The Alternative to a Rapture

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rebuilder 454

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Cont (8)
Quote @Keraz


Satan since Before manKIND was created, has been banished from His First Estate (mid Heaven), TO Earth, and has been BUSY for the past 6,000 years, of seducing and convincing men to Reject God. With some men Satan has succeeded, With other men WHO ARE made WHOLE (body, soul, spirit), Satan has failed, and God has succeeded.

No man who “IS” made WHOLE, is subject to Gods end of days WRATH…
Not the WRATH of the Lamb (during the Seals), Not the WRATH of the Devil (during the Seals and Trumps), Not the WRATH of God (during the bowls/vials).

Seriously…why WOULD the Lord God…be ANGRY, be WRATHFUL Against men HE has made WHOLE, and cause such men to be SUBJECT to…Gods Wrath He expressly sends down UPON the Earth?
* Hasn’t EVERY individual man upon the face of the earth, during his (era) Life-time upon the earth, Constantly been “subjected to”…
Tribulations, hardships, underhandedness, lying, cheating, oppressions, deceiving, wars, killings, fears, CAUSED…BY Fallen Angels AND Human men? Uh…ya! AND A FEW…having suffered through those Tribulations…WHILE NEVER abandoning their FAITH and their STANDING with God…
“Gods promise to THEM, if they be ALIVE upon the face of the earth WHEN God Himself sends wrath upon the earth”…?
THOSE, who ARE “MADE WHOLE”…shall NOT suffer Wrath sent down from Heaven!

“Yes”, Many people have a “GENERAL” perspective of HEAVEN…YET if you read and discover…there ARE Heaven(S), and human men HAVE and DO routinely go into the Lower Heavens. And while human men ARE IN the Lower Heavens, it is for but a short while, AND “IF” such men “ARE” IN tHE CLOUD of the Lower Heavens…
they “ARE” invisible to men “ON” Earth.

I believe the “RAPTURE” is AN Express term of LIFTING UP off the face of the Earth, BEFORE Gods Tribulation sent down from Heaven….Expressly and ONLY Applicable to Human men WHO HAVE BECOME MADE WHOLE (body, soul, spirit)…WHILE THE rest of the WORLD, (who has NOT been made WHOLE)…IS last minute Deciding, while experiencing…Great Wrath, and Tribulations.



I believe “EVERY” generation of manKIND who has ever occupied the face of the Earth, have experienced tribulations and hardships and “to some degree” Prophecy unfolding.

Agree, to your term “increasing” and would say, as the Earth’s population has increased exponentially (BILLIONS), so ALSO has Prophetic fulfillment, exponentially been unfolding.

“I believe”, we, IN the world, are “NEARING” the day of the Rapture…
AND those, OF the world, are “NEARING” Days of “the Lambs Wrath” and “days of Woes”.

Glory to God,
Taken
Not to mention the 2 escape verses, that prove the point you are making, as well as the baby Jesus taken away to avoid wrath.
 
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rebuilder 454

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quote @Keraz.



Earth is Dry Land…mankind’s Estate / Habitat.
Water IS NOT Earth.
Regardless of Noah BEING in a Ark…the Ark was RAISED UP ABOVE the face of the Earth.
The Ark was UPON the face of the Water.
The Waters of the FLOOD covered ALL of the Earth, including Mountain peaks.
The Waters of the FLOOD were 15 cubits, above the Mts. (Highest point of land) and the Height of the Ark 30 cubits.
A common cubit about 17 “.
A royal cubit about 20 “.
WE can readily SEE mountains and the high peaks with “CLOUDS”….WHICH ARE the lower Heaven(S).

Noah and his family were LIFTED UP “OFF” the “FACE” of the Earth, UPON “FACE of the WATERS”, (and no doubt, IN the Clouds).

Gen 7:
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

Cont (5)
Quote @Keraz



Disagree.


The FIRST Great Tribulation: (fewer People).
The FIRST Great Tribulation: The ENTIRE EARTH, was DESTROYED, ie. Covered with Water…IN 40 days.


