The Alternative to a Rapture

[Keraz]

Firstly; the general definition of a ‘rapture’, means being taken to live in heaven. This is believed by many, to happen before the Lord punishes the world and destroys His enemies. But scripture does not clearly say that anyone will be taken to heaven, excepting for the two Witnesses, Revelation 11:12, who are the last of the Christian martyrs killed for their faith during the 42 month period when Satan has world control.

The belief in a general rapture can only be made by inference and assumption. It has gained wide acceptance because it’s the easy way out.
We must discard any pretentious ideas of escape and removal from the earth. That idea directly opposes the Great Commission and the Words of Jesus where He says that it is impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13, John 17:15, Revelation 2:25

So: what are God’s Plans for His faithful people?

We live today, in a time of worldwide unrest and change, especially in the Middle East region. Many Bible Prophecies tell us that the Lord will clear and cleanse the Holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43. Zephaniah 1:14-18, 2 Peter 3:7

This dramatic event, the Lord’s terrible day of vengeance and wrath, will change the world. It will result in the formation of a One World Government, Daniel 7:23-24, but the Christian peoples will travel to and live in their heritage, of the entire Holy Land area, fulfilling their destiny of being Gods Light to the world and His witnesses to the nations; Isaiah 48:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 This scenario is confirmed by Isaiah 35…by the Way of Holiness….those people the Lord has redeemed, will enter Zion, with praise and thanksgiving, And in Romans 9:24-26, we Christians will be told: we are the children of the Living God, in the very same place as ancient Israel was rejected. Psalms 37:29, +

Friends and brethren, we look forward to an amazing future, where we can be a part of Gods wonderful Plan for His faithful peoples and enjoy His Blessings as we live in peace and prosperity under His protection. Ezekiel 38 & 39 demonstrate how the Lord will protect us from enemies.

When Jesus Returns, then the Prophecy in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 will take place. Those Christians who have proved their faith will meet Jesus in the air then be transported to Jerusalem, where He will be for the Millennium.

Keraz, the messenger

 

[quietthinker]

Keraz, the messenger

of poorly understood eschatology!

 

[Keraz]

of poorly understood eschatology!

Typical. Shoot the messenger!

QT, If you disagree with the Prophesies I present, then the proper way of rebuttal is to provide scriptures that refute them.
With the 'rapture to heaven' theory, there can be no rebuttal, as no prophecy says any such thing.

 

[Keraz]

Don't you teach a pretrib rapture but instead of the destination being heaven, you believe it is a safe place on the Earth? You spoke of this in another thread and cited the verses in Rev 12 regarding the woman who is flown to a safe place. You also spoke of Christians that had made some type of mistake, who were essentially punished by having to be in the unsafe tribulation. That is EXACTLY what typical dispensational pretrib believers teach and believe, with the MINOR difference between the rapture's destination.

The removal to a safe location on earth of the group of faithful Christians, for the 1260 day period of the GT, is plainly stated in Revelation 12:6 &14 It will be pre the Great Tribulation, but not before the terrible day of the Lords fiery wrath. the Sixth Seal world changer.
The Christian group who will have to stay in the Holy Land, under the control of the 'beast', are mentioned in Revelation 12:17
Daniel 11:32 tells us how they get divided. Zechariah 14:2b also mentions those two groups.

The destination of the first group - on earth, as against the dispy pre-trib teaching - in heaven, is far from 'minor'. The first is a demonstration of the Lords protection for His own, the other idea is a fable, an unreal dream that Jesus said was impossible.

 

[Keraz]

The differences between your beliefs on the rapture and dispy-Pretrib are almost identical. The only difference I can see is the destination of those raptured.

You don't look very hard. The taking to a place of safety of the Christian group who refused to agree to the 7 year treaty with the leader of the One World Govt, is by the wings of a mighty eagle... Revelation 12:14
My thinking on what the prophecy is referring to; is the US Air Force. Flying from point to point around the world is far from what 'rapture' believers firmly believe will happen. [Though they aren't sure whether their clothes will stay on, or remain on the footpath!]

