The Bible supports reincarnation

[Aunty Jane]

You're introducing words, that aren't there.

A messenger would prepare the way for the Messiah....this is what the Bible foretold.
Malachi said that someone would come before the Messiah to prepare the way for him. He would help people to be ready to accept the Messiah when he appeared. Malachi calls him Elijah the prophet. (Malachi 4:5-6)

Jesus said that John the Baptist was the one who was like Elijah. (Matthew 11:12-14)
Mark said that John prepared the way. This is exactly what Isaiah had prophesied. (Isaiah 40:3; Mark 1:1-4) Jesus did not tell John to prepare the way for him. God wanted people to know who the Messiah was. So it was God who chose John to do a work that was like the work of Elijah and prepare the people to welcome the Messiah.

What I said, hung on the simplicity of the Holy Spirit.

Some things are simple......others are not. You are reading into scripture concepts that are not there.

 

[Gottservant]

A messenger would prepare the way for the Messiah....this is what the Bible foretold.
[...]

Some things are simple......others are not. You are reading into scripture concepts that are not there.

Jesus said "John the Baptist was Elijah", it can't be plainer.

 

[Davy]

Let me just say first, that this and all passages of scripture cannot be defined by their literary meaning.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus said "John the Baptist was Elijah", it can't be plainer.

It is perfectly plain when you understand Jewish belief about life after death......they had no belief in an afterlife of the kind that the pagans believed. The first lie told in Eden was that “you surely will not die” when God said that they would.

The devil could not substantiate his lie, so he promoted the belief that life continues....elsewhere in an invisible realm. Humans were not programmed for death, so they swallowed this lie too. There is no belief in an afterlife from the scriptures. Adam died and returned to the dust, just as God said he would. Elijah died and was buried like all other humans. All of God’s servants believed in the resurrection.

God says we all return to the dust because there is no immortal soul to go anywhere. A resurrection is a return to life....not a continuation of it somewhere else. Jesus would not have promoted the devil’s deceptions. Even as the son of God, he knew that he was destined for death, and he needed to be resurrected too. He had faith that his Father would not leave his lifeless body in the tomb....his resurrection was assured and God would give him a new body in order to return to heaven where he was always his Father’s “right hand” man.

What is plain, is that humans want to believe that they do not die, so satan provides them with the means to go on living.....in imaginary spirit form.....and yet the Bible does not teach this.....the concept is unprovable, but the demons can provide all the “proof” people need by the services of spirit mediums......those whom God evicted from the land of Canaan when the Israelites entered the Promised Land. His laws reflected his complete abhorrence for those who want to communicate with “the dead”. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

Jesus is the one who will resurrect the dead. He will call them from their graves, because they are all still in them. (John 5:28-29) The elect will be resurrected first to take their place in the heavenly kingdom so that they can perform the duties that God called them to do......to become the rulers and priests with Christ, so that mankind will become reconciled to God under their care and direction. (Revelation 20:6)

Jesus did not promote the idea of an immortal soul at any time, because it was never part of Jewish scripture....it was a satanic lie.

 

[Mr E]

What does that mean to you.....explain what being "born again" actually means to a Christian....Nicodemus was puzzled by the expression and so I suspect are a lot of other people.
Please give us your definition....

Yes, Nicodemus was puzzled and yes-- lots of people are as well. There are many who must think that Jesus "winked" when he said it, or like @Adam suggests, the statement Jesus made must be interpreted as metaphor. The text itself goes in a different direction altogether, and taken with the whole of things Jesus taught it becomes clear that he meant what he said.

I'm not confused by it and neither was Jesus. I don't need to define what 'born again' means, because I accept the definition Jesus offered.

Let's look quickly first at what it doesn't mean. -It doesn't mean what Nicodemus thought it might. It doesn't mean 'a man entering his mother's womb a second time to then be born again.' When he asked Jesus if that's what it means, he prefaced his thoughts with another question-- "How can a man be born when he is old?"

Jesus said-- I tell you the truth-- (verily, verily) -Unless a man is born of water (woman, mother/earthly) and of the Spirit (God, the Father/heavenly) he cannot enter the kingdom of God. The two ideas go together, but speak about two different things.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The one, you can understand. It's natural birth. A baby forms in the womb, a watery world until the mother's water breaks and the child bursts forth from the only environment it has any understanding of, to a whole new world it has little or no awareness of apart from a sense or imagination of something- more. That which is born of flesh, is flesh. This is natural, physical birth. He sets the two concepts apart.

The other, you cannot comprehend. That which is born of the Spirit, is spirit. This birth you have no direct knowledge of. It's like Cotton-eyed Joe. It's like the wind. That's his definition. Could he have explained it better? More fully? Sure. He could have jumped the shark right there, but chose not to. Instead, when Nicodemus asked "How can this be?" -he took a pass and said --

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


In other words--(to Nicodemus) --Dude... if you don't understand how babies are born (earthly things) you are not going to understand heavenly concepts.

 

[ScottA]

Funnily enough, I think that this phrase, though very widely known, is too open to metaphorical interpretation to be used as proof of my claims.