BEFORE the Last Great Tribulation…THE “Converted IN Christ are REMOVED FROM the Face of the EARTH, TO the Clouds of the Lower Heavens”.

* IN a SIMILITUDE, as Noah was being raised UP off the face of the Earth…NOTHING whatsoever, PREVENTED men (other than Noah and his family) FROM CHOOSING to BELIEVE and CONFESS their Belief….Yet no account reveals any other men DID so.)

* DURING the Last Great Tribulation…
Billions of manKIND have and do occupy the Earth.
* Forty days Again to DESTROY the EARTH?
No.
* A SERIES of THREE “sets” of Events..
Called…judgements…
Called…Seals, Trumps, Bowls/Vials
* Each of the Three “sets” have SEVEN individual “aspects”.
Called 7 Seals, 7 Trumps, 7 Bowls/Vials
* Each of the 7+7+7= 21. “aspects”…
WHICH is NOTICE of “INCREASED” tribulation judgements OF God “UPON the face of the Earth”, which SHALL effect THOSE of manKIND who ARE “upon the face of the Earth”.

* BEFORE, DURING, AFTER…The Last Great tribulation sent down from God in Heaven…
MEN upon the face of the Earth…
ARE being bodily KILLED upon the Earth.
ARE becoming soul saved, spirit quickened, and bodily killed upon the face of the Earth.
SOME ARE becoming, bodily dead upon the face of the Earth, (without being soul saved or spirit quickened).

* ^ Completing…the SEALS, the TRUMPS…
PLus...
After the judgement Noah returns to earth.
Ahem, as in the pretrb rapture doctrine.
Noah and Lot are slam dunk billboards against any hope of a postrib rapture concept.
not to mention every rapture verse is peacetime, normal life and buying and selling.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Noah and his family were kept safe in the Ark, During the Great Trib, the faithful Christians will be kept safe in a distant place on earth. Revelation 12:14
That distant place is called Petra and cannot hold all christians. Remember it is a place alreadsy prepared for Israel not the church.

But time will tall if your post trib rapture holds true.

You didn't read the full post or else you wouldn't ask that.
I did read the full post and there is no historical dates given for the opening of the seals. Just a generic reference to wars and famines that have happened long before the NT church began.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Jesus said these things would happen and as the end times approach, they will increase in number and intensity. The labour pangs of the new age. That has been true over the last hundred years.
Today, it is obvious to anyone that we are at the edge of dramatic events. As Bible believers, we should know Gods plans and be prepared to stand firm in our faith thru it all. 1 Peter 4:12
There is nothing in Scripture that says they will increase in number or intensity. That is a man made mandate foisted upon Scripture.

The 20th century saw the nation against nation/ kingdom against kingdom take place with the Word Wars. Sam,e with the rebirth of Israel as God foretold. So these things let us know we are in the end times, but you have yet to point to specific singular events as Scripture declares that fulfill the six seals being opened.
 

Keraz

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There is nothing in Scripture that says they will increase in number or intensity. That is a man made mandate foisted upon Scripture.

The 20th century saw the nation against nation/ kingdom against kingdom take place with the Word Wars. Sam,e with the rebirth of Israel as God foretold. So these things let us know we are in the end times, but you have yet to point to specific singular events as Scripture declares that fulfill the six seals being opened.
Jesus said there would be increasing 'labour pangs', as the sign of the new age. Matthew 24:7-8
The Sixth Seal remains to be fulfilled, It will change the world and lead up to the glorious Return of Jesus.

Taken and Rebuilder; your determination to be raptured to heaven, is your fixed belief. Probably the only end time thing you have ever been taught and if you renounced it, your friends and family would think you have gone mad.
However, reading scriptures like Isaiah 14:32, Romans 9:24-26, shows that Zion, the Holy Land, is the destination for the Lords people, who are the faithful Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10

So; at the very least, my request to you, as fellow Christian believers, is to read and consider the scriptures which say how His faithful people will live in all of the Holy Land and be God's witnesses and His Light to the nations. Until Jesus Returns, then all who have proved their faith and trust in His protection, will go into the Millennium, as the priests and co-rulers under King Jesus.
 

