The (7th) Abomination That Maketh Desolate

[Earburner]

Then why are you ignoring all the non-Rev scriptures that prove your one resurrection belief to be wrong?

You might want to go back to your own explanation, and then mine following, in #221 and #222.

For your understanding, you first must agree that ONLY Jesus is "the First resurrection", being "the firstborn from the dead" unto NEW LIFE, being that of Eternal LIFE, with Immortality.
Do you agree or disagree?

Therefore, all we who ARE spiritually "born again" of His Spirit, are NOW having  PART in HIS resurrection, who is Himself the very First.

Rev. 20[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath  PART in the first resurrection [who is Jesus-Col. 2:12, 3:1]: on such the second death [for disbelief- John 3:18] hath NO power, but they shall be [NOW] priests of God and of Christ, and shall [NOW] reign with him a thousand years, [aka: during this present Age of God's Grace- 2 Peter 3:9 and 15].

2 Peter 1
[4] Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises [of the Holy Spirit]: that by these ye might be PARTakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption [the 1st DEATH through Adam-John 3:18] that is in the world through lust.
James 1[15] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth [the 1st] DEATH.

Rev. 20
[15] And whosoever was NOT found WRITTEN in the book of life [who is Jesus] was cast into the lake of fire [The 2nd DEATH, for the reason of disbelief] (John 3:18).
(Ref. Luke 10[20]........ rejoice, BECAUSE your names ARE WRITTEN in heaven.).

According to the Holy Spirit through Paul (Col. 2:12, Col. 3:1), are you spiritually risen with Christ NOW, or are you not??
If you are not really sure, then maybe John 11:26 will convince you:
[26] And whosoever liveth AND believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[ewq1938]

You might want to go back to your own explanation, and then mine following, in #221 and #222.

No, YOU need to address each and every scripture that I posted that speaks fo two resurrections because you deny two resurrections. You sidestep and avoid all those scriptures every single time like you have done now.

 

[Douggg]

.

ewq 1938, please go to this thread and describe yourself.

Please describe yourself, regarding eschatology

In discussing eschatology, generally speaking, we all have variations in our basic view of things. Given that difference, results in the many varied opinions on a wide variety of topics. So for this thread, please describe yourself, using your words. Share with others, so we will know...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Earburner]

No, YOU need to address each and every scripture that I posted that speaks fo two resurrections because you deny two resurrections. You sidestep and avoid all those scriptures every single time like you have done now.

The concept of two separate resurrections:
1. The just,
2. The unjust,
is only in the mind of Premillenial believers.

I gave you strong argument, with NT scripture, for interpreting that part of Rev. 20. Apparently, your belief system can't keep up with that small percentage for understanding.
Edit:
1 Cor. 2[5] That your faith should NOT stand in the WISDOM of MEN**, but [rather] in the [Holy Spirit] power of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;
COMPARING spiritual things with spiritual.

**Note: "church-ianity".

If you haven't studied all of 1 Cor. ch. 2, then you really SHOULD!

 

[ewq1938]

is only in the mind of Premillenial believers.

You avoid all the scriptures that teach two resurrections so you only show that your position is wrong by doing this.

 

[Earburner]

You avoid all the scriptures that teach two resurrections so you only show that your position is wrong by doing this.

Ok, then I'll repeat the scriptures that disprove that there is to be a literal future thousand years AFTER Christ's return, so that you can focus on the context that describes WHAT "a thousand years" is really all about.

First and foremost, there is NO PRE-SET TIME LIMIT by God the Father on His present Age of Grace, through faith in Jesus.

So then, let's work out that equation of a thousand years is as one day, and one day is as a thousand years, to God.
You say that event is still in the future, but I say it began in the Day of Jesus' death and resurrection.
The answer is found in the words themselves, of how it is that God views "time", from the realm of His Eternity,..... where there is NO TIME.

From the context of 2 Peter 3:1-15, we learn that God intends to go the extreme distance in His sense of time, in order to SAVE as many that He can, even to the point of much "longsuffering" on his part, during His Age of Grace towards us. Please read 2 Peter 3:9 and 15 and learn of the reason WHY God IS STILL LONGSUFFERING.
He is still patiently waiting, right upto the point  WHEN men no more come towards Him in repentance, through faith in Jesus, in spite of the fact that the Gospel is STILL being preached upto the present.

However, before THAT DAY of Jesus' return, there shall come FIRST a falling away [from faith] in God and Jesus.
Mat. 24
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

That END, will be upon the Day of the Lord Jesus' sudden return from Heaven, in flaming fire. 2 Thes. 1:7-10.