There is a punishment prescribed by God for the original sin:

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

And people do work for their bread (especially if bread is used metaphorically for the word of God), so this is something that can be said to apply to all mankind.

The disciples, as religious devotees, surely would have known this and therefore the question implies that blindness is an additional curse caused by some other sin.

The question they ask is, is the man being punished for himself, or were his parents being punished to have a blind son. There is no reference to Adam and Eve here or some universal human condition.

Jesus' answer was not to be unsympathetic and assume he deserved his fate, but that in fact his curse had a higher purpose, but it is the question itself and the context of it that hints at the underlying belief systems.

You're guessing.

 

[ScottA]

1 Corinthians 2:14​

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, Nicodemus was puzzled and yes-- lots of people are as well. There are many who must think that Jesus "winked" when he said it, or like @Adam suggests, the statement Jesus made must be interpreted as metaphor. The text itself goes in a different direction altogether, and taken with the whole of things Jesus taught it becomes clear that he meant what he said.

I'm not confused by it and neither was Jesus. I don't need to define what 'born again' means, because I accept the definition Jesus offered.

Let's look quickly first at what it doesn't mean. -It doesn't mean what Nicodemus thought it might. It doesn't mean 'a man entering his mother's womb a second time to then be born again.' When he asked Jesus if that's what it means, he prefaced his thoughts with another question-- "How can a man be born when he is old?"

Jesus said-- I tell you the truth-- (verily, verily) -Unless a man is born of water (woman, mother/earthly) and of the Spirit (God, the Father/heavenly) he cannot enter the kingdom of God. The two ideas go together, but speak about two different things.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The one, you can understand. It's natural birth. A baby forms in the womb, a watery world until the mother's water breaks and the child bursts forth from the only environment it has any understanding of, to a whole new world it has little or no awareness of apart from a sense or imagination of something- more. That which is born of flesh, is flesh. This is natural, physical birth. He sets the two concepts apart.

The other, you cannot comprehend. That which is born of the Spirit, is spirit. This birth you have no direct knowledge of. It's like Cotton-eyed Joe. It's like the wind. That's his definition. Could he have explained it better? More fully? Sure. He could have jumped the shark right there, but chose not to. Instead, when Nicodemus asked "How can this be?" -he took a pass and said --

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


In other words--(to Nicodemus) --Dude... if you don't understand how babies are born (earthly things) you are not going to understand heavenly concepts.

Thank you for your explanation....I am sure there are many here who would agree with you.

Being “born of water and spirit” has a different connotation to JW’s however.
Every human is born in the same manner, out of the womb of a woman......but since few are “chosen” to rule with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom, two things are necessary in order for that to take place.

We believe that the “water” here is the water of baptism.....something that Jesus himself had to undergo. It was the beginning of his dedicated mission, that once started, would not be reversed, even though the devil tried to derail his mission at the very beginning, he was unsuccessful. Jesus was steadfast in his course.

The water of baptism itself is a symbolic death and resurrection......dying to one’s former course, buried under the water, and being raised to do the will of God from that day forward. It is a conscious decision that can only be made by a competent adult in full knowledge of what it means for the rest of one’s life. It is a vow to God made publicly so that one is conscious of the fact that others will observe their conduct as well as the one to whom the dedication was made. So water baptism is the first step on the road to life for all Christians.

So how does one become part of an exclusive group that the Bible calls Christ’s “elect” or his “chosen ones” or “saints”? Who chooses them and what does their choosing mean?

We know what definition some in Christendom place on the word “saint” but is that correct?
What is a “saint” exactly?

Paul wrote to the Corinthians saying.....
“1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor 1:1-3 KJV)

Paul here speaks about his “calling”, which he mentions with regard to to his mission as an “apostle” as well as his “calling” to be among others who are called “saints”.

In Hebrews 3:1-2 Paul says....
“Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.” (KJV)

So again we see this “calling” or invitation from God for some (chosen ones) to fulfill a specific role in the outworking of his purpose.
Christ himself is High Priest and an Apostle. So the role of king/priest is assigned only to the elect, who will be under the direction of their High Priest Jesus Christ.

But Paul also mentions those who are “with” those ones, and Jesus Christ is “Lord” of both groups.

What role do “saints” play in heaven? Revelation 20:6 answers....
“6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” (KJV)

So these are “called” to be “priests” as well as ‘rulers’ with Christ in his Kingdom....these it says, are part of “the first resurrection”....which means that these ones will now take on immortality, not subject to Gehenna or “the second death”. They are resurrected before anyone else so that when the Kingdom “comes” to take over earth's rulership, (Daniel 2:44) these will all be in their positions, ready to take over rulership of the earth under Christ’s direction.
They will reign with Jesus for a thousand years.....which will return redeemed mankind back into reconciliation with the God whom their forebears abandoned at the very beginning of man’s history. (Isaiah 55:11) God’s original purpose will be restored....and the barrier of sin will be removed.