Both views are wrong. The rapture is after the trib has ended and is not to keep people safe from the AC or the time of the tribulation

What happens when Jesus Returns, is not a 'rapture', but a gathering and another transportation from point A; their place of safety, to point B; Jerusalem, where Jesus will be for the Millennium. Matthew 24:31

I find it sad how people whose beliefs are challenged, flail about making baseless accusations rather that providing proofs of their beliefs. There can be only one reason for this inability; what I present is right and you are wrong.

 

[quietthinker]

Typical. Shoot the messenger!

QT, If you disagree with the Prophesies I present, then the proper way of rebuttal is to provide scriptures that refute them.
With the 'rapture to heaven' theory, there can be no rebuttal, as no prophecy says any such thing.

There is no shooting Keraz. It is calling it as it is. It's your interpretation of the Prophecies you present which I disagree with, not the Prophecies.
Now I know you don't agree with this however, I also know you are so enamoured with your point of view, even if I presented a truckload of scripture you wouldn't hear them. I feel you have deified your paradigm and how dare anyone question it.

That said, I am not championing 'the rapture' as it is generally understood.

 

[ewq1938]

What happens when Jesus Returns, is not a 'rapture', but a gathering and another transportation from point A; their place of safety, to point B; Jerusalem, where Jesus will be for the Millennium. Matthew 24:31

When do you believe the harpazo happens?

 

[Jack]

What happens when Jesus Returns, is not a 'rapture', but a gathering and another transportation from point A; their place of safety, to point B; Jerusalem, where Jesus will be for the Millennium.

Wannabee imagination! You ain't Israel.

 

[PinSeeker]

Firstly; the general definition of a ‘rapture’, means being taken to live in heaven.

This is incorrect. The definition of the Koine Greek verb 'harpazō' used in the New Testament is "to seize upon, spoil, snatch away or take to oneself.” Nothing about removal or taken somewhere else is intimated in any way in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 or anywhere else. This seizing is what will happen when Jesus returns. He will take to Himself what has been given to Him by the Father, and "we will always be with the Lord." Simultaneous to this will be the second resurrection, described in John 5:28-29. And then the final Judgment will take place in short order, after which those resurrected to judgment will depart, will go away into everlasting judgment as Scripture and even Jesus Himself explicitly says in various passages. This will all happen after the close of this age, the millennium of Revelation 20, in which all God's elect have been brought into His Israel.

This is believed by many, to happen before the Lord punishes the world and destroys His enemies. But scripture does not clearly say that anyone will be taken to heaven, excepting for the two Witnesses, Revelation 11:12, who are the last of the Christian martyrs killed for their faith during the 42 month period when Satan has world control.

Revelation 11:1-14 gives a general visionary representation of the witness of the church and God’s preservation and vindication of the witness. The two witnesses are two lampstands (Revelation 11:4), that is, two churches (as in Revelation 1:20). The 42 months is a limited time of distress and intense conflict between God’s people and their opponents (Revelation 13:5). It is also described as 1260 days (Revelation 11:3; 12:6) or a time, times, and half a time (three and a half years; Revelation 12:14). It is half of seven years, which from a symbolic point of view suggests a complete period of suffering, cut short by half. The main background is found in Daniel 7:25, which in turn is related to other passages in Daniel (9:27; 12:7, 11-12). Like other numbers in Revelation, this one is symbolic in character, and related to the three and a half days in Revelation 11:9, 11. It then designates a period of persecution of limited length. It is intimately associated with what Jesus says in Matthew 24:22, that "for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."

The belief in a general rapture can only be made by inference and assumption. It has gained wide acceptance because it’s the easy way out.

Not at all. Jesus says in Matthew 5:28-29 (cited above), "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." These are not two separate events. That this second resurrection is general cannot be avoided but by denial.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keraz]

When do you believe the harpazo happens?

Paul is quite clear: When the Lord Jesus descends from heaven,,,,,,1 Thess 4:16
At the glorious Return Jesus will send out His angels to gather His faithful peoples, Matthew 24:31. Mostly those from the place of safety.
They will be His priests and co-rulers on earth. Revelation 5:10

 

[Wick Stick]

The belief in a general rapture can only be made by inference and assumption. It has gained wide acceptance because it’s the easy way out.
We must discard any pretentious ideas of escape and removal from the earth. That idea directly opposes the Great Commission and the Words of Jesus where He says that it is impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13, John 17:15, Revelation 2:25

As nearly as I can tell, the Bible says that Jesus is returning. Not doing a drive-by.

