The Bible doesn't instruct to pray to Jesus
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Wrangler
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Why discuss which way is South with someone who doesn’t believe Miami is north of Boston?
Why would it mean that? Did Jesus really give the disciples 10-15 minutes to ask things of him and he would do them? Did he then just change his mind? Or could it be that we can ask things of both him and the Father?
Of course it isn’t. Is Jesus the same as Elisha?
You’re ignoring some context. As I stated, Jesus told the disciples to ask things of him and he would do them within the context of believing in him. More than that, the context includes Jesus returning to the Father. Is salvation found in anyone else? Does anyone else say that it is necessary to believe in them for salvation? It seems pretty clear that it all depends on who Jesus is, not in merely asking.
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Anything, any excuse, to rob Jesus from His divinity.
Wrangler
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Anything, any excuse to rob those who advance lies as the truth. Why can’t the dust settle on the simple fact presented in the OP - that there is no verse instructing us to pray to Jesus?
There is no verse that says Jesus instructed us to brush our teeth 2x each day. It has nothing to do with his divinity. That is, unless you are connecting these things.
P1. Jesus is God.
P2. No verse instructs us to pray to Jesus.
C. ?
The common denominator is that we both believe in the Bible, I think. Regardless of whatever you or I believe, we are both reading the same book. You can still discuss praying because the Bible talks about praying, you and I believe in praying, and from the text therein we can draw out what it really says.
There is no instruction (for believers, for Christians, the church) to worship Jesus. I have not moved the goal posts. I am clarifying what I meant.
Interestingly, there are variant manuscripts regarding the John 14:14 version you used. There is a version that says "if you ask me for anything" and there is a version that says "if you ask for anything." Now, I will say that the earliest surviving manuscripts include "me" but the fact that this is one of those verses where someone either added or removed a word from the original manuscript is suspicious. I find it out of step with Jesus' other teachings where he said to ask the Father instead (John 15:16, John 16:23, John 16:26) and to pray to the Father (Matthew 6:6,9) and everyone else in the New Testament saying ask the Father (Ephesians 3:14-16, Ephesians 5:20, Colossians 1:3, Colossians 3:17)
Then out of the blue, one contested verse with a manuscript variant, that says "Ask me" in John 14:14 appears. Unlikely to be an original, especially with the existence of John 16:23 where Jesus said "ask me nothing, ask the Father."
But let's assume for the sake of discussion that John 14:14 is the original and says "Ask me for anything." That's fine. The context is just while they were still there in Israel. Jesus often would take the disciples requests and prayers and ask his God and Father for things on their behalf. Jesus is the kind of guy you want praying for you. His prayers are gonna get heard and answered. It doesn't override the only instruction to pray to the Father... unless you believe Jesus is the Father?
No, but they said similar things.
Jesus' status Lord of the church and savior, the messiah, are separate from that. Let's say Jesus told his disciples to ask him for things? Why did Jesus later turn and say "Don't ask me for anything, ask the Father" in John 16:23?
amigo de christo
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You must be kidding me right .
And let all the host of o heaven worship him .
That verse alone , the night JESUS was born and later the writers of hebrews would say it ,
Would have proved you dead dead wrong .
You might wanna also read the book of revelation .
CAUSE I DARN SURE SEE LOTS OF WORSHIP of GOD and THE LAMB .
Someone is a lying to you my friend .
That at the NAME of JESUS every KNEE SHOULD BOW .
THAT SOUND LIKE WORSHIP TO ME bud .
We can do this all day . The scrips prove YOU dead wrong .
TIME to believe what is written .
Lets start with
AND IN the Beginning was THE WORD and the Word was with GOD and the Word was God .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Did you see what that man wrote
There is NO instruction to worship Christ .
WOW .
Watch and behold this my friend .
And let all the angels the host of heaven WORSHIP HIM .
And that at the NAME OF JESUS every KNEE should bow of things in heaven , things on earth .
THAT , my friend , SOUNDS LIKE WORSHIP TO ME . JUST that alone .
OH but there is much much more that is written , as well as in REVELATION
I seen lots of worship of GOD and THE LAMB . someone lied to that other man big time .
Guess he needs to also take his cue from the man who once doubted
the very ressurection of JESUS and had said , LEST I SEE HIM , touch his hands , put my hands into his side
i will not Beleive .
THEN , say about eight days later , JESUS DID appear to that man
AND I SURE seem to remember him falling to his knees saying a certain phrase ,
MY LORD and MY GOD . someone lied to that man my friend . SOMEONE is taking THE GLORY AWAY
from GOD , JESUS IS THE GLORY OF GOD . He who honors NOT the SON honors NOT the FATHER .
That isn't what I said, but it seems that is what you think or feel. Don't shut those thoughts out or ignore them. Let's see who Jesus really is and honor him for the ways the Bible presents him. You seem to show awareness that Jesus saying "In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you" has some implications about who Jesus is. What do you think?
Hi, I read your comment and I would like to add that when you discover the verse that instructs the church to worship Jesus, please let me know. Let's just make sure that its non-existence stays in the foreground of our thoughts while we look at the rest of what you said.