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, then I'll repeat the scriptures that disprove that there is to be a literal future thousand years AFTER Christ's return

All you are doing is changing the subject so you don't have to face and address all the scriptures that speak of the two resurrections. You are using the red herring fallacy. We are discussing how many resurrections of the dead there are not when the thousand years takes place.

 

[Earburner]

All you are doing is changing the subject so you don't have to face and address all the scriptures that speak of the two resurrections. You are using the red herring fallacy. We are discussing how many resurrections of the dead there are not when the thousand years takes place.

The doctrines of "church-ianity" DO CAUSE blindness in the hearts of men. It's not that you don't or can't literally read the NT scriptures, but rather it's the preconcieved thoughts of their religious sci-fy fantasies that most Christians swallow.
"Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees", which is meaning: all who LEARN about Jesus through "the wisdom of men", such as "denominational" Bible Colleges, Seminaries, and all other manner of religious institutions. They only have a faith generated by religious persuasion.

Yes, they have a faith, but only according to "the wisdom of men", and therefore they do "STAND" in the fabrication of their own form of faith. Unfortunately, they DO NOT "KEEP the FAITH OF Jesus", but rather ONLY a substitution. These are they who Paul speaks of in 2 Tim.3[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Have you studied 1 Cor. 2 yet???

When one is born again, they ARE GIVEN the Promise of God's salvation, which was accomplished by the faith of Jesus.
[22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise, by faith of Jesus Christ, might be given to them that believe.

Jesus said:
I AM the resurrection.
John 11
[25] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead [in sin before God], yet shall he live [made to be sin-less before God]:
Rom. 8
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man HAVE NOT the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
IOWs, the power of Christ's resurrection IS NOT within them, who are none of His.
Col. 3
[1] IF ye then BE RISEN with Christ [present tense], seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Jesus Himself is that Promise of resurrection to ALL who LIVE IN Him and believe IN HIM.

You avoid all the scriptures that teach two resurrections so you only show that your position is wrong by doing this.

You are stuck on the "penny" in the dirt, called Premillenialism, when all the while you are missing the "treasure from heaven", that is in front of you, who is Himself the First Resurrection.
Col. 3:1- are you RISEN WITH Christ?? If you don't know yet, you better find out fast! Otherwise, you are just following a religious CONCEPT, "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof".

1 John 5
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

"To be IN the KoG, IS to be IN Jesus;
to be IN Jesus, IS to be IN the KoG".
"The KoG is WITHIN YOU", and not out there in some futuristic 1000 years on this remodeled, made over old Earth.

Most professing Christians haven't figured it out yet. We EACH ARE a temporary earthen "camp" unto the Lord, the very "house/mansion" of His dwelling, with that of His Own Righteousness within us.
2 Cor. 4
[7] But we have this treasure [of God Himself] in earthen vessels [our mortal bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
At the moment, all we are doing is waiting for Jesus' Glorious return, so that we can be "changed" into the likeness of HIS IMMORTALITY.

Don't you get it yet??
We ourselves are made to be the NEW Earth, and Jesus is our NEW heaven.
2 Peter 3
[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, WHERE-IN dwelleth [God's] righteousness.
Q. WHERE has God and His Righteousness always desired to dwell/tabernacle?
1. In His heaven.
2. Within the beings of His people.
3. On a New Earth.
The answer is #2.

 

[ewq1938]

The doctrines of "church-ianity" DO CAUSE blindness in the hearts of men.

You have endless ways to avoid the scriptures posted that prove two resurrections against your imaginary single resurrection.


Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"


Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

First group resurrection: "the just"
Second group resurrection: the "unjust"

Take note that in every passage where the resurrection of the saved and unsaved are mentioned that the saved or just is always mentioned first. That's important because it is they that resurrect first! Scripture never deviates in this order. Revelation, John, Daniel and Acts all say the saved first, then the unsaved in that exact order.

 

[Earburner]

You have endless ways to avoid the scriptures posted that prove two resurrections against your imaginary single resurrection.


Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"


Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

First group resurrection: "the just"
Second group resurrection: the "unjust"

Take note that in every passage where the resurrection of the saved and unsaved are mentioned that the saved or just is always mentioned first. That's important because it is they that resurrect first! Scripture never deviates in this order. Revelation, John, Daniel and Acts all say the saved first, then the unsaved in that exact order.

No, absolutely not. I am pointing to The First Resurrection, who is Jesus, the FIRSTborn from the dead. All we, who ARE born again, having mortal flesh, are taking PART IN His divine nature, by receiving His Spirit, during this present Age of God's Grace, ever since the death and Resurrection of Jesus. Therefore, all of such are spiritually Risen with Christ, while still alive in their mortal flesh, thus fulfilling the words of Jesus:
John 11
[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall NEVER die. Believest thou this?