 

[PinSeeker]

Paul is quite clear: When the Lord Jesus descends from heaven,,,,,,1 Thess 4:16

I agree wholeheartedly. But how can you see in that passage ~ because it is surely not there ~ that with or without anyone He then returns to heaven?

Grace and peace to you, Keraz.

 

[Keraz]

This is incorrect. The definition of the Koine Greek verb 'harpazō' used in the New Testament is "to seize upon, spoil, snatch away or take to oneself.” Nothing about removal or taken somewhere else is intimated in any way in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 or anywhere else. This seizing is what will happen when Jesus returns. He will take to Himself what has been given to Him by the Father, and "we will always be with the Lord.

As described in Matthew 24:31
My point is that this gathering is not to heaven, but to Jerusalem, where Jesus will be for the next thousand years.

" Simultaneous to this will be the second resurrection, described in John 5:28-29. And then the final Judgment will take place in short order, after which those resurrected to judgment will depart, will go away into everlasting judgment as Scripture and even Jesus Himself explicitly says in various passages. This will all happen after the close of this age, the millennium of Revelation 20, in which all God's elect have been brought into His Israel.

The only people resurrected when Jesus Returns, will be the martyrs killed during the last 3 1/2 years. Revelation 20:4
The idea that we are in the Millennium now is wrong and easily disproved. The Final Judgment does not happen until the 7000 years decreed by God for mankind, is over.
The Bible gives the time periods which add up to 5993 years since Adam, until today.

Revelation 11:1-14 gives a general visionary representation of the witness of the church and God’s preservation and vindication of the witness. The two witnesses are two lampstands (Revelation 11:4), that is, two churches (as in Revelation 1:20). The 42 months is a limited time of distress and intense conflict between God’s people and their opponents (Revelation 13:5)

Your opinion. An unnecessary complication of a simple narrative.
What Rev 11 does say is that there will be two men in Jerusalem, who will preach and prophesy during the time of satanic control. They will be killed 3 1/2 days before Jesus Returns. He will call them to Him, resurrecting them, along with the rest of the GT martyrs.

It is intimately associated with what Jesus says in Matthew 24:22, that "for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."

Reading the context of Matthew 24:21-22, the time of troubles......will be cut short.
The time of huge change and troubles for the world will commence with the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 14:16-20, Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7, +
The time of world Satanic control is specified in 3 ways: 1260 days, 42 months and 3 1/2 years. That is immutable.
Therefore it will be the Sixth Seal which is shortened, or reduced in its intensity and effects.

Not at all. Jesus says in Matthew 5:28-29 (cited above), "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." These are not two separate events. That this second resurrection is general cannot be avoided but by denial.

But they are separate events. There is no general resurrection when Jesus Returns.
He is Prophesying in Matthew 5, about the Great White Throne Judgment, to take place after the Millennium.

 

[Keraz]

I agree wholeheartedly. But how can you see in that passage ~ because it is surely not there ~ that with or without anyone He then returns to heaven?

Grace and peace to you, Keraz.

I surely don't see that Jesus goes back to heaven, but millions of deceived people do.
That is why I post the truth of what our destiny really is.

 

[Rockerduck]

This is the rapture Jesus is talking about that the Apostle Paul expanded on.

Matthew 24:39-41 - and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

The Lord gave me a vision that supports this. I saw two adults, male and female slow dancing. They had their arm around each other, then the male shot straight up in a split second (as Apostle Paul states, "in the twinkling of an eye.") the women was left and still had her arms up dancing.

 

[PinSeeker]

My point is that this gathering is not to heaven, but to Jerusalem, where Jesus will be for the next thousand years.

And ~ I'm being a bit facetious with this ~ where's He going after that? No, when He comes back, heaven and earth will finally be one. He won't be going anywhere, nor will He take anyone with Him, either at His return or any number of years after.