So to us, the “saints” or the “elect” will die, and be resurrected to a new life in heaven in a new spirit body designed to exist there in the presence of God. This is what we believe is being “born again” means.....those who like Jesus, “die in the flesh but made alive in the spirit”. (1 Peter 3:18) Those “baptized into Christ” are therefore “baptized into his death”. They die "faithful to their death" and will receive "the crown of life"....immortal spirit life in heaven. But for the majority of mankind, the earth was always going to be their permanent home. God’s kingdom, under the best rulership man could ever have, will bring the human race back to the way it was all meant to be at the beginning.

Revelation 21:2-5 will see its fulfilment.....
"2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

This is not only scriptural, but also logical......it answers the question of why God permits suffering.....this way humans are given opportunity to answer all the challenges that satan raised in Eden, concerning God’s rightful Sovereignty over the earth. We can stand firm against the devil like Jesus did....and like Adam and his wife should have.....even in our sinful imperfection, we can prove that the devil is a pathetic god, and a bold faced liar.

That is how we see the situation....

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Good article on Biblically-supported reincarnation here, though I came to the same conclusion separately:

May a Christian Believe in Reincarnation?

This brief study of reincarnation will be to determine if in good conscience a Christian may believe in reincarnation. You will be surprised!

ocoy.org

Many Bible quotes can be found within that support this concept. I won't spam the page up by listing them all redundantly when the article does a nice enough job. Here is one quote I feel is particularly ironclad:

Genesis 9:6
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

This would not be possible without reincarnation. As you know, many murderers are imprisoned or evade capture and die of natural causes.

The common counterargument to Christian reincarnation is the idea of an eternal hell which is countered here:

Tobit 13:2
“For he doth scourge, and hath mercy: he leadeth down to hell, and bringeth up again: neither is there any that can avoid his hand.”

How can one come out of hell without another chance at life?

On moral grounds, I would reject the concept of eternal hell, as an all-loving God would not create a being to suffer for all eternity. In fact, the Bible says that God will go through great lengths to save everyone, not stopping until He has succeeded.

Luke chapter 15 KJV (King James Version)

Luke chapter 15 KJV (King James Version)

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Furthermore, the idea of a loving God throwing sinners into eternal hell isn't just either - it is a cop-out. If you have an argument with someone, you can't win the argument by silencing them, only by proving them wrong. Evil can't be defeated with violence, only by turning evil to good can it be defeated in a moral sense. Hence, turn the other cheek. The question of good and evil, I would go so far as to say, is the fundamental question of our universe. It is one of the first things written about in the Bible, in Genesis chapter 3. So did God create evil just to lock it away? Or is there in fact a higher purpose to it? My personal theory is that your soul retains memory of its past suffering, and after experiencing evil, becomes more compassionate. Across the cycles, a soul gradually rises in consciousness from a base and evil state to a good and holy state, through toiling and suffering.

Now here is where I am about to get really unorthodox: human souls can transmigrate into animal souls. This is why the Hebrews sacrificed lambs and goats. A Jew repents for his sins by killing HIMSELF in his next life. A penance cycle as a lamb destined for slaughter. Therefore, the spiritual timeline of the world is not the same as the material timeline. A soul can be born to live concurrently with its previous or subsequent incarnation.

Now, how can Jesus atone for the collective sins of all mankind? There is only one possible explanation. Jesus is the Son of Man. The spiritual son, IE. the reincarnation of Man. The sum total of all human incarnations with a fully awakened soul memory.

Matthew 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Or in other words: all life in our universe really only has a single soul, which is inferior to God, but is in the process of purifying itself to return to God.

Philosophers have often grappled with the quesion: how can a loving God create a universe filled with so much evil? Well the answer to this is clear: it's a moral lesson. We think there is good and evil but we've really just been screwing ourselves over for thousands of years. Everything we do meets with exact justice because we suffer at our own hands and learn from it.

So whose moral education was this universe created for? The book of Job has the answer.

Job 1
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Hebrews 9:27
The Bible teaches one life, one death and then the judgment. Jesus said however if you believe in him even though you shall physically die, your spirit will live eternally.
We get one shot to reconcile with God. There is no endless cycle, not even another physical life. Elijah and Enoch were the only ones so far that did not suffer a physical death, they were taken up. "It is appointed for men to die once", so does that require Elijah and Enoch to come back and die? They might be the Two Witnesses who return during the Grea Tribulation?
1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thes. 5:16, 17 speak of the resurrection of the dead and also those living during the time of the Great Tribulation, at the Last Trumpet (#7). The dead bodies of Christians will be resurrected and joined with their spirits in heaven. Christians living on earth at that time will be translated.
Dead unbelievers from the beginning are in Hades, awaiting their final judgment, which is to also be resurrected only to be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Hell) and destroyed.

1 physical life, 1 soul/ spirit

Options: death of both body and soul/spirit
or
death of body, new eternal soul/spiritual life given

 

[Mr E]

Thank you for your explanation....I am sure there are many here who would agree with you.

Being “born of water and spirit” has a different connotation to JW’s however.
Every human is born in the same manner, out of the womb of a woman......but since few are “chosen” to rule with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom, two things are necessary in order for that to take place.

We believe that the “water” here is the water of baptism.....something that Jesus himself had to undergo. It was the beginning of his dedicated mission, that once started, would not be reversed, even though the devil tried to derail his mission at the very beginning, he was unsuccessful. Jesus was steadfast in his course.

