The Alternative to a Rapture

[ewq1938]

But where would that place the trumps?

Trumps are events and actions that happen when they sound. They are chronological in nature and have been sounding. No one knows what trump we are in because they are symbolic and vague at times but if the trib is near, we would be in the 4th or 5th trump, because I believe the trib is the 6th trump.

People just think the seals are real time events like the trumps but they are visions of what happens in each one of the trumps, not their own unique events separate from the trumps.

 

[Keraz]

No seals have been opened yet. You should know that!

It is patently obvious that the first five Seals were opened when Jesus Ascended.
We have had all the terrible wars, the shocking famines and disastrous plagues. The Christian martyrs started with the murder of Stephen.
These are undeniable facts.

But nothing like what the Day of the Lords fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal has occurred yet. That Day will set the scene for all the end time events, leading up to the glorious Return.

But where would that place the trumps?

The 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, will commence at the mid point of the final seven years of this age. During the 1260 day period of Satanic world control.

 

[Truthnightmare]

I believe we all see it a bit different, end time prophecy will always be a bit tricky as we are in many ways learning as we go.

Christ comes in the Seventh Trump only because there is no eighth. But the Seven Vials happen during the Seventh Trump. Observe the transition from the Seventh Trump to the First Vial.
The Seventh Trump​

Rev 11:15-19
15 And the seventh angel sounded [7th Trump] ; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. KJV​

You notice that there is no Second Advent yet. The above is the end of the 11th chapter. Chapters 12-15 are parenthetical, and are not a continuation of the above chronology. Then chapter 16 picks up at the first Vial:
The First Vial​

Rev 16 [complete chapter]
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial [1st Vial] upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. KJV​

And for all that, still no Second Advent yet. Then chapters 17-18 are parenthetical. And then in the 19th chapter we come to the Second Advent.
The literal Second Advent of the Messiah Jesus Christ:​

Rev 19:11-21
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him [to Earth; i.e., the 2nd Advent] upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. KJV​

First Vial:
(Mark of the beast already administered, and now punished)​

Rev 16:2
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial [1st Vial] upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.​

For comparison, compare the events in the First Seal and First Trump:
First Seal:
(The Tribulation begins)​

Rev 6:1-3a
1 And I saw when the Lamb [Jesus] opened one of the seals [the 1st Seal] , and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3 And when he had opened the second seal.... KJV​

First trump:
(Still no mark of the beast)​

Rev 8:7
7 The first angel sounded [the 1st Trump], and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. KJV​

Therefore, these seven events in each of the three sets (Seals, Trumps, and Vials [of wrath]) cannot be one in the same seven events.
Helpful as well would be to observe the transition from the Seventh Seal to the First Trump. (Remember, The chronological order is Seals, then Trumps, then Vials.):​

Rev 8:1-7
8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7 The first angel sounded [the 1st Trump], and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. KJV​

 

[Taken]

Firstly; the general definition of a ‘rapture’, means being taken to live in heaven.

No. It means being lifted up off the face of the Earth.

But scripture does not clearly say that anyone will be taken to heaven…

So? Why are you attempting to make an Argument For the Rapture, WITH YOUR WORDS?

WHO said anything about being taken to heaven? Aside from you?

 

[Earburner]

When Jesus Returns, then the Prophecy in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 will take place. Those Christians who have proved their faith will meet Jesus in the air then be transported to Jerusalem, where He will be for the Millennium.

Because you left out what describes that which is the results of your biblical quote, KJV 1 Thes. 4:16-17 doesn't say what you are implying.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

> To be included with your quote:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If there is to be any implication, the last 9 words of vs. 17 reveal WHERE WE ALL shall be, AFTER WE ALL meet the Lord in the air.
"....we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them [who had previously died in Christ] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, AND SO shall we ever be with the Lord.

It doesn't say or imply that we who are of heavenly Jerusalem, shall descend to earthly Jerusalem. Gal. Ch. 4.

 

[Taken]

The belief in a general rapture can only be made by inference and assumption.

Rapture is simply a term that means “caught up”….


The Rapture, “catching up” to the clouds…above the face of the earth…IS Specific, NOT General.

The Rapture “specifically” applies to:
Any person who has BECOME “converted’ IN Christ.

A Person “specifically” IS a BODY and embodied SOUL, with a spirit.