Though our mortal bodies do die and perish, we ourselves will remain alive by the power of God's Holy Spirit within us, being asleep in Jesus in paradise.
All of such who have died in faith, are still waiting to be made into the likeness of His Immortality, on the Day of His Glorious appearance.

In that Day, those who had died in FAITH OF Christ, but now are only asleep in Christ, shall rise/awaken first, then we who are alive on earth, shall be changed instantaneously into the likeness of His Immortality.
1 Thes. 4
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring WITH HIM.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET the Lord IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[ewq1938]

No, absolutely not. I am pointing to The First Resurrection, who is Jesus, the FIRSTborn from the dead.

He is but he is not the first of two resurrections mentioned in any passages that discuss the physical resurrection of dead humans. You are side-stepping all of those passages so you don't have to face what they teach. The first group to resurrect are the saved/righteous and the second/last group to resurrect are the unsaved/unrighteous. Of all humans that have died, the saved will bodily resurrect first and much later all of the unsaved dead will rise.

 

[Earburner]

He is but he is not the first of two resurrections mentioned in any passages that discuss the physical resurrection of dead humans. You are side-stepping all of those passages so you don't have to face what they teach. The first group to resurrect are the saved/righteous and the second/last group to resurrect are the unsaved/unrighteous. Of all humans that have died, the saved will bodily resurrect first and much later all of the unsaved dead will rise.

Actually,....No. You are missing where the dead in Christ will be rising and coming from.
Clue: it's not from the Earth.

1 Thes. 4[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM.

 

[ewq1938]

Actually,....No. You are missing where the dead in Christ will be rising and coming from.
Clue: it's not from the Earth.

1 Thes. 4[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM.

We aren't discussing where they come from. The discussion is that you claim there is one resurrection but the bible many times says there are two. To avoid this, you keep tossing red herring fallacies to change the subject as you do here.

 

[Douggg]

We aren't discussing where they come from. The discussion is that you claim there is one resurrection but the bible many times says there are two. To avoid this, you keep tossing red herring fallacies to change the subject as you do here.

Hi ewq1938,

Three (mass) resurrections:
1. the rapture/resurrection event, no man knows the day nor hour.
2. the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints, at the start of the millennium, the first resurrection relative to the millennium.
3. the resurrection of the rest of the dead, the second resurrection relative to the millennium.

----------------------------------------------

Of course there is the one main resurrection that makes all the other resurrections back to life possible - that of Jesus's resurrection.

Also, there is the resurrection of the two witnesses after their bodies laying dead in the street of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days.

 

[ewq1938]

Hi ewq1938,

Three (mass) resurrections:
1. the rapture/resurrection event, no man knows the day nor hour.
2. the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints, at the start of the millennium, the first resurrection relative to the millennium.
3. the resurrection of the rest of the dead, the second resurrection relative to the millennium.

Scripture only speaks of two resurrections though. I posted a bunch of them in a couple of my recent posts. Theer have been many individual type resurrections but prophecy speaks of only two resurrections of dead humans. One is for the saved, and the other is for the unsaved.

The one in Rev 20 regarding the beheaded is the one for all the saved called the first resurrection but it focuses upon that smaller group but other scripture speaks of all the dead in Christ actually rising at that same timeframe so it is not a separate group rising outside of the two end times resurrections.

 

[Douggg]

Scripture only speaks of two resurrections though. I posted a bunch of them in a couple of my recent posts. Theer have been many individual type resurrections but prophecy speaks of only two resurrections of dead humans. One is for the saved, and the other is for the unsaved.

The second resurrection relative to the millennium includes both saved and unsaved. For example, infants and young children who have died - when are the resurrected ?

--------------------------------------------
Do you believe that a resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place at the same as the rapture ?

-------------------------------------------

The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is for them beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, nor his image, nor taken his mark in their foreheads or in their hands. So it is talking only about the Great Tribulation Martyrs, not the dead in Christ of other times.

And also there is not rapture of the living in Revelation 20:4.

 

[ewq1938]

The second resurrection relative to the millennium includes both saved and unsaved.

N0o, the dead in Christ rise first...there are none left over that resurrect later. The second resurrection is for all the rest, the unsaved. It is called the resurrection of damnation.

For example, infants and young children who have died - when are the resurrected ?

They are either in the first resurrection or the second.

--------------------------------------------
Do you believe that a resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place at the same as the rapture ?

Yes, just before the rapture.

