The Bible

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aspen

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You guys are trying to distance yourselves from statements like these:



If it's truly God's written, inspired, and infallible Word, then "people added" is nonsense- and this statement should be repented of and never suggested again.

If you believe "people added"... Then fallible people have tainted what God had them write- and it is NOT God's word but a human's.


So make your choice.


How does this taint the meaning of the Bible? I would argue that it actually adds incredible meaning to the Bible by giving us insight into the mindset of Fallen man. Like I said before, everything in the Bible is supposed to be there. It reminds me of Moses bargaining with God to save as many of His people as possible - do you really think Moses was talking God down? Com'mon! If he was, we must have an emotionally volatile God who has to has His emotions managed like some hot head by His creation! Instead, God was teaching Moses perspective taking skills, mercy, compassion and love by stretching his mind. Moses learned that human life matters / God is merciful / God answers prayer / God loves His creation.
 

Selene

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[font="arial][size="2"]I could say "Elvis is the King".

Does this literally make him a King or is it symbolic? We can always debate that. However, it doesn't change my original statement that "Elvis is the King". It's still what I said.[/size][/font]

Someone ADDING to that, makes it not what I said anymore. "Elvis is the King of the midgets".
This isn't what I said, you've added to it and made it not my own anymore.

There's a night and day difference between the literal vs symbolic argument and the belief that humans have marred the Bible.

My brother, the people during those times are very different from us. When God spoke to them, He gave them His message, but He did not take away their human knowledge. How God spoke to them is a mystery, but He spoke to them through their history. Because His message is in their history, we need to take into account the culture, language, and idioms of the people during those times and not interpret them according to modern times.

For example, if I say these words: I did not say that you stole money. One thousands years in the future, when people look at this simple sentence, they can actually interpret in 5 different ways:

1. I did not say that you stole money - could be interpreted that it was not me that said it but someone else.

2. I did not say that you stole money - could be interpreted that I did not say the statement at all.

3. I did not say that you stole money - could be interpreted that that it was someone else who stole the money.

4. I did not say that you stole money - could be interpreted that the person did not steal the money but borrowed it.

5. I did not say that you stole money - could be interpreted that it was not money that was stolen but something else.

If this one sentence can be interpreted 5 different ways by people living 1000 years in the future, how much more the Bible? The message is there, but to interpret it correctly, one must not only look at the context of what is being said, but also take into account the time period. Another example, is the word "gay." In the 1940s, if a person says, "He is gay" in that time period, it is interpreted to mean that the person is happy. Today, when one says "He is gay," it has to do with his sexual orientation rather than his being happy.
 

aspen

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[font="arial][size="2"]I could say "Elvis is the King".

Does this literally make him a King or is it symbolic? We can always debate that. However, it doesn't change my original statement that "Elvis is the King". It's still what I said.[/size][/font]

Someone ADDING to that, makes it not what I said anymore. "Elvis is the King of the midgets".
This isn't what I said, you've added to it and made it not my own anymore.

There's a night and day difference between the literal vs symbolic argument and the belief that humans have marred the Bible.

This is an interesting post. Let's look at the wording - "Elvis is the King" - ok what do we know about Elvis? We know that he is credited with being one of the founders of rock-n-roll, which explains the title.


We can use the same reasoning with the second statement - pretending for a moment that it is an inspired statement "Elvis is the King of midgets". What do we know about Elvis' relationship to midgets? Nothing if we are talking about little people. Nothing if we are talking about side-shows or fantasy books containing midgets. Hmm perhaps it is not literal. Who wrote it? An old man writing as a contemporary of Elvis? Maybe he is talking about Elvis' fans and describing them as cultural or musical (taste wise) midgets (less than). All of this speculation serves several purposes:


1. Preserving the statement as inspired
2. Gaining as much meaning as possible without compromising the meaning that we understand fully - the fact that Elvis is King.
3. Sacrifices a literal interpretation in order to preserve the character of Elvis.