A Converted Person IS a Body, WHO heartfully Believes in the Lord God “AND” has heartfully CONFESSED their belief.

A Converted Person is NOT appointed to suffer Wrath.

The First. Great Tribulation of the World, was Orchestrated, by God In Heaven, Because of His Wrath and Sent Down upon the face of the Earth, to Destroy the inhabitants upon the face of Earth.

Eight embodied souls (ie persons) ESCAPED, destruction upon the face of the earth, by being Lifted UP above the face of the earth.

The Second (and Last Great Tribulation of the World), SHALL Be Orchestrated by the Lord God IN Heaven, Again Because of His Wrath, and such Great Tribulations upon the face of the earth, SHALL (negatively) Affect, ALL persons upon the face of the earth, who are NOT “converted IN. Christ Jesus”…
Believers, non-believers, Jews, Gentiles…they have NO ESCAPE …

WHO DOES the catching up / Rapture APPLY to: THOSE who are NOT appointed to WRATH.
WHO is NOT appoint to WRATH? Those WHO HAVE obtain-ED salvation.

1 Thes 5:
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

What is a man WHO HAS obtained salvation Called? CONVERTED IN Christ.

What is the similitude to NOAH’S day, during the First Great Tribulation?

1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matt 24:
[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark…

Where did Noah GO once he and his family entered the ark?

Gen 7:
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

How HIGH above the FACE of The Earth did the ark carrying Noah and his family go?

Gen 7:
[19] And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
[20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

What IS Earth? Dry Land (Gen 1:10)

What IS in the Air Above the Mt. Tops?
Clouds.

Matt 24:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Rom 1:
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Doesn’t matter IF you do not read, hear, learn, or understand….
The Lord God IS neither Angry or sending His Wrath and Tribulations from Heaven UPON men who HAVE Become Cleansed of Unrighteousness and Converted IN Christ.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Typical. Shoot the messenger!
With the 'rapture to heaven' theory,…

A messenger carry’s a message of an other.

Who is this “other”, that is saying….”Rapture to Heaven” ? Cuz, that, Only appears as “your words”.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Or

All the seals have been opened. You should know that!

Jesus opened them when he ascended into heaven which is why he appeared to John as a slain Lamb and also explains why at first no one could find him or anyone worthy to open the seals. Once Jesus went back to heaven he stays there at the right hand of the Father. The seals are prophecies, not events happening when they were opened.

So then show from history the antichrist riding to war, animals losing their fear of man and eating us, and most of all the events of the sixth seal.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It is patently obvious that the first five Seals were opened when Jesus Ascended.
We have had all the terrible wars, the shocking famines and disastrous plagues. The Christian martyrs started with the murder of Stephen.
These are undeniable facts.

So what makes the new testament wars and famines and plagues fulfilling the seals. the OT had the same events.

Revelation 6

King James Version

​

6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Please show from history when these events took place.

also please pay atttentio0n to the verbs and their tenses. by failing to use the verbs in their proper tense, many have fallen into error.

 

[Keraz]

It means being lifted up off the face of the Earth.

Yes, the 'harpazo' in 1 Thess 4:17, is that. Into the clouds of our atmosphere.
But those people who have kept their faith and trust in the Lord and are lifted up to meet and greet Him, when He Returns, will then travel with Jesus to Jerusalem. Where He will rule the world from for the next thousand years. Zechariah 14:16-21

What is the similitude to NOAH’S day, during the First Great Tribulation?

Noah and his family were kept safe in the Ark, During the Great Trib, the faithful Christians will be kept safe in a distant place on earth. Revelation 12:14

Who is this “other”, that is saying….”Rapture to Heaven” ? Cuz, that, Only appears as “your words”.

It is generally accepted that the rapture is to heaven. Off the earth.
I reject that theory, as it contradicts what the Bible does say about our future.

So what makes the new testament wars and famines and plagues fulfilling the seals. the OT had the same events.

Jesus said these things would happen and as the end times approach, they will increase in number and intensity. The labour pangs of the new age. That has been true over the last hundred years.
Today, it is obvious to anyone that we are at the edge of dramatic events. As Bible believers, we should know Gods plans and be prepared to stand firm in our faith thru it all. 1 Peter 4:12

 

[ewq1938]

So then show from history the antichrist riding to war, animals losing their fear of man and eating us, and most of all the events of the sixth seal.

You didn't read the full post or else you wouldn't ask that.

