The Biblical Basis for Catholic Distinctives

[Berserk]

Much of the fundamentalist screed directed against Catholics here consists of mindless unbiblical generalizations. These fundamentalists lack the integrity to actually study the biblical basis for Catholic doctrinal distinctives and practices. Informed Catholics might justifiably issue this challenge, 'Let's get into the Word!" This thread will enumerate and methodically explore the biblical basis for several Catholic distinctives so that readers might understand why some evangelicals in my town have fled their evangelical churches to find God real in our local Catholic church.

My thread will initially focus on these 9 Catholic distinctives:
(1) priestly confession (2) the priestly pronouncement of absolution (3) prayer to saints
(4) the Catholic perspective on holy relics (5) Catholic use of holy water (6) Purgatory
(7) Transubstantiation (8) the Catholic doctrine of justification (9) the Catholic view of the authority of Scripture and tradition

To avoid incoherent chaos, please limit your discussion to the distinctive currently under discussion. So let's begin.

(1) PRIESTLY CONFESSION
"
Confess your sins TO ONE ANOTHER...so that you may be healed (James 5:16)."

Most evangelicals imagine that once they get their ticket punched to Heaven, post-baptismal sin is a minor issue because it is automatically forgiven by virtue of God's grace. So they presumptuously cheapen God's grace by ignoring His command to regularly confess their sins not just to God, but to each other. If they confess their sins at all, they do so in a cursory, vague, and generalized manner like, "Lord, forgive me all my sins." Unlike Catholics, they are unwilling to do the hard work of discerning introspection to penetrate their defense mechanisms and unearth the hidden sins they actually need to confess. Thus, they make a mockery of repentance! By contrast, Catholics are willing to air their dirty linen by confessing embarrassing sins to a priest. This is important because of the need for confidentiality and the need for a mature and discerning listening ear who can offer constructive feedback. In a local restaurant some time ago, I overheard 2 Catholics who had just returned from confession. They were discussing a book their priest had given them about how to recognize unknown sins and sins of omission. I felt like I was in the presence of true saints.

In the 19th century, Methodists required weekly confession of sins to each other in class meetings. As a result, in 1870 Methodist spirituality was so powerful that 40% of all Americans were Methodist! Then around 1900, they were no longer willing to air their dirty linen and Methodism has endured a slow steady decline ever since.

 

[Berserk]

(2) PRIESTLY ABSOLUTION

Most evangelicals view forgiveness solely as a direct transaction between the confessing believer and God with no human mediation. So they freeze like Bambi in the headlights when confronted by Jesus' teaching that church leaders must play an active role in mediating divine forgiveness:

"Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained (John 20:23)."

Church leaders have the authority ("the keys of the kingdom of heaven") to determine who is entitled to enter the kingdom of heaven on the basis of who is and is not forgiven for their sins:

"I will give you [Peter!] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:19)."

Of course, only God can ultimately forgive sins. So the believers' authority to either forgive sins or decline to do so is based on their correct discernment of the sincerity of the confessor's repentance and, as John 20:23 implies, the Holy Spirit imparts this discernment.

So why is regular Catholic confession and priestly absolution an upgrade over standard evangelical practice?
(1) First, because it takes biblical teaching seriously that evangelicals ignore.
(2) Second, because the need to confess sins to a priest and thus subject oneself to priestly discernment is a powerful incentive to do some serious introspection to uncover unknown or ignored sins and sins of omission. Without such monitoring, evangelicals tend to either ignore the need for regular confession of sins or to confess their sins to God in a rather hasty and cavalier manner. As Socrates famously said, "The unexamined life is not woerth living."

 

[marks]

(1) priestly confession

Required to be saved? That's been my understanding of CC teaching. Is that correct? This is considered sacramental, and as such, is a required act?

post-baptismal sin is a minor issue

That sounds presumptive to me. Certainly I don't see sin as a minor thing, nor repentance as something light.