My point is, I am valuing the verses I read as inspired. I am not approaching the verses like Bishop Spong or the Jesus Seminar people - looking for a way to discredit the verses. I am preserving the character of God when I study verses - the literal meaning is secondary to the character of God. Finally, I believe there is more to be learned about the mindset of the people writing the verses than a literal translation can provide.
'


 

TexUs

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How does this taint the meaning of the Bible? I would argue that it actually adds incredible meaning to the Bible by giving us insight into the mindset of Fallen man.
This isn't disagreement with me then, you acknowledge that you believe humans have added to God's Word and made it not his own.

The last 3 posts are you trying to justify that belief.
 

WhiteKnuckle

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[font="arial][size="2"]I could say "Elvis is the King".

Does this literally make him a King or is it symbolic? We can always debate that. However, it doesn't change my original statement that "Elvis is the King". It's still what I said.[/size][/font]

Someone ADDING to that, makes it not what I said anymore. "Elvis is the King of the midgets". This isn't what I said, you've added to it and made it not my own anymore.

There's a night and day difference between the literal vs symbolic argument and the belief that humans have marred the Bible.

ROFLOL :lol: :lol: :D :lol:
 

Nomad

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God is higher than the Bible.

I explained why such a belief is ridiculous quite clearly and you addressed none of it. You're simply reasserting your error. Allow me to explain, once again, the problem with your irrational view.

What God says flows from his character or nature and expresses his character or nature. To say that God is higher than his 'word' is to say that God is higher than his own nature. This is a glaring oxymoron. The practical implication of your view implies that God can lie. If God is 'higher' than what he says, then what he says and what he is and does can logically be two different things. How could we ever trust a God like this? God could say one thing and do another. If you were to question God about this he could simply say, "Don't question me about my word!" "I'm higher than my word!"

I think you need to think about this a bit more.
 

aspen

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This isn't disagreement with me then, you acknowledge that you believe humans have added to God's Word and made it not his own.

The last 3 posts are you trying to justify that belief.

Humans have added to the Bible - they have added their inspired portion. Just like Mary added her DNA to Jesus. All of it is supposed to be there - God used humans for a reason. It is sort of like bees making honey - humans could just use sugar, but we benefit from the multiple pollens that the bees contribute.




I explained why such a belief is ridiculous quite clearly and you addressed none of it. You're simply reasserting your error. Allow me to explain, once again, the problem with your irrational view.

What God says flows from his character or nature and expresses his character or nature. To say that God is higher than his 'word' is to say that God is higher than his own nature. This is a glaring oxymoron. The practical implication of your view implies that God can lie. If God is 'higher' than what he says, then what he says and what he is and does can logically be two different things. How could we ever trust a God like this? God could say one thing and do another. If you were to question God about this he could simply say, "Don't question me about my word!" "I'm higher than my word!"

I think you need to think about this a bit more.

This is really an incredible statement from someone who cannot even admit that God follows His own law.


 

Nomad

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This is really an incredible statement from someone who cannot even admit that God follows His own law.

Do human judges break the law when they deprive a criminal of their freedom or even mete out the death penalty? No, they're not breaking the law. They're upholding the law and seeing that justice is served.

You're problem Aspen is that your view of man is too high and your view of God is too low. There is none righteous, no not one. All deserve death. None deserve life. God is obligated to give grace and mercy to no one. It's a miracle that he gives grace and mercy to any. God does no wrong when he metes out justice instead of mercy. This is thoroughly Biblical.

The Apostle Paul dealt with people like you Aspen and he has an inspired word for you. Read carefully and try not to miss the point of the passage.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?
 

TexUs

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Humans have added to the Bible - they have added their inspired portion.

So what's a "human inspired portion"??? Did Hitler inspire it?

This is really an incredible statement from someone who cannot even admit that God follows His own law.
That's like saying "you can't even admit Satan has a pointy tail"... Well, no kidding, because, we don't know that as a fact.


 

Selene

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I explained why such a belief is ridiculous quite clearly and you addressed none of it. You're simply reasserting your error. Allow me to explain, once again, the problem with your irrational view.

What God says flows from his character or nature and expresses his character or nature. To say that God is higher than his 'word' is to say that God is higher than his own nature. This is a glaring oxymoron. The practical implication of your view implies that God can lie. If God is 'higher' than what he says, then what he says and what he is and does can logically be two different things. How could we ever trust a God like this? God could say one thing and do another. If you were to question God about this he could simply say, "Don't question me about my word!" "I'm higher than my word!"