 

[Keraz]

Isaiah 14:27 The Lord has prepared His plan, no one can frustrate it.

Isaiah 14:28-32 An oracle from God: Do not rejoice, all you Philistines, that the rod that struck you is broken, for from the root of the snake will spring up a viper, it will strike with venom of fire. The poor and needy, [righteous Israel] will find pasture, they will dwell in safety. But your offspring I shall destroy by famine and your remnant I shall slay by My sword. Wail at the gate, let all Philistia be stricken with panic, for fire and smoke will come upon you.
What answer shall be given to that nations envoys? It is that the Lord has established Zion and in that Land, His afflicted people will find refuge.

Verses 28-31: Philistia [Palestine] and the entire Middle East region, will be virtually depopulated by fire from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Amos 1:6-8, Amos 2:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Joel 3:4, Zephaniah 1:14-18

Verse 32: New Israel, Beulah- Isaiah 62:1-5, is established; His people living in peace and prosperity. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Jeremiah 46:27, Hosea 14:4-7, Ephesians 2:13-18.

 

[Taken]

Yes, the 'harpazo' in 1 Thess 4:17, is that. Into the clouds of our atmosphere.

Warning…Very Long response. Sharing as if I would speak to you face to face. And yet still just a brief on this subject.

Agree… into the clouds.
“Our” atmosphere…irrelevant.

But those people who have kept their faith and trust in the Lord and are lifted up to meet and greet Him, when He Returns,

“Kept their faith”, is NOT the “converted”.
They ^ are believers, who have not YET given their “LIFE” to God.
His “RETURN” is NOT “a DIRECT journey FROM Heaven TO. Earth”.

The “Lord God Almighty”, has MULTIPLE “names and titles”. (Same as do People on Earth). The Lord God Almighty’s, “name and titles”, gives us knowledge and clues, “under WHICH what Position Name/Title and Authority” He IS to be acknowledged, and acting, and fulfilling.
(Same as do People on Earth.)

* The LORD, Has appeared ON Earth, (Earth, which is called Dry Land), and Called that Land where the LORD was “HOLY”. (Mt.Horeb, Mt. Sinai). (Approx 8,500+ feet upward, which IS in the clouds).

* Point being, Heaven VS Heaven”S”.
Gods ESTATE, Gods Throne, Gods Kingdom IS the Heaven “OF” Heaven(S).
* Gods “Estate”, IS the Highest Portion of Heaven, invisible, UNAPPROACHABLE, by ANY created creature.

First Clue Per Usual knowledge given manKIND, little by little, bit by bit. (Same as man does with babes, children, teens, etc.)

Gen 1: (singular Knowledge)
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1: (division)
[7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
[8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Gen 2: (God creates…AND…makes) which are two different things.)
[4] These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavenS,

God created the Heaven.
God made the Heaven”S”.

Deut 10:
[14] Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

Point being…God IS invisible. And YET, God gives manKIND, “glimpses” of Himself, by, through, of…His Creations, His Makings….that ManKIND CAN SEE and relate to.

 

[Taken]

Cont. (2)
@ Keraz

* We CAN SEE….clouds.
We CAN TRAVEL…into the clouds.
(On a mountain top, IN the clouds, the Air which man requires to live, becomes thin and thinner….)
HOWEVER…a man IN THE CLOUDS, IN his LIVING natural Flesh, IS experiencing a “glimpse” of Heaven.
* The Earth is created manKINDS estate.
* We CAN SEE….the stars. Yet we can not approach the stars. The stars ARE created servant angels (spirit beings) estate.
* We CAN SEE….above and beyond the stars; what scientists have coined; “Black holes”, invisible to SEE where no Light Escapes.

THREE HEAVEN(s) ?
Lower, Clouds manKIND can see, enter ?
Mid, where Stars are?
Highest, where man Can not SEE ?

CLUE:
2 Cor 12:
[2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the . third heaven.

CLUE: (why Lucifer was banished from his “estate” (mid heaven - estate of created angelic spirits)
Isa 14:
[13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
(Side note: scientific discovery of a super-massive black hole, described as “increasing / growing larger)… that information spiritually interesting to me. (scientists trying to give technological theories of explaining it’s presence and creation is of zero interest to me.)