But I find justification in the cross, not the confessional. That's Biblical, and I can just as easily level the same accusation to someone who disagrees, that they just don't want to get into the Scriptures enough. I'm not saying that's you, and you don't need to say that's me.

Confess your sins one to another . . . but one of those .... must .... be .... a .... priest .... ? That is the part that is not in the Bible.

nlike Catholics, they are unwilling to do the hard work of discerning introspection to penetrate their defense mechanisms and unearth the hidden sins they actually need to confess.

You make a mockery of my relationship with Jesus. That's how it comes across. Because I don't include one of your priests. Because I have the temerity to boldy approach my great High Priest.

I'll leave it at this.

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

So why is regular Catholic confession and priestly absolution an upgrade over standard evangelical practice?

You may imagine that this is so, but you really have no solid grounds for your Catholic priesthood, and the absolution of sins through human priests (who themselves many be sinning before coming to the confessional). Sinners cannot absolve other sinners. Only God can do that. So your priests are usurping the position of God! Just like your pope is usurping the position of Christ. And Mary is also usurping the position of Christ. So what we have is a very serious violation of the prerogatives of God and Christ. This is false Christianity.

 

[Berserk]

Enoch: "You may imagine that this is so, but you really have no solid grounds for your Catholic priesthood,"

"Your Catholic priesthood?" LOL, I'm not even Catholic; I'm evangelical--and I have even successfully sued the Catholic church. I'm just
pointing out their superior understanding of God's Word on key issues. The NT teaches the priesthood of all believers, but it also teaches a church hierarchy of bishops. presbyters, and deacons. The pope is the bishop of Rome. For this thread it is irrelevant who hears confessions so long as a mature Christian performs this role. But the need for confidentiality and mature discernment argues for a church leader like a priest as the authoritative listener and pronouncer of absolution.

Enoch: "and the absolution of sins through human priests...Sinners cannot absolve other sinners. Only God can do that. So your priests are usurping the position of God!"

Jesus says the contrary in John 20:23 and Matthew 16:19! And your fundamentalist bias has blinded you to the force of these texts. Jesus teaches the importance of human mediation of divine forgiveness through the pronouncement of absolution. So deal with it!

 

[Enoch111]

But the need for confidentiality and mature discernment argues for a church leader like a priest as the authoritative listener and pronouncer of absolution.

Since the Catholic priesthood is rife with sexual sins, you have even less of an argument. We do not even know the full extent of fornication, homosexuality and pedophilia in this group of perverts. So why don't you do some "investigative journalism", enter the priesthood covertly, and check out what is happening behind the scenes. You might even get a chance to do some "absolution"!

 

[Berserk]

Since the Catholic priesthood is rife with sexual sins, you have even less of an argument. We do not even know the full extent of fornication, homosexuality and pedophilia in this group of perverts. So why don't you do some "investigative journalism", enter the priesthood covertly, and check out what is happening behind the scenes. You might even get a chance to do some "absolution"!

In the evangelical church of my youth no less than 3 pastors got on trouble for inappropriate sexual behavior! Fundamentalist sexual misconduct is appallingly common, but irrelevant to the merits or lack of same of their theology. You are committing 2 standard fallacies of apologists untrained in logic:
(1) the use of ad hominens as an excuse to avoid the biblical issues in question; (2) the bigotry of judging a whole movement by its worst exemplars. In logic that's called "the fallacy of hasty generalization." Now let's actually get into the Word! Kindly season your penchant for bluster with a modicum of intellectual rigor and address the arguments from the cited texts.

 

[Berserk]

marks: "Required to be saved? That's been my understanding of CC teaching. Is that correct? This is considered sacramental, and as such, is a required act? I find justification in the cross, not the confessional. That's Biblical"

Hope! Regular confession is not optional if one wants God's forgiveness: "If we confess our sins, He who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). And James 5:16 makes it clear that regular Christian confession is a necessary condition for spiritual and physical healing. as a lifelong evangelical, I realize that. practically speaking, regular soul-searching with a view to confession is a relatively low priority.