The water of baptism itself is a symbolic death and resurrection......dying to one’s former course, buried under the water, and being raised to do the will of God from that day forward. It is a conscious decision that can only be made by a competent adult in full knowledge of what it means for the rest of one’s life. It is a vow to God made publicly so that one is conscious of the fact that others will observe their conduct as well as the one to whom the dedication was made. So water baptism is the first step on the road to life for all Christians.

So how does one become part of an exclusive group that the Bible calls Christ’s “elect” or his “chosen ones” or “saints”? Who chooses them and what does their choosing mean?

We know what definition some in Christendom place on the word “saint” but is that correct?
What is a “saint” exactly?

Paul wrote to the Corinthians saying.....
“1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor 1:1-3 KJV)

Paul here speaks about his “calling”, which he mentions with regard to to his mission as an “apostle” as well as his “calling” to be among others who are called “saints”.

In Hebrews 3:1-2 Paul says....
“Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.” (KJV)

So again we see this “calling” or invitation from God for some (chosen ones) to fulfill a specific role in the outworking of his purpose.
Christ himself is High Priest and an Apostle. So the role of king/priest is assigned only to the elect, who will be under the direction of their High Priest Jesus Christ.

But Paul also mentions those who are “with” those ones, and Jesus Christ is “Lord” of both groups.

What role do “saints” play in heaven? Revelation 20:6 answers....
“6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” (KJV)

So these are “called” to be “priests” as well as ‘rulers’ with Christ in his Kingdom....these it says, are part of “the first resurrection”....which means that these ones will now take on immortality, not subject to Gehenna or “the second death”. They are resurrected before anyone else so that when the Kingdom “comes” to take over earth's rulership, (Daniel 2:44) these will all be in their positions, ready to take over rulership of the earth under Christ’s direction.
They will reign with Jesus for a thousand years.....which will return redeemed mankind back into reconciliation with the God whom their forebears abandoned at the very beginning of man’s history. (Isaiah 55:11) God’s original purpose will be restored....and the barrier of sin will be removed.

So to us, the “saints” or the “elect” will die, and be resurrected to a new life in heaven in a new spirit body designed to exist there in the presence of God. This is what we believe is being “born again” means.....those who like Jesus, “die in the flesh but made alive in the spirit”. (1 Peter 3:18) Those “baptized into Christ” are therefore “baptized into his death”. They die "faithful to their death" and will receive "the crown of life"....immortal spirit life in heaven. But for the majority of mankind, the earth was always going to be their permanent home. God’s kingdom, under the best rulership man could ever have, will bring the human race back to the way it was all meant to be at the beginning.

Revelation 21:2-5 will see its fulfilment.....
"2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

This is not only scriptural, but also logical......it answers the question of why God permits suffering.....this way humans are given opportunity to answer all the challenges that satan raised in Eden, concerning God’s rightful Sovereignty over the earth. We can stand firm against the devil like Jesus did....and like Adam and his wife should have.....even in our sinful imperfection, we can prove that the devil is a pathetic god, and a bold faced liar.

That is how we see the situation....

The JW’s are misguided in this regard. That’s not what baptism is about and not what Jesus is pointing toward at all.
You’re a sharp gal. You can see he’s speaking about birth, not baptism. Let go of those things you’ve been spoon-fed.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

great post! I sometimes feel there's reincarnation but then I fear it too, though I don't think the Bible supports it. It's a 1 death and life situation but then again, you could be right. I just haven't read all the posts.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The JW’s are misguided in this regard.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it...that doesn't however make us wrong and you right.....Jesus will decide that.

That’s not what baptism is about and not what Jesus is pointing toward at all.

Who said? I believe I have given you scriptural proof that the water is not the water of birth....any human can claim that.....water baptisn however is the first step a Christian must take if they want to be acceptable to the God of Jesus Christ. He himself had to begin his own journey with water baptism.

You’re a sharp gal.

I just know my Bible.....having dedicated 50 years to careful study.

You can see he’s speaking about birth, not baptism. Let go of those things you’ve been spoon-fed.

Sorry, but I see no indication at all that Jesus spoke about natural childbirth. Jesus said that his disciples must be "born of water and spirit".....in the case of Jesus, his water baptism was followed by an anointing with holy spirit, which was accompanied by God's declaration of approval for the difficult course that he was going to undertake.
His disciples also had to be 'baptized in the name of Jesus' by full immersion, even after they had undergone John's baptism, which was for forgiveness of sins committed against the law. The two baptism's were very different. But only those who were baptized in water would have the privilege of God's choosing to become a "saint"...or one of Christ's "elect". That required baptism with holy spirit. But being "born again" would not take place until their resurrection.....when they are given a "new birth" as a "new creation".