* (JESUS)The WORD, The TRUTH, The LIFE, The WAY of God, was SENT to EARTH…in the LIKENESS “as” a man; IN a body, God PREPARED….was SEEN by manKIND, was HEARD by manKIND, was BELIEVED by “some” of manKIND, was REJECTED by “some” of manKIND (and the scenario of mankind’s believing and rejecting Continues.)

* (CHRIST) WHILE ON Earth…Gods WORD, TRUTH, LIFE…was Revealed…’IS ALSO” the “POWER” of God…Again, some men Believed, Believe, Rejected, Reject.

* A GREAT Tribulation (sent down from Heaven occurred ONCE.). FLOOD. Gods anger, Gods wrath, God INTENT to DIVIDE…
Good and Evil…”manKIND”.
(Fewer Humans occupied the Earth. Fewer Humans to individually ADDRESS, (their standing with or without God) and Shorter “timeframe”.

* A SECOND (and LAST) Tribulation (SHALL BE) sent down from Heaven). The Lord God Almighty’s anger, wrath, INTENT to DIVIDE Good and Evil ….”manKIND”.
(Billions of Humans occupy the Earth, More Humans to individually ADDRESS (their standing “with” or “without” God).

 

[Taken]

Cont. (3)@ Keraz
* WHO specifically to ADDRESS “FIRST”?
* Every individual WHO has Been… MADE WHOLE”
* What is “MADE WHOLE” ?
* Made WHOLE, IS an individual:
WHOSE: BODILY LIFE (called BLOOD),
has been:
“Freely Given IN Death TO God…
or Freely Pledged IN Death TO God.”
“WHOSE SOUL LIFE (called Gods BREATH), has been;
“Restored to Good, and that LIFE to NEVER depart out of that SOUL”.
“WHOSE SPIRIT LIFE (called a man’s TRUTH in his Heart),
has received Gods SEED and become Born Again of God.
Has received Godss Spirit of Truth, and Gods Truth can NEVER depart from that man.

IN “a” phrase, such a man IS CALLED “MADE WHOLE”.
IN “a” phrase, such a man IS CALLED “Converted IN Christ”.

WHEN the Lord God Almighty “DECIDES” TO SEND Down from Heaven “HIS (second And Last) Tribulations UPON the Unrighteous Inhabitants OF the Earth….
The Lord God HAS by, through, of His WORD NOTIFIED manKIND “they” OF manKIND WHO HAVE BECOME MADE “WHOLE”, Shall be “EXCEPTED”, FROM ‘experiencing”, Gods Anger, Gods OWN, Gods ALLOWED, Tribulations and Wrath.

God excepted Noah, his family, from Gods anger, gods FIRST tribulations, wrath, sent from Heaven to Earth; BY, raising Noah and his family UP to the clouds….
AND AGAIN…
God shall except men MADE WHOLE, from Gods anger, LAST tribulations, wrath, BY raising men MADE WHOLE UP to the clouds…

 

[Taken]

Cont (4)
quote @Keraz.

Noah and his family were kept safe in the Ark,

Earth is Dry Land…mankind’s Estate / Habitat.
Water IS NOT Earth.
Regardless of Noah BEING in a Ark…the Ark was RAISED UP ABOVE the face of the Earth.
The Ark was UPON the face of the Water.
The Waters of the FLOOD covered ALL of the Earth, including Mountain peaks.
The Waters of the FLOOD were 15 cubits, above the Mts. (Highest point of land) and the Height of the Ark 30 cubits.
A common cubit about 17 “.
A royal cubit about 20 “.
WE can readily SEE mountains and the high peaks with “CLOUDS”….WHICH ARE the lower Heaven(S).

Noah and his family were LIFTED UP “OFF” the “FACE” of the Earth, UPON “FACE of the WATERS”, (and no doubt, IN the Clouds).

Gen 7:
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

Cont (5)
Quote @Keraz

During the Great Trib, the faithful Christians will be kept safe in a distant place on earth. Revelation 12:14

Disagree.


The FIRST Great Tribulation: (fewer People).
The FIRST Great Tribulation: The ENTIRE EARTH, was DESTROYED, ie. Covered with Water…IN 40 days.


BEFORE the Last Great Tribulation…THE “Converted IN Christ are REMOVED FROM the Face of the EARTH, TO the Clouds of the Lower Heavens”.

* IN a SIMILITUDE, as Noah was being raised UP off the face of the Earth…NOTHING whatsoever, PREVENTED men (other than Noah and his family) FROM CHOOSING to BELIEVE and CONFESS their Belief….Yet no account reveals any other men DID so.)