I think you need to think about this a bit more.

I did addressed it. You just don't like my answer. God is higher than the Bible because the Bible is not God nor equal to God. There is nothing higher than God. You were in error if you think that the Bible is equal in anyway to God. As I said, God is three persons in one. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible was never part of the Holy Trinity.

And for your information, there are actually two "words of God" - the written word (graphe) and the spoken Word (Logos). The spoken Word (Logos) is Jesus Christ who came down and became flesh. The written word (graphe) is NOT God, was NEVER God and is not even equal to God and therefore should never be worshipped as God. Simple as that. Your error is in thinking that the spoken Word is exactly the same as the written word. The spoken "Word of God" is a person and has a name. His name is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the "Word of God" is the one you can worship because He is God.

When you worship the Bible as God, you make the Bible into an idol. Nowhere in the Bible did it even say to worship Scripture. Written scripture have always told you to worship God and God alone. It did not say to worship Scripture. It never even said that Scripture is equal to God.
 

Nomad

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The written word (graphe) is NOT God, was NEVER God and is not even equal to God and therefore should never be worshipped as God. Simple as that.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God. . .

The word 'Scripture' there a translation of the Greek word 'graphe.' It's said to be breathed out by God. While the Scriptures are not God, which is something I never said, they are the 'utterances' of God as Paul calls them in Rom. 3:2. The Greek word he uses there is 'logion' which is a cognate of 'logos.' The primary meaning of 'logos' is 'a word' or 'utterance' in the sense of communication--spoken or otherwise. So you're mistaken that there is some sort of sharp dichotomy between 'logos' and 'graphe.' So what I said previously is still valid. Any communication that is God breathed proceeds from the nature and character of God and is an expression of the same. Again, to say that God is higher than his own utterances is to say that God is higher than his own nature and character. And again, this is an oxymoron.

G3056
λόγος
logos
Thayer Definition:
1) of speech
1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
1b) what someone has said
1b1) a word
1b2) the sayings of God
1b3) decree, mandate or order
1b4) of the moral precepts given by God
1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
1c) discourse
1c1) the act of speaking, speech
1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
1c3) a kind or style of speaking
1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
1d) doctrine, teaching
1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
2) its use as respect to the MIND alone
2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration
2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score
2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
2e1) reason would
2f) reason, cause, ground
3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world’s life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man’s salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3004
Citing in TDNT: 4:69, 505

G3051
λόγιον
logion
Thayer Definition:
1) a brief utterance, a divine oracle (doubtless because oracles were generally brief)
1a) in the NT, the words or utterances of God
1b) of the contents of the Mosaic law
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3052
Citing in TDNT: 4:137, 505
 

Selene

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2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God. . .

The word 'Scripture' there a translation of the Greek word 'graphe.' It's said to be breathed out by God. While the Scriptures are not God, which is something I never said, they are the 'utterances' of God as Paul calls them in Rom. 3:2. The Greek word he uses there is 'logion' which is a cognate of 'logos.' The primary meaning of 'logos' is 'a word' or 'utterance' in the sense of communication--spoken or otherwise. So you're mistaken that there is some sort of sharp dichotomy between 'logos' and 'graphe.' So what I said previously is still valid. Any communication that is God breathed proceeds from the nature and character of God and is an expression of the same. Again, to say that God is higher than his own utterances is to say that God is higher than his own nature and character. And again, this is an oxymoron.

"Breathed by God" does not mean that the Bible becomes God. God also breathed life into Adam, but Adam is not God and is not supposed to be worshipped as God. Nomad, the fact that you said that God is NOT higher than the Bible is already implying that God is equal to the Bible, which is incorrect.
 

WhiteKnuckle

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Why is there confusion with this?

The Bible is not God,, etc etc,,,,,,,,,

The Bible is the Authority when it comes to a comminication from God. All actions, thoughts ideas and experiences we have that pertain to God and our "Religion" (for lack of a better term) are judged by the words written in the book.

The Bible is the expressly written word of God, it's a knowledge of God that He gave to us. It's what we use to compare theocracy.

I don't know of anyone that bows down to worship the Bible. We wouldn't do that anymore than we would worship a pilar that supports the gates of heaven. We don't worship the Bible anymore than we worship the buildings we call churches.