Taken

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I wonder if the dude you are addressing thinks that when the disciples saw Jesus ascending into the sky, that he is still in the sky????
Or Elijah
Or Enoch
Or the 2 witnesses??????

IDK…Personally, i think many do not focus on the importance of the bit by bit, little by little revealed, as it was for centuries of men….More and more modern society wants in application to pretty much Everything…the Headline and Understanding…..Pfff with exerting effort on those time consuming facts that are full of little one-liner ah ha gems.
 

Taken

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Not to mention the 2 escape verses, that prove the point you are making, as well as the baby Jesus taken away to avoid wrath.

Yes…now if we had a toddler Bible, we could billet point, each step of the escape plan, and even then there would be debates over using the term “escape”.

Oh well, not my job make anyone understand…been that route, raising and teaching my deaf daughter. Was extremely time consuming, but necessary and why I speak in as much detail as possible, which some people hate.

God Bless You and Yours,
Taken
 

Ronald Nolette

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Jesus said there would be increasing 'labour pangs', as the sign of the new age. Matthew 24:7-8
The Sixth Seal remains to be fulfilled, It will change the world and lead up to the glorious Return of Jesus.

Taken and Rebuilder; your determination to be raptured to heaven, is your fixed belief. Probably the only end time thing you have ever been taught and if you renounced it, your friends and family would think you have gone mad.
However, reading scriptures like Isaiah 14:32, Romans 9:24-26, shows that Zion, the Holy Land, is the destination for the Lords people, who are the faithful Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10

So; at the very least, my request to you, as fellow Christian believers, is to read and consider the scriptures which say how His faithful people will live in all of the Holy Land and be God's witnesses and His Light to the nations. Until Jesus Returns, then all who have proved their faith and trust in His protection, will go into the Millennium, as the priests and co-rulers under King Jesus.
Well He gave the series of increasing signs, but Jesus never said the signs would increase in intensity.

Still waiting for you to show the dates that fulfill the first five seals being opened. If they have been fulfilled, it should not be hard to pinpoint their fulfilment. All fulfilled prophecies can be pointed to in history and shown as fulfilled. so I await you showing when these prophecies were fulfilled.
 
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Keraz

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Well He gave the series of increasing signs, but Jesus never said the signs would increase in intensity.
But He did, by using the example of a womans labor pangs, which di increase in intensity up to the birth.
Still waiting for you to show the dates that fulfill the first five seals being opened. If they have been fulfilled, it should not be hard to pinpoint their fulfilment. All fulfilled prophecies can be pointed to in history and shown as fulfilled. so I await you showing when these prophecies were fulfilled.
Jesus opened the first five Seals at His Ascension. At about 30 AD. Revelation 5:7 and 6:1-11
For proof, just google - the list of wars , famines, plagues and economic failures over the last 2000 years. Any worse disasters than what has happened, and mankind would have been wiped out.
But the clincher is the Fifth Seal, that has the souls of all the Christian martyrs since Stephen and still ongoing; kept under the Altar in heaven.
 

strepho

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Firstly; the general definition of a ‘rapture’, means being taken to live in heaven. This is believed by many, to happen before the Lord punishes the world and destroys His enemies. But scripture does not clearly say that anyone will be taken to heaven, excepting for the two Witnesses, Revelation 11:12, who are the last of the Christian martyrs killed for their faith during the 42 month period when Satan has world control.

The belief in a general rapture can only be made by inference and assumption. It has gained wide acceptance because it’s the easy way out.
We must discard any pretentious ideas of escape and removal from the earth. That idea directly opposes the Great Commission and the Words of Jesus where He says that it is impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13, John 17:15, Revelation 2:25

So: what are God’s Plans for His faithful people?