* DURING the Last Great Tribulation…
Billions of manKIND have and do occupy the Earth.
* Forty days Again to DESTROY the EARTH?
No.
* A SERIES of THREE “sets” of Events..
Called…judgements…
Called…Seals, Trumps, Bowls/Vials
* Each of the Three “sets” have SEVEN individual “aspects”.
Called 7 Seals, 7 Trumps, 7 Bowls/Vials
* Each of the 7+7+7= 21. “aspects”…
WHICH is NOTICE of “INCREASED” tribulation judgements OF God “UPON the face of the Earth”, which SHALL effect THOSE of manKIND who ARE “upon the face of the Earth”.

* BEFORE, DURING, AFTER…The Last Great tribulation sent down from God in Heaven…
MEN upon the face of the Earth…
ARE being bodily KILLED upon the Earth.
ARE becoming soul saved, spirit quickened, and bodily killed upon the face of the Earth.
SOME ARE becoming, bodily dead upon the face of the Earth, (without being soul saved or spirit quickened).

* ^ Completing…the SEALS, the TRUMPS…

 

[Taken]

Cont (6)

* THEN…The “DIVIDING” of men ON EARTH…WITH God and AGAINST God.

*DIVIDED HOW?
Reaped, separated. (Rev. 14:14)
*DIVIDED BY WHOM? (Son of Man, His position, ON a White Cloud.)

THEN…the Bowls/Vials poured out upon men AGAINST God, their body’s killed, opportunity for soul salvation / spirit quickening…PASSED.

THEN…Is the Earthly Kingdom of God…claimed ON EARTH, by Christ Jesus….
* WHERE is Christ’s Kingdom?
Same lands / borders, Promised to Abraham.
* WHO is IN Christ’s Kingdom?
Christ the Lord Jesus, All men who were MADE WHOLE, “before” the Last tribulation began.
* WHO is IN the smaller man-governed kingdoms? All living men who, during the tribulation Became MADE “WHOLE”, but did NOT bodily die (remained alive living mortal believers). They mortally live, marry, reproduce offspring, build cities, build nations, have peace between their nations, die, generationally for 1,000 years.)

THE:
* 1,000 YEARS of ONE supreme God Ruled Government and Kingdom and Numerous smaller human man- governed kingdoms;
WITHOUT the presence OF EVIL fallen angel spirits.

THEN…at the ending of 1,000 years:
* Release OF EVIL fallen angel spirits upon the Earth.
* Their Influence AGAIN over human men upon the face of the earth …
Begins and Quickly ENDS…
The LAST conflict of created mortal manKIND against GOD…and the ENDING forever of the existence of created mortal manKIND of beings.
AS WELL…beginning and Quick ending OF the existence “upon the face of the earth”, OF fallen Angels Against God.
( A battle in the air, between holy and fallen angels.)
AFTER…1,000 years reign ——>
New Heaven, New Earth ——>
* The “firmament” (water/clouds) that DIVIDE/separate “high heavens and earth” OPENED, and as it is IN Heaven, SO ALSO shall be ON Earth.

Cont (7)
Quote Kerez

It is generally accepted that the rapture is to heaven. Off the earth.

Yes. That IS a GENERAL acceptance.
However the SPECIFIC understanding is NOT General Knowledge NOR General Understanding.

I reject that theory, as it contradicts what the Bible does say about our future.

You call that “general acceptance” A theory.
You then “reject” what you call A theory, and you give a “general” reasoning.

I expressly DO Accept, “specific men” WHO HAVE become “MADE” WHOLE, (body, soul, spirit), by, through, of the OFFERING of God, His Word of Offering a NEW, BETTER TESTAMENT, for a man TO BECOME “accounted”….according to God, “WHOLE”….BEFORE “physically” giving His own LIFE (BLOOD/ BODY), unto “physical” DEATH…(via Crucifixion WITH Christ Jesus’ BODY)….and thus Having Received, the Salvation of his soul, and the Quickening (born again) of his spirit….THESE such men, EXPRESSLY ARE called….Christ’s CHURCH members….
* THEY ARE the “EXPRESS” and “ONLY” individuals “EXCEPTED” from suffering ANY wrath, during ANY portion of the LAST Tribulation of God, sent down to Earth.
* THEY are NOT waiting or hoping to Become MADE WHOLE, and wholly Acceptable unto God. THEY ARE MADE WHOLE. THEY ARE Claimed BY the Lord, (who is called their Groom, and they called His Church, His Bride).
* In the SAME tradition, God established for a JEWISH MARRIAGE…A servant of the Groom, Calls on the Bride, who has made herself ready and waiting for “that” call, to immediately GO to her Groom, to the Grooms Father’s House, where the Groom is waiting…and the Bride and Groom….(with the blessing of the Grooms Father….) Become JOINED, wedded, FOREVER and to NEVER be separated.