Do you actually believe that once I profess my faith in the Gospel I get my ticket punched to heaven, so that it no longer matters whether I continue in sin or seek to identify and confess that sin? The Bible teaches that sin separates us from God: "If we sin willfully persist in sin after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:"If26)."
"If you say you have faith but don't have works, can faith save you (James 2:14)?" Answer: Of course not!

marks: "Confess your sins one to another . . . but one of those .... must .... be .... a .... priest .... ? That is the part that is not in the Bible."
No, but it's a legitmate application of Scripture, since priests are Catholic leaders and the listener needs to be a Christian who respects confidentiality and has mature discernment.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Nonsense and more nonsense.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You may imagine that this is so, but you really have no solid grounds for your Catholic priesthood, and the absolution of sins through human priests (who themselves many be sinning before coming to the confessional). Sinners cannot absolve other sinners. Only God can do that. So your priests are usurping the position of God! Just like your pope is usurping the position of Christ. And Mary is also usurping the position of Christ. So what we have is a very serious violation of the prerogatives of God and Christ. This is false Christianity.

Sooooo, Jesus - who is GOD, by the way - cannot transfer power to whomever He wishes??
Time for a Bible Lesson . . .
John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent ME, so I send YOU.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

Question: WHAT sis the Father send the Son to do?
Answer: To bring about the FORGIVENESS of sin.
In rhis passage - Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive OR retain sins in His name.

There are only TWO places in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:
1. When He breathes LIFE into Adam (Gen. 2:7).
2. Here in John 20:21-23, where He gives His inner circle the power to forgive or retain sins.

Paul makes NO small case for this ministry of reconciliation clearly in 2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. WE implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states,
“Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been FOR you in the presence of Christ”

The Greek word used here for "Presence" is "Prosopne" - which means "PERSON". They were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ - by HIS Authority in John 20:21-23.
In Latin, this is referred to as, "In Persona Christi".

Since the Catholic priesthood is rife with sexual sins, you have even less of an argument. We do not even know the full extent of fornication, homosexuality and pedophilia in this group of perverts. So why don't you do some "investigative journalism", enter the priesthood covertly, and check out what is happening behind the scenes. You might even get a chance to do some "absolution"!

This nonsense is a prime example of why I am here.
Why is it that you guy cannot simply disagree with Catholic teachingwithout making idiotic and hypocritical comments like this?

In his book, Pedophiles and Priests, Protestant authori Philip Jenkins lays out the statistical facts about the sex abuse that went on in the Catholic Church - AND companres it with the sexual abuse that goes on in the PROTESTANT sects. His concluded that there is FAR MORE abuse within Protestantism that goes unreported.

The reason for this?? Because, whereas every Catholic parish is insured - MANT smaller Protestant communities are NOT. So it's a matter of where the lawyers will make more money.

So, clean up your OWN bak yard before you point fingers at the Catholic Church . . .

Evangelicals ‘worse’ than Catholics on sexual abuse
Evangelical Sex Abuse Record ‘Worse’ Than Catholic, Says Billy Graham’s Grandson
Protestants can no longer dismiss abuse as a ‘Catholic problem’
Child Sex Abuse More Prevalent Among Protestants Than Among Catholics
There Is More Sexual Abuse In The Protestant Churches Than Catholic
Catholic priests no guiltier of sex abuse than other clergy
Data Shed Light on Child Sexual Abuse by Protestant Clergy
Blogger Who Exposed Protestant Sex Abuse Cover Up Sued By Her Pastor
Denial About Sexual Abuse In Evangelical Churches
Southern Baptists Apologize For Sex Abuse Coverups
U.S. Protestants’ Views Mixed about Extent of Clergy Sexual Abuse
Churchgoers Split on Existence of More Sexual Abuse by Pastors
Confronting Evangelical Enabling of Sexual Abuse
Child abuse a Calvinist problem, podcast says

 

[BreadOfLife]

Nonsense and more nonsense.

That's your favorite hit-and-run mantra - but NEVER an explanation as to WHY . . .