Firstly, the writer of Hebrews saying "And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all God’s angels worship Him.” Is contextual to the birth of Jesus and angels, not in regards to the church.
I have also read the book of Revelation, Jesus was not worshipped there one time. Please show me where you think he was worshipped.
Philippians 2:10-11 says "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." So I have a question for you. Does it say "at the name of Jesus" every knee should bow or "to Jesus" every knee should bow? Why does only God the Father get glory with no mention of Jesus getting any glory there?
amigo de christo
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You asked the right question but with the total wrong understanding .
You asked WHY does only God the Father get glory with no mention of JESUS getting any glory .
Oh my my my , has it not been said and has it not been told , WHO IS THE GLORY OF GOD . WHY JESUS IS OF COURSE .
And HE who honors the SON , HONORS THE FATHER . FATHER GLORIFY THY NAME . I have both GLORIFIED IT
and shall GLORIFY IT AGAIN . I have made MANFIEST YOUR NAME . AND WHO did GOD GLORIFY
and WHO was GLORIFIED when ROSE AGAIN . I have the power to lay down my life and I have THE POWER to raise
it up again . Someone been lied too , and that someone IS YOU and BY YOU , by your own mind .
Its kinda like a man saying WHEN it speaks of THE SPIRIT , it dont say GOD , it dont say Christ .
AND YET IT DO . as even paul knew when HE said the SPIRIT OF GOD , the SPIRIT of CHRIST that is in you .
Surely you dont think those are two different spirits , or perhaps you ignorant enough
to beleive we have three GODS , or maybe just maybe ...............forget it this list can get way too long .
but know this , YOU SEEM to love a lie . which of course will always contain partial truths
but will use such to promote a lie , rather than TO GIVE THE T RUTH . And i only know one
that uses t ruths but does so in order to promote a lie . AND BELIEVE YOU ME , not a one of us
wants to follow that one or make that one our God .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
funny , you say context , but what you should be saying is , WE GOTTA READ IT
as your t eacher , or your doct rine says it should mean .
NOW THIS many do . OH and often they do this too .
When a man so desires to beleive something he will make it say whatever he believed and wanted it to say .
AND MANY DO THAT .
But as for the sheep , they do not seek a truth that aims to promote a lie .
They dont read the bible through the lens of men , of scholars , of etc as they remold it into
MANS DOCTRINE .
Oh no no no . THEY SIMPLY READ and LOVE THE TRUTH , FOR GOD has put such a love into their hearts .
AND THAT LOVE dont seek to please the flesh , but to PLEASE GOD .
Again you REALLY NEED to go and learn what that means . And if f rom a repentant heart
you shall pray and into the BIBLE you shall go , WITHOUT mens doctrines and deonmiational influences or acryomns ,
BUT JUST READ IT FOR YOU . YOU had learned well . if not prepare to wail .
BreadOfLife
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YOUR opening line is a prayer to all of US:
“What is an instruction?“
Definition of the word “PRAY”:
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
Acts 27:34 - KJV
"Wherefore I PRAY you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not a hair fall from the head of any of you".
As shown above – the intransitive verb use of the word “Pray” is to GOD.
Paul prayed to the Son (Jesus):
2 Cor. 12:8-9
Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
The Father is GOD.
The Sone is GOD.
The Holy Spirit is GOD.
God says:
Rev. 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the LORD GOD, "the one who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty".
The Son says:
Rev. 22:13
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end".
(This claim of “Alpha and the Omega” is attributed to the Lord God in Rev. 1:8).
YOUR problem is that you are not a student of Scripture as much as you are a cherry-picker of it.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit, which proceeds from BOTH the Father AND (Rev. 1:8) the Son (Rev. 22:13) (John 16:7, Gal. 4:6) are GOD – every bit as much as the Father is GOD . . .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
prime example . as if me asking a muslim for a glass of water is praying to him .
THE RCC got folks duped .
THE RCC got folks duped .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
all the RCC did was take examples o what one does DURING prayer to GOD
then use such examples to justify why they pray to saints , to mary and etc
and act like ITS not abomination to do such a thing .
Anyone can do that .
but true prayer is worship . asking a liv ing person for a request is not even the same as praying to them .
Praying to someone or something OTHER than GOD is abomiantion , is an act of worship .
then use such examples to justify why they pray to saints , to mary and etc
and act like ITS not abomination to do such a thing .
Anyone can do that .
but true prayer is worship . asking a liv ing person for a request is not even the same as praying to them .
Praying to someone or something OTHER than GOD is abomiantion , is an act of worship .
In this usage you are referring to from Meriam-Webster, pray is essentially equivalent to "please", "I beg you," or "I entreat you," but it does not refer to an act of religious prayer. That kind of talking, i.e., "I pray you...", "Pray be careful...", "Pray tell me..." etc is not the kind of "pray" we're talking about here. Thanks for the reply, please let me know if you find any examples of praying to Jesus in the Bible.
I have seen very few people engage the actual argument in this thread, which is fine, but mainly it's been denials, changing the subject, redefining terms, appealing to mystery, quoting unrelated verses, ad hominem, etc.
So let's bring this back to engaging the actual argument. Do you believe there is anything that instructs people to pray to Jesus in the Bible? If so, let's go through them and see.
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