BEFORE the Last Tribulation Begins…(which DOES BEGIN WITH WRATH)…

Wrath OF the Lamb…Seal opening, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6: 16-17) (recognized by men ON EARTH, His Wrath IS come down to the face of the Earth.)

ALL of manKIND who HAS been MADE WHOLE, ARE “EXCEPTED” FROM WRATH, ARE called UP (by their Lords Servant) ARE called UP to their Groom, their Lord who descends FROM Heaven TO the Clouds (not Earth),

1 thes 5:
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The Lord, from Heaven to the Clouds.
Those IN Jesus ready when called.
Those IN Christ ready when called.
Archangel (servant of the Lord) calls/summons the Ready.
The Ready (bride/church), meet their Lord (groom) IN the clouds of the Lords’ Father’s House.
Forever they are joined and remain forever together, where one is, so also is the other.

1 Thes 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Taken]

Cont (8)
Quote @Keraz

Jesus said these things would happen and as the end times approach, they will increase in number and intensity. The labour pangs of the new age. That has been true over the last hundred years.

Satan since Before manKIND was created, has been banished from His First Estate (mid Heaven), TO Earth, and has been BUSY for the past 6,000 years, of seducing and convincing men to Reject God. With some men Satan has succeeded, With other men WHO ARE made WHOLE (body, soul, spirit), Satan has failed, and God has succeeded.

No man who “IS” made WHOLE, is subject to Gods end of days WRATH…
Not the WRATH of the Lamb (during the Seals), Not the WRATH of the Devil (during the Seals and Trumps), Not the WRATH of God (during the bowls/vials).

Seriously…why WOULD the Lord God…be ANGRY, be WRATHFUL Against men HE has made WHOLE, and cause such men to be SUBJECT to…Gods Wrath He expressly sends down UPON the Earth?
* Hasn’t EVERY individual man upon the face of the earth, during his (era) Life-time upon the earth, Constantly been “subjected to”…
Tribulations, hardships, underhandedness, lying, cheating, oppressions, deceiving, wars, killings, fears, CAUSED…BY Fallen Angels AND Human men? Uh…ya! AND A FEW…having suffered through those Tribulations…WHILE NEVER abandoning their FAITH and their STANDING with God…
“Gods promise to THEM, if they be ALIVE upon the face of the earth WHEN God Himself sends wrath upon the earth”…?
THOSE, who ARE “MADE WHOLE”…shall NOT suffer Wrath sent down from Heaven!

“Yes”, Many people have a “GENERAL” perspective of HEAVEN…YET if you read and discover…there ARE Heaven(S), and human men HAVE and DO routinely go into the Lower Heavens. And while human men ARE IN the Lower Heavens, it is for but a short while, AND “IF” such men “ARE” IN tHE CLOUD of the Lower Heavens…
they “ARE” invisible to men “ON” Earth.

I believe the “RAPTURE” is AN Express term of LIFTING UP off the face of the Earth, BEFORE Gods Tribulation sent down from Heaven….Expressly and ONLY Applicable to Human men WHO HAVE BECOME MADE WHOLE (body, soul, spirit)…WHILE THE rest of the WORLD, (who has NOT been made WHOLE)…IS last minute Deciding, while experiencing…Great Wrath, and Tribulations.

Today, it is obvious to anyone that we are at the edge of dramatic events. As Bible believers, we should know Gods plans and be prepared to stand firm in our faith thru it all. 1 Peter 4:12

I believe “EVERY” generation of manKIND who has ever occupied the face of the Earth, have experienced tribulations and hardships and “to some degree” Prophecy unfolding.

Agree, to your term “increasing” and would say, as the Earth’s population has increased exponentially (BILLIONS), so ALSO has Prophetic fulfillment, exponentially been unfolding.