I wonder at the "spoon fed" accusation when I could well say the same about all our opponents here....whose "spoon fed" beliefs have you adopted as if they did not come from "men" also. "By their fruits" Jesus said we would recognize his true disciples....in a world of "weeds" (counterfeit Christians created by the devil) and only in "the time of the end" (the approaching harvest) would there be a clear separation.
By their conduct, and by how closely they follow Christ's teachings, we would recognize this hated and persecuted minority. (John 15:18-21)
They will be out preaching like Jesus told them to....and they will know exactly what the "good news of the Kingdom" is so that they can impart this message to others. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 10:11-14; Matthew 24:14)

Are you part of a hated and persecuted minority MrE? Are you closely following ALL the teachings of the Christ?....or only the convenient ones...? Are you taking the good news out to the people as Jesus instructed?....or is church just a building where they preach to the converted and wait for unbelievers to come to them?

Having been raised in Christendom, I know the answer to those questions.....

 

[Mr E]

Sorry, but I see no indication at all that Jesus spoke about natural childbirth.

Well there's your trouble. You don't see it. But you must see it, because it's right there. The real problem is that you don't believe it. Nicodemus was asking about how one becomes born again- and asking in terms of the mechanics of it. Jesus replies putting it in physical terms speaking of the flesh. He wasn't using symbols or metaphors, nor a parable or analogy.

He said--

That which is born of the flesh is flesh --and you think he's talking about baptism? You don't see him speaking of natural childbirth? That's on you.

Your hope is in the Kingdom Hall, unfortunately, and not in the Kingdom of Heaven. Your ideas are those you've adopted, and I'll leave you with them. Baptism is about death and resurrection (from death) not about rebirth. Two separate concepts that you've collided. Secondly, I don't like the term reincarnation at all. It's simply birth. Physical birth. And to have life eternal, one must live and die and be born again. Not as the same person, but the spirit lives again --reincarnates (if you must use that term) and a human babe is born for the first time, while the spirit is again breathed into that new babe. Scripture refers to our physical human bodies as nothing more than garments, or tents or jars or vessels for the spirit contained.

Of John, Jesus said he is Elijah. Not "like" him. Him. -because John received the spirit of Elijah. John was John, but he was also Elijah because while he was born of water (his mother Elizabeth) he had the spirit of Elijah. When asked, John truthfully said that he was not Elijah (he was John) but Jesus said that John was Elijah. Was Jesus lying or confused? Or did Jesus understand a spiritual truth about John that John himself didn't even understand? I'll go with the accuracy of Jesus' pronouncement when he said - "If you can accept it....."

Perhaps you can't.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Well there's your trouble. You don't see it.

I have no trouble......I just disagree with your interpretation.

But you must see it, because it's right there.

Not to me its not. I have explained why already.

The real problem is that you don't believe it.

You are quite correct.....I do not believe as you do. I have a completely different take on the whole scenario as I have explained. Its logical and scriptural.....no one says you have to accept it. Jesus will let us all know where we stand soon enough.

Jesus replies putting it in physical terms speaking of the flesh. He wasn't using symbols or metaphors, nor a parable or analogy.

He said--

That which is born of the flesh is flesh --and you think he's talking about baptism? You don't see him speaking of natural childbirth? That's on you.

Being begotten by God's spirit is an "adoption as sons"...it takes place after a person is baptized in water, with the prospect of entering the Kingdom of God as spirit sons, transformed into immortal spirit beings......but this is only for the "elect". No one else goes to heaven because that is not where God put us...is it? He already had a large family of sons in heaven. But because none of them have lived as humans on earth, choosing some to fulfill a role in the Kingdom will ensure that our rulers are understanding of the human condition....even Jesus.

Your hope is in the Kingdom Hall, unfortunately, and not in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Tell me please what you believe the Kingdom of God to be, and what is its purpose? How does the Kingdom"come"....and how then is God's will "done on earth as it is in heaven"?

If we are to "preach the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before "the end" comes.....what is the good news of the Kingdom? (Matthew 24:14) What is "the end" that Jesus spoke about? The end of what?

The Kingdom Hall is a building....I don't believe in a building....do you?

Your ideas are those you've adopted, and I'll leave you with them.

Perhaps I can say the same thing to you.....?

Baptism is about death and resurrection (from death) not about rebirth.

I never said it was....do you have a comprehension problem?
I said that baptism is a symbolic death and resurrection to a new life in Christ. The rebirth occurs spiritually at first with the anointing of the holy spirit, given as a token of their heavenly inheritance.... but the actual 'rebirth' occurs upon their resurrection, being given a whole new body....a true rebirth.

Two separate concepts that you've collided.

No you collided them in your own head.

Secondly, I don't like the term reincarnation at all. It's simply birth. Physical birth. And to have life eternal, one must live and die and be born again. Not as the same person, but the spirit lives again --reincarnates (if you must use that term) and a human babe is born for the first time, while the spirit is again breathed into that new babe. Scripture refers to our physical human bodies as nothing more than garments, or tents or jars or vessels for the spirit contained.

If you believe that souls are reincarnated, then whatever you want to call it...it is not scriptural. There is no immortal soul/spirit that leaves the body at death to go anywhere.....Jesus never taught such a thing because it is not even mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures.
Jews were never taught immortality of the soul. They picked that up from the Greek philosophers....so did Christendom. Its one of the devil's favorites because it perpetuates his first lie....."you surely will not die". That is not what God told Adam. (genesis 3:19)

Of John, Jesus said he is Elijah. Not "like" him. Him. -because John received the spirit of Elijah. John was John, but he was also Elijah because while he was born of water (his mother Elizabeth) he had the spirit of Elijah.

