The Born Again = Have No Sin.
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Nothing will disagree or conflict if correctly understood, so a correct understanding - given by the Holy Spirit, make no mistake, I'm not saying anything different - a correct understanding will not require to you revisit another passage with the notion that, though it says THIS, it actually means THAT, as required by this other passage. That shows a misunderstanding.
We need to be able to accept all the words of Scripture in their own rights. You cannot, at least so it seems to me, claim a spiritual understanding of Scripture, that overturns what the Bible actually says.
Hopefully that will clarify what I am saying here.
Much love!
Easy! The Bible gives us an example.
Luke 2:1 reads:
"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed."
In those days I believe China already existed as a nation amongst the nations of the world. Were they also subject to taxation?? Of course NOT!! The idea here is only those nations that Rome has conquered at that time are to be taxed.
Same idea as John 12:32. There the word "men" is italicized, meaning it's not in the original manuscripts in the KJV Bible.
Plus the word "all" are those whom the Father elected / chosen in eternity past, before the foundation of the world.
To God Be The Glory
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No misunderstanding!! Most Christians do not understand Bible doctrines and its' interpretations!!!
I agree.
However, Jesus spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak (Mark 4:34). A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning.
Hopefully the above will clarify what the Bible is saying here.
To God Be The Glory
OK, so you explain them by denying the full meaning. Because you see another passage that to you can't mean what it says, or that you think it's context modifies the meaning of the word "all". So then you go to this different passage and say, That doesn't actually mean "all" either.
I don't play that way myself, so we will not reach agreement. Each in it's own context. And don't be so quick to think you know better than the Bible.
What makes you think the Caesar didn't decree that all the world be taxed? Is that so ridiculous to you?? Those guys thought they were gods, why do you find it so impossible for that verse to be true, that you then go and use your personal conclusion on this point to overturn the meaning of other passages?
To then go on to deny Jesus' words, I will draw all men to myself? Why do you imagine He said this? He'd already said, only those the Father drew would come. Why make a different statement? Why give a time references? Why speak as though it's true? But more to the point, why not believe it? I do.
Is it that you think that because Caesar (as you suppose) used language in an imprecise way, that others, Jesus, did also?
You say, Jesus didn't mean "all" because Caesar couldn't (I just know it) have meant "all". I simply do not find that valid reasoning.
Much love!
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People will believe anything if they don't know what is the subject matter that are being discussed.
Let's say you are correct about John 12:32 that the term "I will draw all men to myself" means "each and every men" how then will you account that the Bible stipulates hell will heavily be populated, that is there will be many people in hell.
Now can you see that Jesus could not have meant "all men" but rather "all those" that the Father elected and given to Jesus before the foundation of the world!!
To God Be The Glory
"draw all to myself" is not equal to "cause all to be born again."
I certainly do not see why you read Him saying "this", but think He meant "that". Except that it makes more sense to you that way. It makes perfectly good sense to me to read it exactly like Jesus said it.
I believe the very words He spoke, it seems you do not, because it doesn't make sense to you.
Much love!
According to Romans 8:1-13, the context reveals depends on the choices one makes.
Whether, once again become carnal minded, whilst go after the things of the flesh, cum sin and face second death.
Or, being Spirit minded, whilst go after the things of the Spirit and mortify the deeds of the flesh, hence live and inherit eternal life.
When a person becomes born again he cannot lose his salvation and, he cannot sin, because he is born from above!!
To God Be The Glory
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Why not? Because it doesn't say so, and that's not what the words themselves mean.
I stick with what the Book actually states. When you start redefining words, you can end up wherever you choose to end up.
Much love!
You don't know me but just to let you know, I take everything in the Bible by faith. Even to those I don't understand.
To God Be The Glory
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True, as Jesus said, "Your sins are forgiven, sin no more, or something worst may happen to you." And, "Be ye perfect as your FATHER in Heaven is perfect."
A born again can lose one's salvation depending on the choices one make. Now, If one continue forth to become debtors of the flesh once again, therefore reap death.
For it is written, 'For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.'
Even if a born again live through the Spirit, one is required to mortify the deeds of their body, and then only they shall live. If that's not the case, Apostle Paul didn't have to caution the church in this very manner.
For Himself saying, and is written, 'Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.'
It is also written, "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of My FATHER which is in Heaven, Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
Apparently Jesus is referring to born again and gifted by the Holy Spirit, believers. For the record, unbelievers know not the Holy Spirit, nor can attain Him on their own.
Next, born again believers do sin, because is written, 'If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, HE is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make HIM a liar, and HIS word is not in us.'