“I believe”, we, IN the world, are “NEARING” the day of the Rapture…
AND those, OF the world, are “NEARING” Days of “the Lambs Wrath” and “days of Woes”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[rebuilder 454]

Rapture is simply a term that means “caught up”….


The Rapture, “catching up” to the clouds…above the face of the earth…IS Specific, NOT General.

The Rapture “specifically” applies to:
Any person who has BECOME “converted’ IN Christ.

A Person “specifically” IS a BODY and embodied SOUL, with a spirit.

A Converted Person IS a Body, WHO heartfully Believes in the Lord God “AND” has heartfully CONFESSED their belief.

A Converted Person is NOT appointed to suffer Wrath.

The First. Great Tribulation of the World, was Orchestrated, by God In Heaven, Because of His Wrath and Sent Down upon the face of the Earth, to Destroy the inhabitants upon the face of Earth.

Eight embodied souls (ie persons) ESCAPED, destruction upon the face of the earth, by being Lifted UP above the face of the earth.

The Second (and Last Great Tribulation of the World), SHALL Be Orchestrated by the Lord God IN Heaven, Again Because of His Wrath, and such Great Tribulations upon the face of the earth, SHALL (negatively) Affect, ALL persons upon the face of the earth, who are NOT “converted IN. Christ Jesus”…
Believers, non-believers, Jews, Gentiles…they have NO ESCAPE …

WHO DOES the catching up / Rapture APPLY to: THOSE who are NOT appointed to WRATH.
WHO is NOT appoint to WRATH? Those WHO HAVE obtain-ED salvation.

1 Thes 5:
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

What is a man WHO HAS obtained salvation Called? CONVERTED IN Christ.

What is the similitude to NOAH’S day, during the First Great Tribulation?

1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matt 24:
[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark…

Where did Noah GO once he and his family entered the ark?

Gen 7:
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

How HIGH above the FACE of The Earth did the ark carrying Noah and his family go?

Gen 7:
[19] And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
[20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

What IS Earth? Dry Land (Gen 1:10)

What IS in the Air Above the Mt. Tops?
Clouds.

Matt 24:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Rom 1:
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Doesn’t matter IF you do not read, hear, learn, or understand….
The Lord God IS neither Angry or sending His Wrath and Tribulations from Heaven UPON men who HAVE Become Cleansed of Unrighteousness and Converted IN Christ.

Glory to God,
Taken

Bingo
Somebody that has actually read the bible

 

[rebuilder 454]

Warning…Very Long response. Sharing as if I would speak to you face to face. And yet still just a brief on this subject.

Agree… into the clouds.
“Our” atmosphere…irrelevant.



“Kept their faith”, is NOT the “converted”.
They ^ are believers, who have not YET given their “LIFE” to God.
His “RETURN” is NOT “a DIRECT journey FROM Heaven TO. Earth”.

The “Lord God Almighty”, has MULTIPLE “names and titles”. (Same as do People on Earth). The Lord God Almighty’s, “name and titles”, gives us knowledge and clues, “under WHICH what Position Name/Title and Authority” He IS to be acknowledged, and acting, and fulfilling.
(Same as do People on Earth.)

* The LORD, Has appeared ON Earth, (Earth, which is called Dry Land), and Called that Land where the LORD was “HOLY”. (Mt.Horeb, Mt. Sinai). (Approx 8,500+ feet upward, which IS in the clouds).

* Point being, Heaven VS Heaven”S”.
Gods ESTATE, Gods Throne, Gods Kingdom IS the Heaven “OF” Heaven(S).
* Gods “Estate”, IS the Highest Portion of Heaven, invisible, UNAPPROACHABLE, by ANY created creature.

First Clue Per Usual knowledge given manKIND, little by little, bit by bit. (Same as man does with babes, children, teens, etc.)

Gen 1: (singular Knowledge)
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1: (division)
[7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
[8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Gen 2: (God creates…AND…makes) which are two different things.)
[4] These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavenS,

God created the Heaven.
God made the Heaven”S”.

Deut 10:
[14] Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

Point being…God IS invisible. And YET, God gives manKIND, “glimpses” of Himself, by, through, of…His Creations, His Makings….that ManKIND CAN SEE and relate to.

I wonder if the dude you are addressing thinks that when the disciples saw Jesus ascending into the sky, that he is still in the sky????
Or Elijah
Or Enoch
Or the 2 witnesses??????