We live today, in a time of worldwide unrest and change, especially in the Middle East region. Many Bible Prophecies tell us that the Lord will clear and cleanse the Holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43. Zephaniah 1:14-18, 2 Peter 3:7

This dramatic event, the Lord’s terrible day of vengeance and wrath, will change the world. It will result in the formation of a One World Government, Daniel 7:23-24, but the Christian peoples will travel to and live in their heritage, of the entire Holy Land area, fulfilling their destiny of being Gods Light to the world and His witnesses to the nations; Isaiah 48:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 This scenario is confirmed by Isaiah 35…by the Way of Holiness….those people the Lord has redeemed, will enter Zion, with praise and thanksgiving, And in Romans 9:24-26, we Christians will be told: we are the children of the Living God, in the very same place as ancient Israel was rejected. Psalms 37:29, +

Friends and brethren, we look forward to an amazing future, where we can be a part of Gods wonderful Plan for His faithful peoples and enjoy His Blessings as we live in peace and prosperity under His protection. Ezekiel 38 & 39 demonstrate how the Lord will protect us from enemies.

When Jesus Returns, then the Prophecy in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 will take place. Those Christians who have proved their faith will meet Jesus in the air then be transported to Jerusalem, where He will be for the Millennium.

Keraz, the messenger
Good job. I admire shepherds who are bold and teach sound doctrine. Jesus has nice rewards for you when he returns. Faithful servants are hard to find. Keep plowing my friend.
 

rebuilder 454

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Well He gave the series of increasing signs, but Jesus never said the signs would increase in intensity.

Still waiting for you to show the dates that fulfill the first five seals being opened. If they have been fulfilled, it should not be hard to pinpoint their fulfilment. All fulfilled prophecies can be pointed to in history and shown as fulfilled. so I await you showing when these prophecies were fulfilled.
Well done.
That concept destroys the historical view completely.
How ironic that history testifies against that doctrine.
 
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rebuilder 454

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Good job. I admire shepherds who are bold and teach sound doctrine. Jesus has nice rewards for you when he returns. Faithful servants are hard to find. Keep plowing my friend.
Nope.
How can you guys go up to the barn, empty the shotgun ,and miss from 2 ft away?????
Impossible ,and yet some defy Jesus words ,to purposefully paint themselves into a corner, then defend the ridiculous twisting of scripture.
 

rebuilder 454

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IDK…Personally, i think many do not focus on the importance of the bit by bit, little by little revealed, as it was for centuries of men….More and more modern society wants in application to pretty much Everything…the Headline and Understanding…..Pfff with exerting effort on those time consuming facts that are full of little one-liner ah ha gems.
They heap teachers to themselves.
I can point to all the great men i surround myself with.
I constantly ask others to do the same, and about half turn the request down.
SMH
How ridiculous
 
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Ronald Nolette

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But He did, by using the example of a womans labor pangs, which di increase in intensity up to the birth.

Jesus opened the first five Seals at His Ascension. At about 30 AD. Revelation 5:7 and 6:1-11
For proof, just google - the list of wars , famines, plagues and economic failures over the last 2000 years. Any worse disasters than what has happened, and mankind would have been wiped out.
But the clincher is the Fifth Seal, that has the souls of all the Christian martyrs since Stephen and still ongoing; kept under the Altar in heaven.
You made the claim, so it is upon you to prove it.

So He opened five seals on approx. 30AD. Maybe you should read history and see that wars and famines and plagues and deaths. were just as common before His ascension as they have been after His ascension.

Earthquakes may have been just as common but we will never know for it is only in the last 70 or so years we have been able to accurately measure even small quakes of magnitude .5 to 1

Sorry but you rgeneric "just look" doesn't cut it when it comes to declaring prophecy fulfilled. All other prophecies have specific dates we can point to.

also for the first 3 1/2 centuries the western world was under the Pax Romana and there were very little wars going on.

And as far as the souls under the altar? You are not remembering well what Paul said that when we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord. Not under an altar crying for vengenance.