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Man cannot absolve other men of sin. You catholics have such terribly wrong theology.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Man cannot absolve other men of sin. You catholics have such terribly wrong theology.

Apparently, you didn't read post #10, where I ;aid out a Scriptural argument for this.

Why don't you read it - then give me a sound Scriptural refutation instead of your usual hit-and-run denials.
I'll waith right here for your well-researched response . . .

 

[marks]

marks: "Required to be saved? That's been my understanding of CC teaching. Is that correct? This is considered sacramental, and as such, is a required act? I find justification in the cross, not the confessional. That's Biblical"

Hope! Regular confession is not optional if one wants God's forgiveness: "If we confess our sins, He who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). And James 5:16 makes it clear that regular Christian confession is a necessary condition for spiritual and physical healing. as a lifelong evangelical, I realize that. practically speaking, regular soul-searching with a view to confession is a relatively low priority.

Do you actually believe that once I profess my faith in the Gospel I get my ticket punched to heaven, so that it no longer matters whether I continue in sin or seek to identify and confess that sin? The Bible teaches that sin separates us from God: "If we sin willfully persist in sin after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:"If26)."
"If you say you have faith but don't have works, can faith save you (James 2:14)?" Answer: Of course not!

marks: "Confess your sins one to another . . . but one of those .... must .... be .... a .... priest .... ? That is the part that is not in the Bible."
No, but it's a legitmate application of Scripture, since priests are Catholic leaders and the listener needs to be a Christian who respects confidentiality and has mature discernment.

My understanding is that CC requires confession to a priest or you are not saved. Isn't that so?

as a lifelong evangelical, I realize that. practically speaking, regular soul-searching with a view to confession is a relatively low priority.

That may be for you, but do you just assume that because I'm not confessing to a Catholic priest that I just blithely go through my life without a concern for sin?

What gives you the right or basis to assume that's how I am?? Or anyone else?

But again, isn't this sacramental to them? IF you don't do it, you are not saved?

Regular confession is not optional if one wants God's forgiveness

Your salvation must be obtained anew with each sin, apparently, and I wonder, given as we have limited understanding and knowledge, how can you be sure to capture each one?

Much love!

 

[BreadOfLife]

My understanding is that CC requires confession to a priest or you are not saved. Isn't that so?

as a lifelong evangelical, I realize that. practically speaking, regular soul-searching with a view to confession is a relatively low priority.

That may be for you, but do you just assume that because I'm not confessing to a Catholic priest that I just blithely go through my life without a concern for sin?

What gives you the right or basis to assume that's how I am?? Or anyone else?

But again, isn't this sacramental to them? IF you don't do it, you are not saved?
Much love!

No - your understanding is incorrect.

A Catholic is required to confess to a priest if he has committed a mortal sin.
Mortal sin involved grave matter, full knowledge and full consent.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It does make one wonder about the efficacy of their disciplines!

Much love!

Does it make one "wonder" about the efficacy of Protestant disciplines - given the evidence I presented in post #10?

 

[marks]

No - your understanding is incorrect.

A Catholic is required to confess to a priest if he has committed a mortal sin.
Mortal sin involved grave matter, full knowledge and full consent.

Thank you! I don't like having the wrong ideas.

Which sins require confession?

Much love!

 

[marks]

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent ME, so I send YOU.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

That of course was them. Do the apostles breath the Holy Spirit into others? I've never seen that in the Bible.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Does it make one "wonder" about the efficacy of Protestant disciplines - given the evidence I presented in post #10?

You're right, I apologize. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and my goose just got sauced!



I deleted the post. Sorry!

Much love!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thank you! I don't like having the wrong ideas.

Which sins require confession?

Much love!

Like I said - Mortal sin which involves grave matter, full knowledge and full consent.
Grabe matter can involve any violation of the Commandments - depending on the severity.

For example - stealing a pencil from work wouldn't be grave matter.
However, embezzling large sums pof money would probaby be grave matter. Murder, adultery, fornication - even gossip, depemnding on the severuty.