The Biblical Basis for Catholic Distinctives

[BreadOfLife]

You're right, I apologize. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and my goose just got sauced!



I deleted the post. Sorry!

Much love!

That's very charitable of you.
I have NO problrm discussing differebces between Cathollic and Protestant teachings - but we should try to stay focused on being truthful.

Thanks.

 

[marks]

but we should try to stay focused on being truthful.

Do you consider me to be dishonest? Why has truthfulness suddenly made an appearance?

?

 

[BreadOfLife]

That of course was them. Do the apostles breath the Holy Spirit into others? I've never seen that in the Bible.

Much love!

I have a better question:
Can you show me a SINGLE ministry in the OT or NT that wasn't successive?

The OT Levitival (inisterial) priesthoos was successive.
The same if true for the NT Ministerial proesthood.

In the Old Testament, there were THREE levels of Priests:
- The High Priest
- The Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood
- The rest of the people were a general priesthood of believers.

In the New Testament, there are also THREE levels of Priests:
- Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25)
- The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15)
- The general priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

Just as with all New Testament fulfillments, the fulfillment is always more glorious than the Old Testament type.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Do you consider me to be dishonest? Why has truthfulness suddenly made an appearance?
?

No - so far, you have been charitable.
I was speaking generally.

I see a LOT of dishonesty here - especially when it comes to Catholic-bashing.
You were honest enough to retract your statement.

 

[marks]

Like I said - Mortal sin which involves grave matter, full knowledge and full consent.
Grabe matter can involve any violation of the Commandments - depending on the severity.

For example - stealing a pencil from work wouldn't be grave matter.
However, embezzling large sums pof money would probaby be grave matter. Murder, adultery, fornication - even gossip, depemnding on the severuty.

What would the difference be between stealing 1 dollar or a million dollars? Murder, and adultery, does that include only the overt act? Or lusting with the eyes? Hating in the heart?

What if I were to steal the only dollar a widow has, on her way to by a scrap of food to eat, compared to stealing a million dollars from Jeff Betos? Do you understand what I'm asking? How does one sin differ from another in whether it brings condemnation or not? Are you saying some sins are OK with God, and other sins not? That we can just overlook, ignore the "little stuff"?

I don't mean to sound rude, only blunt, to make the point.

But seriously . . . to my understanding, all sin is the work of our corrupt flesh, without exception.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I have a better question:
Can you show me a SINGLE ministry in the OT or NT that wasn't successive?

The OT Levitival (inisterial) priesthoos was successive.
The same if true for the NT Ministerial proesthood.

In the Old Testament, there were THREE levels of Priests:
- The High Priest
- The Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood
- The rest of the people were a general priesthood of believers.

In the New Testament, there are also THREE levels of Priests:
- Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25)
- The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15)
- The general priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

Just as with all New Testament fulfillments, the fulfillment is always more glorious than the Old Testament type.

Prove a negative? Generally not.

The OT priesthood was originated on familial succession. But there is no succession of "pope" or something like that in the Bible. Can you prove there is?

Its just like anything else, you cannot prove there are no octopi living in outerspace (I'll bet there aren't), because you cannot observe all of outer space. But if there is one you can observe, then you can prove there is at least one. You can prove the positive, you cannot prove the negative, unless your scope if very limited.

The OT priesthood was to bridge the separation sin brought, but in Christ, we are no longer separated from God. Yes, this is much more glorious!

There is no succession of priesthood in the NT.

Much love!

 

[BreadOfLife]

What would the difference be between stealing 1 dollar or a million dollars? Murder, and adultery, does that include only the overt act? Or lusting with the eyes? Hating in the heart?

What if I were to steal the only dollar a widow has, on her way to by a scrap of food to eat, compared to stealing a million dollars from Jeff Betos? Do you understand what I'm asking? How does one sin differ from another in whether it brings condemnation or not? Are you saying some sins are OK with God, and other sins not? That we can just overlook, ignore the "little stuff"?

I don't mean to sound rude, only blunt, to make the point.

But seriously . . . to my understanding, all sin is the work of our corrupt flesh, and all sin is from death, to death, without exception.

Much love!

Like I siad - the severity must be taking into consideration.

Yes, stealing a person's last dollar can be as severe as taking a million dollars gtom a rich man. Same with sex/lust, murder/self defense and every other occasion of sin or wrongdoing.
Gossipping about what you think about someone's haircut - and spreading gossip about what you heard regarding them cheating on their spouse can be completey different matters.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

to my understanding, all sin is the work of our corrupt flesh, and all sin is from death, to death, without exception.

Correct, because Biblically, God Teaches:

Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[marks]

I have a better question:
Can you show me a SINGLE ministry in the OT or NT that wasn't successive?

Melchizedeck

After whom Jesus' priesthood was patterned.

Much love!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Prove a negative? Generally not.

The OT priesthood was originated on familial succession. But there is no succession of "pope" or something like that in the Bible. Can you prove there is?