I am 100% convinced that the first 6 seals are pre-trib. But the first seal is the unveiling of THE Antichrist going out to conquer 3 of the ten kings to consolidate his world power. 2-3-4 are the consequences of his warring on a global scale. Five is post rapture saints awaiting teh first resurrection of Rev. 20 after Jesus has returned and the beast and false prophet are abyssed.

The sixth seal is when the antichrist, now a world power signs the 7 year covenant with Israel starting the 70th week of Daniel.

But as for the Olivet discourse, the wars and rumors of wars are the beginning of sorrows. Just the early birth PANGS THAT ARE SMALL AND FAIRLY MILD LIKE WHEN A WOMEN GOES INTO EARLY LABOR.

WW1 and WW2 may be probable fulfilments of nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom. I prefer this as when the antichrist wars with teh ten kings to overcome three. Israel being reborn in 1948 asd a nation definitely fulfills ez. 38-39 latter days as well as teh shekel restored, ancinet Hebrew restored.

See we can point to specific events to show specific prophecies fulfilled. Not just some generic well we have had wars and faminies and shortages with price increases here and there for 2 millenia. that just is sloppy hermeneutics and exegesis and is more eisegesis.
 

Taken

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They heap teachers to themselves.
I can point to all the great men i surround myself with.
I constantly ask others to do the same, and about half turn the request down.
SMH
How ridiculous

These ARE Very Strange Days, and the Precepts (behaviors), between and among manKIND, a prelude to dastardly days.
 

Keraz

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So He opened five seals on approx. 30AD. Maybe you should read history and see that wars and famines and plagues and deaths. were just as common before His ascension as they have been after His ascension.
Actually, the Four Horsemen were doing their thing on earth in ancient times. Zechariah 1:8-11 & 6:1-8
But simply with population increase up to now, their disasters affect many more people.

Why must you reject the fact of the first 5 Seals being opened?
And as far as the souls under the altar? You are not remembering well what Paul said that when we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord. Not under an altar crying for vengenance.
A direct rejection of clearly stated scripture. Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 19:1-3
The sixth seal is when the antichrist, now a world power signs the 7 year covenant with Israel starting the 70th week of Daniel.
It will be the Sixth Seal, Day of the Lord's fiery wrath; worldwide disaster, Revelation 6:12-17, that will cause a One World Govt to be formed, soon to be led by a man, who will be revealed as the Anti-Christ.
 

Keraz

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Come to Worship the Lord in Jerusalem:
Isaiah 26:21 & Isaiah 27:1 The Lord is coming from His dwelling place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their sins. Their crimes will be revealed, all their wrongdoing exposed to view and on that Day, the Lord, with His cruel sword will punish Satan, that great deceiver.

Isaiah 27:2-5 On that great Day, that the Lord destroys His enemies, He will look to His people; Israel the vine, Judah the fig tree. He has given them every opportunity to obey His commands, but they have not been faithful. If only they were not My Covenant people, says the Lord, I would have trampled them down like weeds. Now, if they come to Me for refuge and make their peace with Me, I will bless them and they will fill the earth with righteousness.

Isaiah 27:6-9 In time to come Jacob’s descendants [natural and spiritual] will settle into all of the holy Land, they will live there in peace and prosperity. The Lord will not strike them as He will with the enemies. He will slaughter their attackers and wipe out those who hate His people. [The Islamic attackers now and later; the Gog/Magog attack]

The Lord’s judgement against the Israelites [all 12 tribes] has been expiated by their exile from the holy Land, their iniquity has now been wiped out. This removal of their sins has the result that they destroy all traces of what caused their transgressions.

Isaiah 27:10-13 On the Day that the Lord takes action, military ordnances will be destroyed, what is left will be used as fuel for cooking. All those people who failed to revere their Maker are without sense. He will give them no mercy, He who formed them will show them no favour.

On that Day, the Lord will search for His people. He will sound the trumpet call for all those of the House of Israel who were lost in Assyria and those of the House of Judah, dispersed around the world. They will be gathered one by one and will come to worship their God on Jerusalem’s holy Mountain.