Elijah was long dead and the Jews had no belief in a "soul" living on after death, so John was NOT Elijah except in a pictorial way.
No one went to heaven before Jesus, (John 3:13) so where was Elijah hiding for almost a 1000 years before Jesus came along?

When asked, John truthfully said that he was not Elijah (he was John) but Jesus said that John was Elijah. Was Jesus lying or confused?

No, Jesus wasn't lying and neither was John.....since neither believed in reincarnation or immortality of the soul.....Jesus was saying that John did a work like Elijah. He prepared the way for the Messiah.

Or did Jesus understand a spiritual truth about John that John himself didn't even understand? I'll go with the accuracy of Jesus' pronouncement when he said - "If you can accept it....."

Since both Jesus and John had the benefit of the holy spirit, I'm guessing that they were on the same page on this.
Nicodemus was a Pharisee who was afraid to speak openly to Jesus, which is why he came under cover of darkness. No one really knows whether he had the courage to come out and admit publicly that Jesus was the Christ....or whether he became a Christian.

Perhaps you can't.

Or perhaps I simply won't.
I know what I believe and why I believe it...I have spent my whole life researching the questions that I asked myself.
I am very satisfied with the answers that the Bible has given me....and I have a united global brotherhood who are all on the same page as I am. Christ is not leading a disunited rabble....he promised to be with his disciples in the most important work that a Christian can do....the preaching of the Kingdom....but I find most in Christendom think that is someone else's job.....and they have no idea what the kingdom is anyway.

 

[Mr E]

Your fifty years of study have done you little good and while your brotherhood is all singing from the same song sheet, it's out of tune. If you study how to beat the drum for fifty years, it won't enable you to make beautiful music on the violin. It's just beating a drum.

But I'm happy to chat with you. I love JW's, I just feel badly (sad) for them. Yesterday as I was driving along I saw a few of them gathered on the grass beside a 7-11 with their lawn chairs and little brochure stand. They thought they were 'preaching the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations' I suppose, putting in a shift to try to earn themselves a spot on the list of the top 144,000. Do you put in your time in that way, or go door-to-door, or do you think your 'work' here on the forum sufficient to earn you the credits needed?

I don't believe in works-based salvation. Sonship is something given, not earned. His favor for me is unearned, unmerited and unmatched.

John taught a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. He didn't invent it. It was a very Jewish practice. The mikveh was long used, as a means of outwardly distinguishing between clean and unclean. It's simply not the same concept as 'born again' rather it distinguishes between dead, and alive, unclean and clean, sinful and set apart (holy). Baptists, like JW's perhaps would surely disagree, but it has nothing to do with salvation as if it was something you can do for yourself that would somehow then require something of Him. It's a washing away of our unclean selves so that we may then present ourselves clean before a holy God. In a physical sense, a washing of the outside of the cup, but in a spiritual sense a cleansing within. If you want to think of it as having recognized that you were dead in your sins, and all your works to be as filthy rags, then perhaps you are ready to be baptized. But that is far from a works-based belief.

Isaiah taught-

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Your works won't count a lick. He compares them to leaves, lovely while they last, but they don't last beyond you.

Finally, and I'm happy to leave you "satisfied" with what you've got after 50 years of drum beating.... Jesus, who received that spirit which rested upon him as John testified after he ceremonially washed him that day at the river Jordan, taught life everlasting. While it might be a strange concept to you and many others, to have 'life everlasting' you must be born again. And again, and again.

 

[Davy]

ANYBODY can come here and CLAIM they are a Christian, even those who are of eastern religions that believe in the FALSE doctrine of reincarnation.

 

[Aunty Jane]

But I'm happy to chat with you. I love JW's, I just feel badly (sad) for them. Yesterday as I was driving along I saw a few of them gathered on the grass beside a 7-11 with their lawn chairs and little brochure stand. They thought they were 'preaching the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations' I suppose, putting in a shift to try to earn themselves a spot on the list of the top 144,000. Do you put in your time in that way, or go door-to-door, or do you think your 'work' here on the forum sufficient to earn you the credits needed?

Well, this kind of ignorance is not unusual.....street witnessing is just one of the ways we get an opportunity to speak to people that we may not be able to find at home. Jesus and his apostles used every avenue open to them to preach Christ’s message. But it’s obvious that door to door was the way Jesus sent them to preach his message.....(Acts 20:20) The message of the kingdom...which I see you conveniently ignored when asked to explain it.

So let me ask you again.....
Tell me please what you believe the Kingdom of God to be, and what is its purpose? How does the Kingdom"come"....and how then is God's will "done on earth as it is in heaven"?

If we are to "preach the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before "the end" comes.....what is the good news of the Kingdom? (Matthew 24:14) What is "the end" that Jesus spoke about? The end of what?

Please explain according to your beliefs.