The only people resurrected when Jesus Returns, will be the martyrs killed during the last 3 1/2 years. Revelation 20:4

Well, this is where we could get into the misunderstanding of the first resurrection by many.

The idea that we are in the Millennium now is wrong and easily disproved.

And this is due to the misunderstanding of God's millennium.

The Final Judgment does not happen until the 7000 years decreed by God for mankind, is over.
The Bible gives the time periods which add up to 5993 years since Adam, until today.

Hm. Well, I agree that there is a set time/day... appointed, by God, as it were... that the end will come. But there are, unfortunately, many who think they know...

Your opinion. An unnecessary complication of a simple narrative.

I'm very much okay with you calling it my opinion ~ , although there's no "complication," except in the sense that it complicates your... complication ~ but, well, your take is your opinion. You will say, "Oh, but I can go into great detail about Old Testament prophecies and all of Scripture to prove what I say is correct." Well, I can, too...

What Rev 11 does say is that there will be two men in Jerusalem, who will preach and prophesy during the time of satanic control. They will be killed 3 1/2 days before Jesus Returns. He will call them to Him, resurrecting them, along with the rest of the GT martyrs.

Hm, well... see directly above. The 3 and a half is symbolic (like so many other things in Revelation) ~ certainly symbolizing a literal time period ~ but all we can really say is that it is a time cut short.

Reading the context of Matthew 24:21-22, the time of troubles......will be cut short.

Right, which is exactly what I said.

The time of huge change and troubles for the world will commence with the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 14:16-20, Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7, +
The time of world Satanic control is specified in 3 ways: 1260 days, 42 months and 3 1/2 years. That is immutable.
Therefore it will be the Sixth Seal which is shortened, or reduced in its intensity and effects.

I agree with the immutable part. But we should not be so wooden and literalistic with the time. As I'm sure you know, to God a thousand years is as a day, There is an allotted time for these things, certainly, but what that time really is we cannot know. You will say, "Yes we can, because we are told!" Well, yes, but no. Which, I'm sure you'll dismiss as ridiculous, but so be it. We cannot know beyond the understanding that three and a half years are seven years cut in half, signifying what aspired to completeness but will be cut off half way.

But they are separate events.

Ah, so He says they are not, that they encompass the one event ~ kind of like the first and second half make up a football or basketball game ~ but they are separate, despite what He says? I mean here it is again:

"...an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28-29)​

The phrase starting with "those" is an appositive phrase, whose antecedent is "all who are in their tombs," and it all happens at "an hour" (certainly not two hours and not separated by any time, much less a thousand years. I do agree that it is immutable...

There is no general resurrection when Jesus Returns.

See above. All who are in there tombs means... all who are in their tombs.

He is Prophesying in Matthew 5, about the Great White Throne Judgment, to take place after the Millennium.

I agree on this! Yes, the final Judgment, described in Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46, and Revelation 20:11-15, will take place very soon after Christ's return, His final victory over Satan, and the second (general) resurrection, so much so as to really be considered one big Event.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I surely don't see that Jesus goes back to heaven...

Maybe I misunderstood you, but I seem to remember you postulating just that. Okay, I see you saying above "removal to a safe place on earth." Okay, well I disagree with that, too.

...I post the truth of what our destiny really is.

Ah. Gotcha.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keraz]

Okay, well I disagree with that, too.

Seems we are too far apart for any sort of consensus.
While you grip onto the idea of the Millennium now; the AMill theory, your views of end time events mean you have to make plainly stated scriptures mean something else.

As long as you keep your Christian faith and trust in the Lord to save you, we should meet in the Holy Land.
See you there!
PS, I won't be critical of peoples mistakes and wrong beliefs, as I know God has hidden the truth from you. Matthew 11:25

 

[ewq1938]

Paul is quite clear: When the Lord Jesus descends from heaven,,,,,,1 Thess 4:16

Would that event take place within Rev 12?

 

[Keraz]

Would that event take place within Rev 12?

No.
1 Thess 4:16-17; happens when Jesus Returns. He only descends from heaven the once.
On His terrible Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, He sends His fiery wrath, Amos 1 & 2:1-5, Psalms 11:4-6