Isaiah 43:1-2 But now, you Israelites, this is the Word of the Lord, your Creator: Have no fear, for I have redeemed you. I will call you by name, you are Mine. When you pass through water I will be with you, it will not overwhelm you. You will pass through fire and not be scorched, the Day of flaming retribution will not burn you. Psalms 97:1-12, 2 Peter 3:7, Malachi 4:2
Ref: REB. Abridged and paraphrased.

The great story, to happen in the very near future:
The Lord will use a natural event to punish the world for its sins. On that great Day, a CME sunstrike will burn up the attackers of Israel and wipe out those who hate Jesus, Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12, Zephaniah 1:143-18 On that terrible Day of His flaming retribution, Isaiah 30:26-30, the Lord will look to His people, all who call upon His Name and protect them from the scorching fire that will envelope the earth, Isaiah 13:9-13, Zephaniah 3:8, Malachi 4:1-3, then He will gather all faithful Christians, be they Jacob’s descendants or grafted in, into the holy Land. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 10:17-23, Romans 9:24-27

There, they will at last, be as God intended: a holy people, a light to the nations and sending out 144,000 missionaries to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 14:1-7
 

Keraz

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Go, My people, withdraw for a little while.....
Isaiah 26:20-21.....until the Lords wrath has passed. The Lord is coming to punish the wicked and apostate peoples of the earth. Isaiah 66:15-17, Revelation 6:12-17

Isaiah 27:1 On that Day, the Lord will punish with His powerful sword Leviathan, that twisting serpent.

Isaiah 27:2-5 On that day, sing of the fruitful vineyard – I the Lord am it’s keeper. I tend it constantly, but I get no fruit from it. If only it were briars and thorns, then I would not hesitate to destroy it. But if they [Israelites, now every faithful Christian person] come to Me for refuge, I will let them make peace with Me.

Isaiah 27:6 In time to come, Jacobs posterity will prosper and Israel will flourish. They will fill the whole earth with fruit. Matthew 21:43

Isaiah 27:7-9 Has the Lord struck Israel, as He has killed their enemies? The atonement for Jacob’s guilt is made by their sojourn in exile. All the idol worshipping altars and sacred poles are destroyed.

Isaiah 27:10 The fortified settlement is abandoned. Animals graze there and the trees are dead, good only for firewood.

Isaiah 27:11 For this is a people without understanding, so their Maker will not show them favour.

Isaiah 27:12 In that day, the Lord will thresh the grain from the Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt and you: Israelites will be gathered one by one. [Individual Overcomers] On that Day, a great trumpet will sound and those who were exiled in Assyria and Egypt will come to worship the Lord in Jerusalem.
Ref: REB, NIV some verses abridged

V 20-21 Go My people…. This a complete and utter refutation of the false teaching of a ‘rapture’ removal.
All righteous people, faithful Christians who love the Lord, need to prepare for a time, soon after the Lords Day of vengeance, when the Call comes to gather into the Promised Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

V 1 The Lords Day of wrath and vengeance against His enemies, who are led by Satan allegorised as a serpent. Isaiah 30:27-28

V 2-5 The Lord’s vineyard: People who acknowledge and trust God, He will save them.

V 6 Israel, that is: some of the 12 tribes, plus those grafted in who are faithful believers, settled into the Land, they will be His witnesses and the Light to the nations.

V 7-9 The sins of the forefathers are expiated by their exile. Isaiah 10:27

V 10 The Land, cleared and swept clean after the Day of vengeance. The trees are killed because of the fire the Lord will send: a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26, Joel 1:15-20, Isaiah 32:12-14, Malachi 4:1

V 11 This refers to the current inhabitants of the Land. Jeremiah 12:14

V 12 On that day, all the Middle East region will be judged and punished. A Jewish remnant will be saved. But then the surviving exiles from Assyria [the 10 Northern tribes] and Egypt [Judah] will gather into all ofthe Holy Land, along with every faithful Christian from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Zechariah 9:14-17, Revelation 7:9