I don't believe in works-based salvation. Sonship is something given, not earned. His favor for me is unearned, unmerited and unmatched.

We don’t believe in works as a means of salvation either....we believe what James wrote....that ”faith without works is dead”......we support our faith with the works assigned to us by Jesus.....do you?

John taught a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. He didn't invent it. It was a very Jewish practice. The mikveh was long used, as a means of outwardly distinguishing between clean and unclean. It's simply not the same concept as 'born again' rather it distinguishes between dead, and alive, unclean and clean, sinful and set apart (holy).

The Bible speaks of the ritual washing of hands, and the dipping of utensils to cleanse them.
Jesus took the Pharisees to task over the fastidious rituals they performed, but that their filthy hearts were not clean in God’s eye.
The mikveh as it was used by devout Jews had nothing to do with Christian baptism.

Peter reinforced this by his explanation in 1 Peter 3:18-22 KJV....
“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.”

Peter likened Christian baptism to Noah’s ark.....the water that saved Noah and his family, now also saves Christ’s disciples. It’s not for the washing away of sins, but a request made to God for a good conscience on the basis of Christ’s ransom, (if we have repented of our sins.)

Baptists, like JW's perhaps would surely disagree, but it has nothing to do with salvation as if it was something you can do for yourself that would somehow then require something of Him. It's a washing away of our unclean selves so that we may then present ourselves clean before a holy God. In a physical sense, a washing of the outside of the cup, but in a spiritual sense a cleansing within. If you want to think of it as having recognized that you were dead in your sins, and all your works to be as filthy rags, then perhaps you are ready to be baptized. But that is far from a works-based belief.

Peter explains what Christian baptism represents. “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God”.....sins now forgiven on the basis of Christ’s sacrifice.
Christ himself was baptised, although John knew that he had no sins for which to be forgiven. Jesus initiated Christian baptism as a first step on the journey of a Christian’s dedication to do the will of his Father, rather than putting their own will before his......like Jesus did.
Those accepted for entry into God’s kingdom were to be found “doing the will of the Father”. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Finally, and I'm happy to leave you "satisfied" with what you've got after 50 years of drum beating.... Jesus, who received that spirit which rested upon him as John testified after he ceremonially washed him that day at the river Jordan, taught life everlasting. While it might be a strange concept to you and many others, to have 'life everlasting' you must be born again. And again, and again.

Being “satisfied” really means little at the end of the day......the Jews were no doubt “satisfied” with themselves after their success in silencing the last prophet that God sent to them. Jesus pronounced sentence on the ones who stoned and murdered the prophets of old. (Matthew 23:37-39) Whose drum were they beating? Where are the Jews today? In almost 2,000 years, have they accepted the one who “came in the name” of his God?

Only those chosen by God to rule with his son, will be “born again” in order to experience life in heaven. They have a clearly assigned role that the rest of mankind does not. (Revelation 20:6) No one can volunteer for this role...it is God’s choice.
I stand by that belief, and Jesus will show us all soon enough who have believed an inconvenient and unpopular truth......and who are promoting popular but convenient lies.

We are all free to believe as we wish......this is why we preach...to help Jesus sort the “sheep from the goats” because this is the only “testimony” that the people in this time period will get.....but like all the important choices we make, there are consequences....some welcome....some not.

 

[Mr E]

We are all free to believe as we wish......this is why we preach...to help Jesus sort the “sheep from the goats” because this is the only “testimony” that the people in this time period will get.....but like all the important choices we make, there are consequences....some welcome....some not.

lol.... okay. -but I don't think Jesus needs your "help."

 

[Aunty Jane]

lol.... okay. -but I don't think Jesus needs your "help."

Jesus has never needed our help, nor has his Father....but he gives us the privilege of working with him, whilst at the same time evaluating our sincerity by our willingness to obey his instructions, especially when they are difficult. Do you think it is easy to go to someone's door and talk to them about God's Kingdom? And yet that is what Jesus told us to do....to teach those who respond and to make disciples of them. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14)

Jesus said if they hated him, they would hate us also....but if some listened to him, some would listen to us as well....(John 15:18-21)
I have had the privilege of assisting many to come into a relationship with Jehovah through his son and by studying his word.....I love nothing more than to teach them about the wonderful future that God holds out to those who are willing to listen.

It appears as though you are dodging my questions.....third time I will ask.....
Tell me please what you believe the Kingdom of God to be, and what is its purpose? How does the Kingdom"come"....and how then is God's will "done on earth as it is in heaven"?

If we are to "preach the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before "the end" comes.....what is the good news of the Kingdom? (Matthew 24:14) What is "the end" that Jesus spoke about? The end of what?

Please explain according to your beliefs.

......no answers? All I'm hearing are crickets.....

 

[Mr E]

It appears as though you are dodging my questions.....third time I will ask.....

Please don't equate ignoring your many questions with "dodging" them. It's a well known JW "tactic" to prolong conversations ad nauseum with innumerable questions. Yer barking up the wrong tree. I have no obligation to answer any of your questions-- I can close the door at anytime of my choosing and you get the privilege of thinking you've been persecuted in the process. It earns a badge of some sort for your sash, doesn't it? But-- since I genuinely like you and since I genuinely like the conversational aspect of forums like this, where people can share perspectives without bothering folks by disturbing their dinners-- I'll do you the courtesy here.