Its just like anything else, you cannot prove there are no octopi living in outerspace (I'll bet there aren't), because you cannot observe all of outer space. But if there is one you can observe, then you can prove there is at least one. You can prove the positive, you cannot prove the negative, unless your scope if very limited.

The OT priesthood was to bridge the separation sin brought, but in Christ, we are no longer separated from God. Yes, this is much more glorious!

There is no succession of priesthood in the NT.

Much love!

My lunch is over - and I have to get back to work now.
I will give you a full explanation in a couple of hours when I get off.

Talk to you them . . .

 

[marks]

Like I siad - the severity must be taking into consideration.

Yes, stealing a person's last dollar can be as severe as taking a million dollars gtom a rich man. Same with sex/lust, murder/self defense and every other occasion of sin or wrongdoing.
Gossipping about what you think about someone's haircut - and spreading gossip about what you heard regarding them cheating on their spouse can be completey different matters.

This being the case, how do you know which sins require confession, and which don't? How CAN we know?

And aren't they all in reality the exact same thing at the core? Disobedience to God in service to the flesh? Well, that's how I see it anyway! All sin is fully condemned by God. Sin kills, period.

I appreciate your correction though, I never want to misrepresent someone.

Much love!

 

[Berserk]

marks: "My understanding is that CC requires confession to a priest or you are not saved. Isn't that so?"

Nope, Catholics are content to let God be the Judge. Catholicism even has a concept of "anonymous Christians" according to which righteous pagans might be saved apart from the absence of a formal profession of faith in Christ. btw, the evangelical pastor of my youth shared this concept, despite his weekly Sunday evening evangelistic services, complete with altar calls. but Catholics are concerned to please God and meet the biblical conditions for spiritual healing and divine forgiveness. I speak as an evangelical theology professor who was a member of a theology department at a Catholic univeristy for 12 years.


Berserk: "as a lifelong evangelical, I realize that. practically speaking, regular soul-searching with a view to confession is a relatively low priority."

marks: "That may be for you, but do you just assume that because I'm not confessing to a Catholic priest that I just blithely go through my life without a concern for sin? "
Duh, where do I comment on YOU specifically? That's your misreading of my posts. For all I know, you moonlight as an axe murderer!
And you overlook the huge distinction between ""concern for sin" and the regular discipline of guided introspection with a view to discovering unrecognized or unconscious sin and sins of omission.

marks" "What gives you the right or basis to assume that's how I am?? Or anyone else?"
(1) many years of experience as an evangelical pastor and Bible study discussion leader!
(2) listening to countless testimonies in church and noticing that there is seldom a reference to confession of specific sins.

marks: "I wonder, given as we have limited understanding and knowledge [of our sin], how can you be sure to capture each one?"

So you don't think it is important to obey the confessional requirement of James 5:16 because we might miss some sins? On the contrary, Catholics view this problem as a good reason to honor the discipline of regular soul-searching motivated by regular accountability to the priestly confesional. Your wondering illustrates why some evangelicals in my town have fled their evangelical churches to drink in the deeper spirituality of our local Catholic church!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Melchizedeck
After whom Jesus' priesthood was patterned.

Much love!

Sooooo, what makes you think that Catholics believe that Jesus’s Authority is successive?

Jesus is ALSO out High Priest (Heb. 14:14-16), modeled after the High Priest according to the Mosaic Law. He is the FULFILLMENT of the Law (Matt. 5:17).

Jesus doesn’t just fulfill one or two of the OT types regarding Him
He fulfills them ALL.

 

[BreadOfLife]

This being the case, how do you know which sins require confession, and which don't? How CAN we know?

And aren't they all in reality the exact same thing at the core? Disobedience to God in service to the flesh? Well, that's how I see it anyway! All sin is fully condemned by God. Sin kills, period.

I appreciate your correction though, I never want to misrepresent someone.

Much love!

This is a tough question for Protestants because of your rejextion of God-given Authority.
As the Bible admionishes us - there IS a hierarchy within the Church and there ARE those who are"over us" in Christ:

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Cor. 12:28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, FIRST, apostles; SECOND, prophets; THIRD, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.

As for HOW we know which sis are Mortal and which are Venial - Christ left is with a CHURCH to teach us (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Matt. 28:19, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15). He did NOT leave us as orphans (John 14:18) in total chaos.

- Minor (venial) sin damages our relationship with God. The Bible calls this "sin that does NOT lead to death".
- Grave (mortal) sin severs that relationship. The Bible refers to it as “sin that leads to death”.

1 John 5:17
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

 

[marks]

This is a tough question for Protestants because of your rejextion of God-given Authority.
As the Bible admionishes us - there IS a hierarchy within the Church and there ARE those who are"over us" in Christ:

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Cor. 12:28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, FIRST, apostles; SECOND, prophets; THIRD, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.

As for HOW we know which sis are Mortal and which are Venial - Christ left is with a CHURCH to teach us (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Matt. 28:19, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15). He did NOT leave us as orphans (John 14:18) in total chaos.

