The Bible

[Selene]

It's probably a good thing you removed that reference to Islam and the Quran. Your assertion there that Muslims believe the Quran was hand written and dropped from the sky is simply not true according to Islamic writing or tradition.

I have spoken to some Muslims who actually believed that the Qu'ran came directly from God and not written by any man at all. However, they were only some Muslims. That is the reason I took it out was because they do not represent the entire Muslim community.

 

[Duckybill]

I have also said that the Bible is the word of God, but I also recognize that it was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. I know that men wrote it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and that the Bible was given to us through the Church and was not dropped down from the sky.

Are you saying the Bible is erroneous?

 

[HammerStone]

Agreed. Around these parts the Bible is the inspired Word of God - that is something any Christian should be able to agree on regardless of denomination. It does not include clauses, asterisks, and disclaimers. Either God inspired the Word otherwise it's a falsified document. If even parts are heavily questioned, then it becomes a feast of desire when you start throwing out this part and that because it doesn't sound quite right. There are plenty of other religions that add scriptural texts as they deem necessary.

If trying to argue from the quasi-historical narrative that somehow there wasn't some central crux (whether it was called Bible or not) that was passed down with early cultures...well that's a bad argument. We know Enoch (as an example) prophesied in his time and it follows that this stuff didn't take place in a vacuum where no one kept it written down, drawn, or at least passed orally. We also know that many cultures have some eerily similar narratives suggesting some kernel of truth at the center.

 

[TexUs]

I have also said that the Bible is the word of God, but I also recognize that it was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. I know that men wrote it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and that the Bible was given to us through the Church and was not dropped down from the sky.

Let's say, you are sitting down to write a letter to a church in Rome. You are commanded and inspired to write something by God.

Let's then say... He says... "My penalty for sin is death, but my gift in Christ is eternal life". What do you write down? Exactly what you're commanded?

I can't think of a single case in which God would tell me to write something, and I'd write something else... That's disobedience. So please help us out here, how exactly do you think that's happened all over the Bible?

It's probably a good thing you removed that reference to Islam and the Quran. Your assertion there that Muslims believe the Quran was hand written and dropped from the sky is simply not true according to Islamic writing or tradition.The Quran was supposedly dictated to Mohamed by the angel Gabriel over a period of 22 years in the 7th century AD.

Especially if he's supposedly read it, LOL!!!!!

 

[Selene]

Are you saying the Bible is erroneous?

No, I said that the Bible is the word of God, but I also recognize that the Bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Let's say, you are sitting down to write a letter to a church in Rome. You are commanded and inspired to write something by God.

Let's then say... He says... "My penalty for sin is death, but my gift in Christ is eternal life". What do you write down? Exactly what you're commanded?

I can't think of a single case in which God would tell me to write something, and I'd write something else... That's disobedience. So please help us out here, how exactly do you think that's happened all over the Bible?

So, what part in my sentence makes you think that I said otherwise???????

 

[Nomad]

No, I said that the Bible is the word of God, but I also recognize that the Bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit.

So what exactly does that mean? You seem to be playing this game of giving with one hand what you take away with the other so that no one can ascertain what in the world you really believe. Why this shell game Selene?

 

[Duckybill]

No, I said that the Bible is the word of God, but I also recognize that the Bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit.

So, what part in my sentence makes you think that I said otherwise???????

I guess I don't get your point. If you believe the Bible is the Word of God, without error, then we agree.

 

[Selene]

So what exactly does that mean? You seem to be playing this game of giving with one hand what you take away with the other so that no one can ascertain what in the world you really believe. Why this shell game Selene?

It means that the Bible is indeed the word of God. It is also written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. In other words, the Bible was not personally handwritten by God and dropped from the sky. Believe it or not...humans actually wrote the Bible under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

God has always used humans to get His message across. God used the prophets, Moses, and others to get His message across. Despite that these are sinful and fallible men who make mistakes, it does not matter. Why? Because only the Holy Spirit can use fallible men to get His message across correctly and infallibly and without error. Why? Because God is All-powerful and Almighty. He can do anything. So, even when He uses men to write His message down, we know that these fallible men would get His message down correctly and infallibly and without error because the Holy Spirit was inspired by them to do so.

With you, all you can say is "the Bible is the word of God," "the Bible is the word of God," "the Bible is the word of God'. You feel uncomfortable saying that men wrote the Bible because you know that humans make mistakes. Tut..tut....tut....you of little faith. Did you not understand that God have always used fallible humans to get His message across correctly and infallibly and without any errors because the power of the infallible Holy Spirit is greater than man? Tut..tut...tut.