Do you think it is easy to go to someone's door and talk to them about God's Kingdom?

I don't think it's easy, no. Neither do I think it's "helpful" to Jesus. I think it's ignorant, arrogant, unnecessary and wholly-- unhelpful. It promotes your religion, not 'the Kingdom' of God which needs no promotion from you or anyone else. I think you are probably right in thinking you and I have different ideas regarding that Kingdom.

Tell me please what you believe the Kingdom of God to be, and what is its purpose? How does the Kingdom"come"....and how then is God's will "done on earth as it is in heaven"?

The gospels are full of examples that Jesus offered informing us what the Kingdom is like. Jesus taught (and I believe) -- the kingdom of God is in your midst. (within, among and all around you).

“What is the kingdom of God like, and to what shall I compare it? “It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and threw into his own garden; and it grew and became a tree, and THE BIRDS OF THE AIR NESTED IN ITS BRANCHES.”

(God makes it grow without any help)

And again He said, “To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? “It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened.”

I like the companion to this parable as recorded in the gospel of Thomas-

Jesus said : "The Kingdom of the Father is like a woman who was carrying a jar full of meal. While she was walking on a far road the handle of the jar broke and the meal emptied out behind her on the road. She did not realize it. She had noticed no accident. When she reached her house, she put the jar down and found it empty."

(The good news is spread simply by her walk. Without any effort on her part or even any awareness.)

If we are to "preach the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before "the end" comes.....what is the good news of the Kingdom? (Matthew 24:14) What is "the end" that Jesus spoke about? The end of what?

Ah-- here's the rub. The good news is what this thread is really about. It's about Life everlasting, or eternal life if you prefer. I'm guessing this (Matt 24:14) is at the least a good part of what motivates JW's to go door knocking. They must think that they, through their 'promotional marketing' are ushering in the kingdom of God (according to what they think it is). Just doing some simple math--- IF we can preach the gospel to the whole world as witnesses to all nations-- THEN the end will come, and the kingdom begin.... "Thy Kingdom come" --right?

But that's not how it works. "The end" is the end of an age. It's like the end of a chapter in a book. The end of the chapter is not the end of the story. The end Jesus spoke of was near at hand and it came exactly as he said it would for that generation (age). We know this because we are informed by history. We know this because we are informed by testimony of 'actual' witnesses who lived at the time, who heard and saw and testified to those things he taught-- we call them gospel accounts. Among those early witnesses we have the testimony of Paul's letters, who makes it clear that no door knocking is required- He is talking about the means by which even in those days, at that time, the gospel had already been "promoted" sufficiently for 'the end' to come-- and it did.

--the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

You'd have to admit, right or wrong-- Paul must have had a different concept in mind, than you do. (I'm going to go with Paul and Jesus).

Paul mentions several times in Romans as examples about how the gospel was already being proclaimed throughout the whole world at that time. We don't have to wonder. Paul tells us what he is talking about- he explains his understanding and though he is considered the first and greatest missionary perhaps, he isn't talking about door knocking like it's a box that must be checked. In the 10th chapter he points to a psalm of David where scripture preserves the idea that God's story gets told without voices...


The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.
In them He has placed a tent for the sun,
Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber;
It rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
Its rising is from one end of the heavens,
And its circuit to the other end of them;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.

We can go back even farther in the book. To an earlier chapter. You know, 'the end' came for Noah and that generation. But every ending awakens a new season, a new chapter, and new "incarnation."

“While the earth remains,
Seedtime and harvest,
And cold and heat,
And summer and winter,
And day and night
Shall not cease.”

Jesus said if they hated him, they would hate us also....but if some listened to him, some would listen to us as well....(John 15:18-21)
I have had the privilege of assisting many to come into a relationship with Jehovah through his son and by studying his word.....I love nothing more than to teach them about the wonderful future that God holds out to those who are willing to listen.

It's almost like coveting hate. It's like JW's go out with good intent, as you have stated here- wanting to preach and teach and witness and 'help' people come into relationship. Wonderful. They also seem to think that it earns them some kind of credit if they do this, and some future reward if they get the door slammed in their faces. Hint-- you are annoying people. You get what you deserve just like the telemarketers get hung up on when they call about my car's extended warranty or solar panels. They are not earning heavenly rewards and I don't hate them. I hate being bothered by them. There are probably telemarketers in cubicles at some call center saying-- Jesus said if they hated him they would hate us also....

Next time you go to one of your Kingdom Hall meetings, poke everyone with a pin. When they yelp, explain that you were just trying to get their attention so you could tell them about Jesus. Do this every time, to everyone you encounter. In time, people will know you as that lady who pokes everyone with pins. Some people will grow to hate being poked with pins, and some might even grow to hate you BECAUSE you do this. It's not their fault. It's yours. Even if your motivation was pure in wanting to talk about Jesus. It's your methods that suck.

This is the heart of what JW's are blind toward.