The Biblical Doctrine of Penal Substitution

[marks]

So it was not necessary "instead of us" but "for us"?

There's the question, isn't it?

Jesus gave Himself to suffer the temporal physical death that He did not deserve so that we would not suffer the eternal death that we do deserve.

Death is the penalty for sin. Jesus didn't sin, yet he died - for - us, not to save us from physical death, but to save us from the wrath to come.

There was more to Jesus' death than identification with man. In His death we die, and we live in His resurrection. There was a rescue performed through Jesus' accepting to Himself the penalty for sin, death, but part of that rescue has more to do with than providing us an escape hatch.

Behold the Lamb of God Who carries away the sin of the world.

God has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all.

Let me ask you this.

How was it that Jesus bore away the sin of the world? What was it Jesus did, or that happened, to remove all our sins?

Much love!

 

[John Caldwell]

There's the question, isn't it?

Jesus gave Himself to suffer the temporal physical death that He did not deserve so that we would not suffer the eternal death that we do deserve.

Death is the penalty for sin. Jesus didn't sin, yet he died - for - us, not to save us from physical death, but to save us from the wrath to come.

There was more to Jesus' death than identification with man. In His death we die, and we live in His resurrection. There was a rescue performed through Jesus' accepting to Himself the penalty for sin, death, but part of that rescue has more to do with than providing us an escape hatch.

Behold the Lamb of God Who carries away the sin of the world.

God has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all.

Let me ask you this.

How was it that Jesus bore away the sin of the world? What was it Jesus did, or that happened, to remove all our sins?

Much love!

You explained very well how it was that Jesus bore away the sin of the world when you answered my question about suffering (only I would have taken it a step farther).

I believe that Jesus became a curse for us (bore the sin of mankind, human sin, our sin) in his suffering and death in the act of the Incarnation through the Resurrection. The difference is whether or not Jesus "bore our sins" in the context of "sharing in our infirmity" to deliver us through death or in the context of "instead of us" so that we would bear them. Our answer here depends on how we view our sins being forgiven.

Were we forgiven of all of our sins when Jesus died on the cross? Penal Substitution Theory says absolutely (hence the issue of the scope of the atonement). I do not believe so. I believe that Christ intercedes for us (as we go through this life) and we confess, repent, and are forgiven. The basis is the Cross as it is our ransom, the price paid for us, and Christ as the Propitiation for the sins of the world.

 

[marks]

I believe that Jesus became a curse for us

Hi John,

I think this is the heart of the matter of penal substitution. We were cursed, but are not any longer, because Jesus took that curse instead of us.

Were we forgiven of all of our sins when Jesus died on the cross? Penal Substitution Theory says absolutely (hence the issue of the scope of the atonement). I do not believe so. I believe that Christ intercedes for us (as we go through this life) and we confess, repent, and are forgiven.

On this part we will most heartily disagree.

Were we forgiven of all of our sins when Jesus died on the cross?

Yes we were.

Condemnation and guilt are not negotiable.

If you are guilty and condemned for sin, that includes all sin. All sin is of the flesh. Even the sins you are not aware of. Even the sins you forget. Even the sins that you don't yet realize are sin.

Much love!

 

[John Caldwell]

Hi John,

I think this is the heart of the matter of penal substitution. We were curse, but are not any longer, because Jesus took that curse instead of us.



On this part we will most heartily disagree.

Were we forgiven of all of our sins when Jesus died on the cross?

Yes we were.

Condemnation and guilt are not negotiable.

If you are guilty and condemned for sin, that includes all sin. All sin is of the flesh. Even the sins you are not aware of. Even the sins you forget. Even the sins that you don't yet realize are sin.

Much love!

I agree mostly (I would say Christ became a curse for us rather than He took the curse instead of us).

Were we forgiven all of our sins when Jesus died on the cross? No.

Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the world. In Him there is no condemnation.

This is is what Scripture says: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations.

We need forgiveness today. We need to repent today. There is no condemnation in Christ. But this is a constant thing. He is our High Priest (present tense), He is our Mediator, and He is our Savior. He is faithful to forgive.

 

[marks]

Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the world.

Hi John,

A question on this . . . when you say this above, what does propitiation mean to you? Generally I hear this word used speaking of appeasment. Is that your understanding?

Much love!

 

[marks]

We need forgiveness today. We need to repent today. There is no condemnation in Christ. But this is a constant thing. He is our High Priest (present tense), He is our Mediator, and He is our Savior. He is faithful to forgive.

How could it be that we require forgiveness, yet there is no condemnation? Aren't these contrary to each other?

Forgiveness is to remove condemnation, is it not?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Were we forgiven all of our sins when Jesus died on the cross? No.

Mark 3:28 "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: "

This of course does not include vilifying the Holy Spirit, as the Pharisees call the Holy Spirit an unclean spirit.

What does this mean to you, that all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men?

Was not Jesus indeed "the Lamb of God that bears away the sin of the world"?

Much love!

 

[John Caldwell]

Hi Marks,

These are good questions. I hope you don't mind but I'm going to answer in one post.

Mark 3:28 "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: "

This of course does not include vilifying the Holy Spirit, as the Pharisees call the Holy Spirit an unclean spirit.

What does this mean to you, that all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men?

Was not Jesus indeed "the Lamb of God that bears away the sin of the world"?

Much love!

Propitiation is defined as the act of gaining or regaining the favor or goodwill of something or someone, or something that propitiates or appeases.

The word propitiation has different meanings depending on the context. I love studying ANE religion and Greek mythology. In that context propitiation can be viewed as an appeasement because they viewed sacrifice as appeasing their gods to avoid an unfavorable situation. Their gods were able to be appeased or manipulated by man.

In Christian thought I believe God cannot be manipulated. What changes is not God but man. So I believe propitiation in this context is the act of gaining or regaining the favor or good will of God. By definition I believe it has in view the disfavor or “badwill” in view and should always be understood as something (or Someone) in which or through which wrath towards us is turned aside.

How could it be that we require forgiveness, yet there is no condemnation? Aren't these contrary to each other?

Forgiveness is to remove condemnation, is it not?

Much love!

I am not sure what you mean by how can it be that we require forgiveness yet there is no condemnation. When we "walk in darkness" or "sin" we yield to the flesh. This is not "walking in light", "fleeing sin", and yielding to the Spirit. Those things that are of Christ are not of the flesh, they are not of this world.

Repentance and belief is not a one time event (much less a one time event that happened over two thousand years ago) but a life long process. As Christians we should wear out that path to the Throne.

I think it important to remember that this was written to believers: If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

Mark 3:28 "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: "

This of course does not include vilifying the Holy Spirit, as the Pharisees call the Holy Spirit an unclean spirit.

What does this mean to you, that all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men?

Was not Jesus indeed "the Lamb of God that bears away the sin of the world"?

Much love!

What I believe Scripture means with this passage is that all sins shall be forgiven mankind. The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son. On the Cross God was reconciling the World to Himself, not counting man's sins against them but forgiving mankind. Yet there remains a ministry of reconciliation. Mankind has been reconciled to God through Christ. Men need to be reconciled to God through Christ.

Do you believe that Christ suffered the punishment for your sins on the Cross, satisfying the debt you owed?

If so, do we really need to be "born again", made new creations, repent, believe, or be forgiven?

Do you believe that you and I were born under a state of condemnation?