 

[Rach1370]

I am really enjoying our conversation Rach - it is so refreshing to read your well-though out posts that may disagree with mine, but without any rudeness at all - thank you!!

I'm enjoying it too! Too often I find that someone who doesn't agree with me has to also declare I'm damned as well. I can't understand it really, I would think (quite apart from the whole...I'm a Christians and should act like it!) that the best way to try and reason with someone, would to be...you know....to reason with them!! Makes for a better and more convincing approach than just hurling insults.

so as long as I don't get too crazy about defining who He is and start a cult in South America - I think I am ok pursuing Him, with my mind; as well as my heart and strength.

:lol:

According to Genesis, Adam and Eve had rules in the Garden that they followed

This is a good point I hadn't considered. God did require Adam and Eve to follow some rules pre fall huh.

So to be clear, God does not limit Himself to avoid sin or evil - He uses it in a different way - to be know by us and the angels.

Hmm. I see your point, but personally, I still believe that God is not following His own laws per se, but acting completely within His own nature, which He shares with us and is the basis for the laws He requires of us.
As for us knowing and understanding God, He really is so beyond human understanding; but do I believe that He has 'dumbed down' some concepts within the Bible so that we may grasp small amounts of His glory? Yup.

As Paul says in Romans 6:19 "I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations..."

Is it this 'human terms' that you are referring to in some of your thoughts about God? Are you, in a way, trying to use your own 'human terms' to define God? I do understand that, but a bit of friendly advice....please do be careful about doing this. I can just see satan gleefully waiting to slip just one bit of erroneous information in there, and the next thing you know you might find yourself in South America surrounded by crazies!!!!

 

[Nomad]

With you, all you can say is "the Bible is the word of God," "the Bible is the word of God," "the Bible is the word of God'. You feel uncomfortable saying that men wrote the Bible because you know that humans make mistakes. Tut..tut....tut....you of little faith. Did you not understand that God have always used fallible humans to get His message across correctly and infallibly and without any errors because the power of the infallible Holy Spirit is greater than man? Tut..tut...tut.

Please show me where I ever denied that God used inspired men to pen the Scriptures.

 

[Selene]

Please show me where I ever denied that God used inspired men to pen the Scriptures.

If that was the case, then why were you so confused when I say that the "Bible is the word of God but I also recognized that men inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote the Bible?" Why did you say this in your post? Explain.

From Nomad: So what exactly does that mean? You seem to be playing this game of giving with one hand what you take away with the other so that no one can ascertain what in the world you really believe. Why this shell game Selene?

 

[Nomad]

If that was the case, then why were you so confused when I say that the "Bible is the word of God but I also recognized that men inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote the Bible?" Why did you say this in your post? Explain.

From Nomad: So what exactly does that mean? You seem to be playing this game of giving with one hand what you take away with the other so that no one can ascertain what in the world you really believe. Why this shell game Selene?

Written by Selene:

"No, I said that the Bible is the word of God, but I also recognize that the Bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit."

It's that dubious "BUT" in the middle of your statement. When someone says they believe this or that, but. . . I know they are getting ready to qualify that belief in some way that takes away from it.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Let's say, you are sitting down to write a letter to a church in Rome. You are commanded and inspired to write something by God.

Let's then say... He says... "My penalty for sin is death, but my gift in Christ is eternal life". What do you write down? Exactly what you're commanded?

I can't think of a single case in which God would tell me to write something, and I'd write something else... That's disobedience. So please help us out here, how exactly do you think that's happened all over the Bible?


Especially if he's supposedly read it, LOL!!!!!

Let's say you're a visual thinker and God uses your mind the way it works. Would you come up with more descriptive meanings trying to convey the visions in your head to words? Maybe use metaphors?

It seems to me that there are some spatial parts in the Bible. Poetic I guess could be another way.

(edited to add)
There's quite a few things I understand from the Bible but I have absolutely no way to put them to words. Could it be possible some of the Biblical authors had this same problem?

 

[Selene]

It's that dubious "BUT" in the middle of your statement. When someone says they believe this or that, but. . . I know they are getting ready to qualify that belief in some way that takes away from it.

Oh...okay. I see now. It's because of the word "but." The only reason I used that word was because somewhere in this thread I was getting the impression that God was the one who wrote the Bible. In one of my posts, I wrote that the Bible did not come down from the sky. God did not give us the Bible. He gave us the Church who wrote the Bible with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, thus making the Bible the word of God.

