointing city magistrates. This was followed by his decree to rebuild the city walls, etc.

Wow! Some of that rare "critical reasoning"! Good stuff!!!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Again, you make out the command of God listed in Ezra 6:14 as some non-literal command. God did make a specific command. It was put on paper (actually in a scroll). He commanded the return and restoration of Jerusalem - the "sub" and "bana" of Jerusalem.

For myself, I'm just waiting for you to get to your point. Aside from the one that everyone else is wrong.

Isaiah 45:1-13 KJV
1) Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
2) I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3) And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
4) For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
5) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
8) Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
9) Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
10) Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
11) Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
12) I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13) I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

Much love!

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

You just don't seem to understand what "literal" means. Wrong! I *literally* mean that God made a command in heaven and did so in a verbal communication. The fact it was picked up by angels and men, who spoke them or wrote them down in no way renders God's verbal decree as "figurative!"

You may call the command of God as "spiritual," or "heavenly," but nobody here is calling it "figurative" but you! Please don't misrepresent what I'm saying? I'm *not* calling God's decree "figurative." Rather, I'm saying that God's literal command in heaven was designed to elicit human decrees that would result in the rebuilding of both the Temple and Jerusalem.

You are getting bogged down on non-essential details. What you describe, whether it be termed "figurative", "heavenly" or "spiritual" - it all implies that there were not 4 actual, distinct utterances that Ezra 6:14 specifically states were done.

The starting point of the 70 Weeks Prophecy was not, I think, God's heavenly decree. This would be a most unusual starting point since who can determine, time-wise, when precisely that would be? It would more naturally be one of the decrees of these 3 kings, all of whom contributed to the fulfillment of God's heavenly decree.

"I think". "most unusual" "more naturally". That's the entire point in this. Do you know? Has anyone ever known? My claim is, no, unless you take the first command listed by Ezra as a literal historically accurate and dateable utterance, you won't correctly understand the 70 Weeks Prophecy.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

For myself, I'm just waiting for you to get to your point. Aside from the one that everyone else is wrong.

Isaiah 45:1-13 KJV
1) Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
2) I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3) And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
4) For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
5) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
8) Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
9) Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
10) Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
11) Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
12) I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13) I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

Much love!

You can go to the links in my profile if you want to know. It's always been there for anyone to check out. As to everyone else being wrong, if an interpretation is not consistent with the entirety of Scripture, then what would you call that? It would be incorrect. It would be wrong. The Ezra 6:14 Challenge provides for that standard.

 

[marks]

You can go to the links in my profile if you want to know. It's always been there for anyone to check out. As to everyone else being wrong, if an interpretation is not consistent with the entirety of Scripture, then what would you call that? It would be incorrect. It would be wrong. The Ezra 6:14 Challenge provides for that standard.

I didn't see it. Sorry!

Edit to add . . . I looked again, do you mean links to your youtube channel? I'm not planning to watch videos.

Much love!

 

[marks]

As to everyone else being wrong, if an interpretation is not consistent with the entirety of Scripture, then what would you call that? It would be incorrect. It would be wrong.

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. There are any number of people who say they alone are right, and everyone else is wrong. Are we truly to think that God reveals this truth only to you?

So far I don't even know what you are talking about. I've posted the 4th decree, no comment? I'm interested in your ideas - at the moment - playing coy will let that moment pass by.

Much love!

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. There are any number of people who say they alone are right, and everyone else is wrong. Are we truly to think that God reveals this truth only to you?

Much love!

Obviously not. There is no personal revelation being done. Everything is listed - sourced, references - all there for verification. It's way too much to get into in a forum post. Sorry, you won't make time for videos. The videos are even a summary of the more complete explanation in my book. It takes time to understand. That's just the way it is. Too much confusion has been built up around this and it takes time to wade through it all and refute it and get to the actual understanding.

I've already explained why the true interpretation has only recently been known. The major problem has been church tradition. It's just flat out wrong. And anyone tied to it will never find the true understanding of the 70 Weeks. That's not arrogance. Just facts.

 

[marks]

Obviously not. There is no personal revelation being done. Everything is listed - sourced, references - all there for verification. It's way too much to get into in a forum post. Sorry, you won't make time for videos. The videos are even a summary of the more complete explanation in my book. It takes time to understand. That's just the way it is. Too much confusion has been built up around this and it takes time to wade through it all and refute it and get to the actual understanding.

I've already explained why the true interpretation has only recently been known. The major problem has been church tradition. It's just flat out wrong. And anyone tied to it will never find the true understanding of the 70 Weeks. That's not arrogance. Just facts.

I'm fairly well studied, fairly well smart, and rather Biblically literate, just try me out on the bottom line.

If not, OK, I understand, have a great day!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Where is this decree?

Your answer?

Much love!

 

[IndianaRob]

I’ve never understood why people don’t count 70 weeks as 70 weeks, it makes a lot more sense that way.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Wow! Some of that rare "critical reasoning"! Good stuff!!!

Much love!

I don't typically expect a response, but at times it's nice to get support, particularly if indeed we're correct!
Thanks brother....

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Your answer?

Much love!

That is the Ezra 6:14 Challenge. Those who want to spend the time to search out the answer will be rewarded.

[Pro 25:2 LSB] 2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are getting bogged down on non-essential details. What you describe, whether it be termed "figurative", "heavenly" or "spiritual" - it all implies that there were not 4 actual, distinct utterances that Ezra 6:14 specifically states were done.


"I think". "most unusual" "more naturally". That's the entire point in this. Do you know? Has anyone ever known? My claim is, no, unless you take the first command listed by Ezra as a literal historically accurate and dateable utterance, you won't correctly understand the 70 Weeks Prophecy.

I think that we have to take God's decree as primary, and then determine what He meant by that? If He meant to suggest that He is going to utilize the decrees--plural--of these 3 kings, then obviously it is not suggesting that only God's initial decree is being spoken of. Otherwise, why would it be said that God's Decree will lead to these 3 kings making decrees?

So when we're looking back from Daniel to decide what "decree" is being referenced, we have to go by the context of Daniel's passage, as opposed to just selecting the most important decree, such as "God's Decree." Daniel referred to a decree that would initiate something, and all of these decrees contributed in some way to starting the 70 Weeks Period. Never are we told that only the most important decree, "God's Decree," was in mind in Daniel's Prophecy.

So we aren't solving a riddle here. You're just proposing that there is one, and that nobody but you can solve it. How obtuse!

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I think that we have to take God's decree as primary, and then determine what He meant by that? If He meant to suggest that He is going to utilize the decrees--plural--of these 3 kings, then obviously it is not suggesting that only God's initial decree is being spoken of. Otherwise, why would it be said that God's Decree will lead to these 3 kings making decrees?

So when we're looking back from Daniel to decide what "decree" is being referenced, we have to go by the context of Daniel's passage, as opposed to just selecting the most important decree, such as "God's Decree." Daniel referred to a decree that would initiate something, and all of these decrees contributed in some way to starting the 70 Weeks Period. Never are we told that only the most important decree, "God's Decree," was in mind in Daniel's Prophecy.

So we aren't solving a riddle here. You're just proposing that there is one, and that nobody but you can solve it. How obtuse!

I didn't say that only I can solve it. Now you are misrepresenting my words. Anyone can see it. It's been there since the time of Jeremiah. It's just that no one spent the time to actually study it enough - or correctly. That is - Ezra did, the Magi did, most likely Anna and Simeon did. But the early church fathers had absolutely no clue.

And your middle paragraph is just about right on target.