But, as the written word of God, it should be revered every bit as much as God Himself. Nothing that Comes from God willl contradict anything written in those pages.

Where's the confusion comming from? What's the problem?
 

mjrhealth

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Why is there confusion with this?

The Bible is not God,, etc etc,,,,,,,,,

The Bible is the Authority when it comes to a comminication from God. All actions, thoughts ideas and experiences we have that pertain to God and our "Religion" (for lack of a better term) are judged by the words written in the book.

The Bible is the expressly written word of God, it's a knowledge of God that He gave to us. It's what we use to compare theocracy.

I don't know of anyone that bows down to worship the Bible. We wouldn't do that anymore than we would worship a pilar that supports the gates of heaven. We don't worship the Bible anymore than we worship the buildings we call churches.

But, as the written word of God, it should be revered every bit as much as God Himself. Nothing that Comes from God willl contradict anything written in those pages.

Where's the confusion comming from? What's the problem?


Funnt that you should say all that, if it was from God, then there wpuld be no confusion, no arguing no descent. Never once does God, Jesus or rhe Holy spirit say anything will be Judged by the written word, but somehow christians cant seperate the spoken word " Which is spirirt and brings life" or the written word, " the letter killeth" even Jesus Himself, ( according to the bible). says It cant bring you life" in the end , God isnt going to give you ten questions on the bible, or ask you if you read it, His only question will be " do you believe my Son died for your sins".? So now that yo know about Jesus, when are you going to turn to Him and learn from Him, or is it that you think he cant dop that without the bible. Maybe you cant, but its nnever stopped Him before.

In His LOve
 

WhiteKnuckle

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Funnt that you should say all that, if it was from God, then there wpuld be no confusion, no arguing no descent. Never once does God, Jesus or rhe Holy spirit say anything will be Judged by the written word, but somehow christians cant seperate the spoken word " Which is spirirt and brings life" or the written word, " the letter killeth" even Jesus Himself, ( according to the bible). says It cant bring you life" in the end , God isnt going to give you ten questions on the bible, or ask you if you read it, His only question will be " do you believe my Son died for your sins".? So now that yo know about Jesus, when are you going to turn to Him and learn from Him, or is it that you think he cant dop that without the bible. Maybe you cant, but its nnever stopped Him before.

In His LOve

Sure, What I mean is, on earth, in our human form, what we have is the Bible which is the written word of God. If a man comes to you and says God approves of homosexuality.... What do you say then? And where do you get your information?

As far as Judgement day,,,, Do you think God will say or do anything on the contrary from what is written in the Bible? Did Jesus do anything contrary to what was written in scripture during his time on earth?
 

mjrhealth

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Sure, What I mean is, on earth, in our human form, what we have is the Bible which is the written word of God. If a man comes to you and says God approves of homosexuality.... What do you say then? And where do you get your information?

As far as Judgement day,,,, Do you think God will say or do anything on the contrary from what is written in the Bible? Did Jesus do anything contrary to what was written in scripture during his time on earth?

On earth we have Jesus, we have the Holy spirit to guide and lead us into all the truth. Are they not enough?

In His Love
 

WhiteKnuckle

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On earth we have Jesus, we have the Holy spirit to guide and lead us into all the truth. Are they not enough?

In His Love

Good point. However, saying that we need the Bible isn't putting God down at all. As I stated before, I don't see how they're inseperable.

But, what exactly is the point of all of this,, that's what I want to know.
 

mjrhealth

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Notice He sid, " the words that He spoke". not the words that Paul spkoe, or David. or moses or Jeremiah, His words. His words are spirirt, they remain active all aorund us until they complete what they where sent to do, when we recieve them in the spirirt they give us life, just like mary concieved Jesus in her womb when she accepted the word that the angle spoke, which where from God. The bible cannot do that. You can live without the bible but you cannot live withoput Jesus, the bible cannot save you, and no mattrer hiow much you read it , it cannot bring you closer to Christ, the only way to do that is top spend time alone with Him Why dont you put your partner in the lounge and just go to bed with a book every night, how long do you think the relationsip will last, oh but you cant seperate them, your partner would not saty lonhg if you put a book before them.

Where is the Love of Christ

In His Love