Born again believers sin, because they fall short of being a 'doer' and 'abider' to the teaching of Lord Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
I disagree. If you want to learn why born again believers still sin, read Romans 7:14-25. These verses are self explanatory and they show us that our salvation come in two parts!!
To God Be The Glory
Ultimately all manner of sins are willful and are forgivable, except the unforgivable sin!!!
To God Be The Glory
You can disagree because you're stuck with by relating yourself in sin according to Romans ch. 7, as ii thought the same being a fresh born again believer. And, you have not since perceived forwarding to ch. 8, the freedom context to salvation, as i in further discipleship have moved pass it. As a result of those who've not, one is still in 'bondage' after the flesh by the Law of sin and death as in ch. 7, the first part. Therefore, apparently one is saved but not yet freed forwarding to the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus according to ch. 8, the second part.
Salvation without condemnation comes only in one part of being saved by the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ in ch. 8. Therefore one is freed from the bondage of the flesh and slave to sin, prior in ch. 7. Supposedly, saved believers walk no longer after the flesh in sin and death, since becoming born again of water and of Spirit. But rather now a new creation, supposedly after the mind and things of the Holy Spirit, and where they mortify the deeds of their body/flesh/carnal.
Now, even if believers fall short as doers and abiders to the word/teaching of Christ in the New Testament working out their salvation. As a result, the possibility to backslide after the flesh in sin and death once again according to Romans 8:13, is possible. Unless one realize scripturally, that 1 John 1:9 allows one's confession of their lawlessness/sin violating the teaching, where they can be forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.
Henceforth, they are clean to continue forward with the mind and things of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament by context. Hence, continue forth as doers and abiders to the word/teaching of Jesus Christ, once again to excellence. There's no excuse for ignorance if a believer continue after the mind and things of the flesh and keep on sinning, and hence use Romans ch. 7 as their refuge. As for it is written,
'For what the Law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh (ch. 7), GOD sending HIS own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh (ch.7); but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit (New Testament). For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against GOD: for it is not subject to the Law of GOD, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please GOD. ' (Romans 8:3-8)
There's only one way a believer can be set free from being flesh/body/carnal minded and its things, that we're in. For it is said by the Lord discipling the born again, especially His disciples, further likewise to make disciples of all nation. He said like this and is written;
"If ye continue in my word (teaching), then are ye My disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:31&32)
"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: .........................................................." (Matt 7:24&25)
"And every one that heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them not, shall be liken unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: ............................................................." (Matt 7:26&27)
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@Fred J
The end result of your post #75 comes down to these scripture verses:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Have I not said that man's salvation comes in two parts? One part is in his spirit essence where he cannot sin, and the other is in his body, which has not been born again/saved until Jesus resurrects his body on the last day. But he will continue to sin while in his body on this earth!
When a believer dies, in his spirit essence he goes to be with Christ in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8), while his body returns to the dust until it is resurrected on the last day!
To God Be The Glory
The end result of your post #75 comes down to these scripture verses:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Have I not said that man's salvation comes in two parts? One part is in his spirit essence where he cannot sin, and the other is in his body, which has not been born again/saved until Jesus resurrects his body on the last day. But he will continue to sin while in his body on this earth!
When a believer dies, in his spirit essence he goes to be with Christ in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8), while his body returns to the dust until it is resurrected on the last day!
To God Be The Glory
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Early scripture did not have chapter and verses, so you stop at verse 25 as the context. Therefore, you testify your salvation is in this context, as it is ok in the flesh you serve sin and in the spirit serve GOD.
A very well babes in Christ orchestrated 2 in 1 instant iideology to salvation and attain eternal life. On the contrary, it is merely 'true' when you stop at verse 25 alone, but not the context 'truth' continuing to chapter 8:1-13. There's only one part to salvation and move forth in the Spirit to live, and not in the flesh to serve sin and die.
To conclude, after you're saved you do sin, but if ye live through the Spirit in Christ, 'do mortify the deeds of the body, and ye shall live'.
One do not go to be with the Lord in heaven, but rather one is 'asleep' on the earthly realm. When only at the trumpet sound, the dead shall rise with the living, and at the blink of an eye they will all be changed. Then they will ascend to meet the Lord in the cloud, who will not step on earth.
And when Paul's mortal body is already buried and decayed to dust, how can it resurrect on the last day? Have you not read in the scripture that flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of GOD?
In that verse Paul is only saying that he is willing rather to leave this body and be in the presence of the Lord. He is not saying as you're mistakenly claiming, that once he leaves this body, he will be with the Lord.
For in verse 10, he says, for we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ. Now as according to you for example, Paul already gone to be with the Lord right? Therefore why is he saying, when being with the Lord, that he need to appear before the judgement seat of Christ?