- Minor (venial) sin damages our relationship with God. The Bible calls this "sin that does NOT lead to death".
- Grave (mortal) sin severs that relationship. The Bible refers to it as “sin that leads to death”.

1 John 5:17
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

So then the church will tell you which are mortal and which are venial. And mortal sin severs your relationship with God, and must be confessed to a priest, and receive priestly absolution (I know we haven't talked about that yet), to restore relationship, is that the correct understanding?

So the reasonable thinking to me is that sins would need to be confessed in detail to the priest, so he could help sort which may be mortal and which venial. Again, am I thinking on the right path here?

Much love!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Prove a negative? Generally not.

I didn't ask you to prove a negatve.
I asked you to show me a ministry in the OT or NT that wasn't successive.

The OT priesthood was originated on familial succession. But there is no succession of "pope" or something like that in the Bible. Can you prove there is?

Its just like anything else, you cannot prove there are no octopi living in outerspace (I'll bet there aren't), because you cannot observe all of outer space. But if there is one you can observe, then you can prove there is at least one. You can prove the positive, you cannot prove the negative, unless your scope if very limited.

The OT priesthood was to bridge the separation sin brought, but in Christ, we are no longer separated from God. Yes, this is much more glorious!

There is no succession of priesthood in the NT.

Much love!

Apostpolic Succession CAN be proven in the Bible.

In Acts 1 - 120 members of Jesus's inner circle, which included the Apostles gathered to chose a successor for Judas. This was NOT a mere "replacement", as we see i verse 20, where it says:
"Let another take his office."

The Greek word used here for "office" is "Episkopay", which means "Bishopric".
Judas held the office of BISHOP.

Another interesting BIBLICAL fact about the120 men . . .
OT - On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).

NT - On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).

The 120 men who chose Judas's successor were thew FULFILLMENT of the 120 ministerial Priests in the OT.

 

[marks]

I didn't ask you to prove a negatve.
I asked you to show me a ministry in the OT or NT that wasn't successive.

Melchezedeck

And all the others, with the exception of Judas.

Where else do you see someone chosen to fill another person's vacant spot? I'm not saying we don't do that for instance with a group of elders in a church, if one leaves, we may choose another. But we may also choose another if the church grows, or, we may not chose to replace a leaving elder if the church has become smaller. It's not a matter of succession per se, it's simply proper ministry.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The Greek word used here for "office" is "Episkopay", which means "Bishopric".

If by bishop you mean 'overseer', yes.

Another was appointed to take his place, in having witnessed Jesus' ministry and death and resurrection.

Are you saying after Matthias died, someone else was chosen for his place, so there were always 12, continuing to today?

When Stephen was stoned, another was chosen for the 7 deacons, so that those 7 continue today? How far do you apply this? Or is it just to Peter and the pope?

Much love!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Nope, Catholics are content to let God be the Judge.

Precious friend, rcc catechism could have fooled me:

"Is the Church necessary for salvation?
Answered By: Gregory Long Date: created: Aug 15 2021
The Church IS necessary for salvation because as Catholics we believe it’s in the church that we most fully encounter Christ, Where he is most present. Christ instituted the church and it’s the visible organization through which he gives us grace, truth and salvation."
+
Apparently, THIS catholic, Tim Staples, is NOT content
To Let God "Be The Judge," since he recently Insists:

"The Catholic Church teaches infallibly, “extra ecclesiam nulla salus,” or, “OUTSIDE the Church there is NO salvation.” But as with all dogmas of the Faith, this has to be qualified and understood properly. The Catechism of the Catholic Church lays out the truth of the matter succinctly in paragraphs 846-848, but I would recommend backing up to CCC 830 for a context that will help in understanding these three essential points concerning this teaching:

1. There is no salvation apart from Christ AND his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Again, this is an infallible teaching and not up for debate among Catholics."

Doesn't sound like "content to let God Be The Judge," IF "the church" saves you.

What Saith The Scripture?:

Act 4:10 "...By The Name Of Jesus Christ..."

Act 4:12 ...Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none
other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

So, which is it? + WHO Is the Mediator?

1Ti 2:5 For there is One God, and ONE Mediator between God and men,
The Man CHRIST JESUS;

So, which is it? + WHO Is The Head?:

1Co_11:3 But I would have you know, that The Head of every man Is CHRIST;
and the head of the woman is the man; and The Head Of CHRIST is God.

So, which is it? God's ETERNAL Salvation "By JESUS CHRIST," OR:

by "some OTHER name"? God's Simple Will!

Conclusion: Yes, Absolutely! "God IS The JUDGE," According To The Scriptures!!

Some of us, outside of rcc, are content; rcc folks inside, are you Really content?

 

[Berserk]

Grace, if you want to criticize Catholicism criticize them for having too large a tent.
Not only do Catholics believe that believers outside the Catholic church can be saved; they even believe in the possibility of being an "anonymous Christian," that is a redeemed righteous pagan who doesn't even believe in Jesus. I was an evangelical professor in a Catholic theology department at a Catholic university for 12 years.