-------------------------------------------

The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is for them beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, nor his image, nor taken his mark in their foreheads or in their hands. So it is talking only about the Great Tribulation Martyrs, not the dead in Christ of other times.

They aren't the only dead in Christ that rise at that time.

And also there is not rapture of the living in Revelation 20:4.

The rapture is not addressed there.

 

[Earburner]

KJV- John 5
[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done GOOD, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done EVIL, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 3:16-20.
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, BECAUSE he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Q. What is the EVIL that people DO, that brings to them condemnation/judgment against them by God?
A. They DID NOT choose to repent and "appear before the judgment seat of Christ" by faith (2 Cor. 5:10), for the forgiveness of sin, and to receive the Gift of God's Holy Spirit. John 3:18

Q. What is the GOOD that people DO, that brings to them NO condemnation/judgment against them by God?
A. They DID choose to repent and "appear before the judgment seat of Christ" by faith (2 Cor. 5:10), for the forgiveness of sin, and to receive the Gift of God's Holy Spirit. John 3:18

Now, Here are the two judgments of John 3:18 taking place simultaneously, in the Day WHEN Jesus is REVEALED from heaven, IN FLAMING FIRE:
2 Thes. 1:7-10
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us,  WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be  REVEALED from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Q. To you: WHEN is WHEN??
A. In the SAME DAY (24 hours) of Jesus Himself being REVEALED from heaven, in flaming fire.

Do you not recall the words of Jesus, about Lot and Sodom??
Luke 17:28-30
[28] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
[29] But the SAME DAY [24 hours] that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day WHEN the Son of man is REVEALED.

 

[Earburner]

We aren't discussing where they come from. The discussion is that you claim there is one resurrection but the bible many times says there are two. To avoid this, you keep tossing red herring fallacies to change the subject as you do here.

It's very important, even critical by necessity, to understand in which REALM,that the saved in Christ rise/awaken from. Is it in PARIDISE, or is it ON THE EARTH??
It is apparent that you think that the spiritually SAVED are still in their graves.
Such thinking would be a "grave" error in your understanding.

Until you understand that simple truth, I can't even begin to share the truth about "the rest of the dead".

You might want to think on this:
John 5
[25] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, AND NOW IS, when the dead [in sin] shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live [be born again of His Spirit].

 

[Timtofly]

Yes! All of the OC saints, who died in faith of the Messiah-Jesus, who was to come, were remembered by God in Malachi 3:16, and therefore were rewarded at the Cross of Jesus' death and resurrection. We see them as rewarded by being given the Gift of the Holy Spirit (white robes), and they now are resting and asleep in Jesus. Rev. 6:9-11. God did not forget them!!
They quite literally are the figurative 144,000 of Israel. They indeed are now virgins, being THE FIRSTFRUITS of God, who follow the Lamb wheresoever He goeth".

All of that world, prior to the first manifestation of Jesus in mortal flesh, was the "Age of Indignation", which came to an END at Jesus' Cross, of whom brought in the present "Age of God's Grace" (the figurative 1000 years of God's longsuffering over us and His Gift of Salvation, through faith in Jesus.- 2 Peter 3:9 and 15)
Unfortunatetly, "church-ianity" (the wisdom of men) attempts to marry those two Ages together, and therefore conjure up the doctrines of men, such as a "Pre-tribulation rapture" and "Pre-millenialism".

I agree with most all of what you say, but you are clearly misinformed about what happens "when" Jesus returns "in flaming fire".
In the KJV only- 2 Thes. 1:7-10, look for the word "WHEN", which is written in TWO places of those verses. It is describing a simultaneous event of destruction of ALL the unsaved wicked (graves included), and redemption for ALL the saints (OC. Saints of faith included). (Luke 17:28-30).
2 Thes. 1
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

They were not given white robes. You are selling the glorification mentioned by Paul as future and calling it the work of the Cross, as already completed. 75% of the entire church had not even been physically born yet.

The OT redeemed were given physical bodies and allowed to enjoy Paradise physically along with Jesus Christ. Yes, they had to wait, just like we will have to wait after the Second Coming, for the final harvest.

The 144k are a future final harvest when humanity's population was hundreds of times larger than at the time of the Cross.

You are selling the church short and not seeing the future at all.

You deny a physical body, but claim glorification, and that is the total opposite of what Paul taught. Paul taught a physical body was already available upon physical death, 2 Corinthians 5:1, and that being glorified was in the future. Putting on a robe of white is not a new body. Putting on a robe of white is being glorified. Even John pointed that out in 1 John 3:2

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

We are sons of God now, but we will appear as sons of God, that is putting on the robe of white.