 

[TexUs]

Because only the Holy Spirit can use fallible men to get His message across correctly and infallibly and without error.

Except you think human fallibility has tainted it.

 

[Duckybill]

[/size]
Except you think human fallibility has tainted it.

That was the impression I got also from her statement.

 

[Selene]

Nowhere in my post did I ever say that human falliblity tainted Scripture. In the first place, Nomad posted this statement below:

Selene,

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

The idea that God is higher than his own self-revelation and communication is asinine on its face. God's 'word' represents God's will and nature. God's 'word' represents who God is and what God wants. God's 'word' represents God. No, God is not higher than his own 'word.'

As I said previously, the only reason anyone takes this low view of Scripture is because it clashes with their theological and philosophical presuppositions and preferences. This kind of subjectivity is born out of a sinful emotionalism and rationalization rather than the objective communication and revelation of God and his word.

What would you know about God and redemption without the Scriptures? Selene, I challenge you and your friends to show me an objective, extra-Biblical, source of revelation outside of the Holy Scriptures. Show me how I can access this extra-Biblical communication in order to see it or hear it for myself.

As you can see, Nomad thinks that the Bible is equal to God. There are some of you who think the same way. Those of you who think that God is NOT higher than the Bible is incorrect. God is higher than the Bible. Why? Because the Bible is not God. God is three persons in one. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible is NOT one of the Holy Trinity. Therefore, it is wrong to worship the Bible as God because the Bible is not God and was never God. The Bible was never equal to God.

Jesus Christ is the "Word of God" (Logos) that came down in the flesh. The Bible is NOT the "word" that came down in the flesh. The Greek word for Bible would be "graphe" (meaning written scripture). It was the "Logos" (Jesus Christ) who came down in the flesh. And this "Logos" is God. The Bible is not equal to God and therefore should not even be worshipped as God. This is why I said that the Bible did not drop down from the sky. Yes, the Bible is the word of God, but it was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. When Nomad stated that "God is not higher than his own word' (meaning the Bible), this is incorrect. God is higer than the Bible because the Bible was never equal to God in the first place. Only Jesus and the Holy Spirit are equal to God and nothing else beyond that. I hope that you now understand why I stated that the Bible did not fall from the sky. It is the word of God but it was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit and certainly not God nor even equal to God.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[TexUs]

You guys are trying to distance yourselves from statements like these:

I believe the people added the wrathful intentions to the events.

If it's truly God's written, inspired, and infallible Word, then "people added" is nonsense- and this statement should be repented of and never suggested again.

If you believe "people added"... Then fallible people have tainted what God had them write- and it is NOT God's word but a human's.


So make your choice.

 

[Selene]

You guys are trying to distance yourselves from statements like these:



If it's truly God's written, inspired, and infallible Word, then "people added" is nonsense- and this statement should be repented of and never suggested again.

If you believe "people added"... Then fallible people have tainted what God had them write- and it is NOT God's word but a human's.


So make your choice.

God's message is hidden in Israel's history. TexUs, do you not remember what I told you as to why we do not take everything in the Bible literally? Do you not remember that in the Bible it says that the earth is being held up by pillars? This is why we do not take everything in the Bible literally. There are no pillars holding up the earth, but the message in those verses is that God created everything including those things which ancient Israel did not understand ----such as the pillars they thought was holding up the earth. God's message was never about the pillars. His message goes much deeper than that.

 

[TexUs]

God's message is hidden in Israel's history. TexUs, do you not remember what I told you as to why we do not take everything in the Bible literally? Do you not remember that in the Bible it says that the earth is being held up by pillars? This is why we do not take everything in the Bible literally. There are no pillars holding up the earth, but the message in those verses is that God created everything including those things which ancient Israel did not understand ----such as the pillars they thought was holding up the earth. God's message was never about the pillars. His message goes much deeper than that.

[font="arial][size="2"]I could say "Elvis is the King".

Does this literally make him a King or is it symbolic? We can always debate that. However, it doesn't change my original statement that "Elvis is the King". It's still what I said.[/size][/font]

Someone ADDING to that, makes it not what I said anymore. "Elvis is the King of the midgets".
This isn't what I said, you've added to it and made it not my own anymore.

There's a night and day difference between the literal vs symbolic argument and the belief that humans have marred the Bible.