The Case for a Post-Tribulation Second Coming

[William Barton]

IMO believers are taken up by Jesus, as seen in Revelation, to avoid the bowl judgments. The bowl judgments IMO are Middle-Eastern, not global.

Jesus will also bring back to earth those whom he took up, along with other believers who were previously living in heaven.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Then what is Jesus doing in Revelation 14:14-16?
Maybe sun bathing?

Why do you insist on ignoring the Bible, and the job I did on your theory ?
Take the facts I listed and show me how the Bible is wrong.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I debunked your theory of rev 14 twice.

So he runs away in mocking.
I suppose he can just make believe rev 14 has the Bible confused , and that the firstfruits of the church, will be a group of Jewish men, not Jesus himself.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Sel@h noted:
<one world system>
IMO:
I would say "one area," i.e. Middle East.
There was no concept of a global world in Biblical times.

Believers are taken up by Jesus, as seen in Revelation, to avoid the bowl judgments. The bowl judgments IMO are Middle-Eastern

Jesus will also bring back to earth those whom he took up, along with other believers who were previously living in heaven.

What exactly do you believe the rapture is ?

 

[rebuilder 454]

"First fruits" (בכורים) is a Jewish holiday, ordained to the Jews by God, one of seven such holidays, all pointing to the Messiah.

Jesus is the first fruits from the grave (1Corinthians 15:20-23).

Read rev 14.
Rev 14 starts with Jewish firstfruits in heaven followed by the Jewish harvest during the trib and prewrath.
Your claim is that 144,000 jews are YOUR FIRSTFRUITS, BY saying the rapture of the church is rev 14;14,15.
You are basically saying Jesus is not YOUR firstfruits.

 

[William Barton]

Regarding the second coming:

I would think the order is:
o. Jesus the first from the grave
o. Next the dead in Christ (1Thessalonians 4:16)
o. Then those alive in Christ.

The rapture is noted in the Bible:
o. Prophesied in 1Thessalonians 4:16
o. Depicted in Revelation 14:14-16
o. The Greek verb "caught up" in Revelation is αρπαζω (arpazo).
o. The New Testament was written in Greek.
o. English "rapture" is from Latin rapere = "to seize."
o. We call the rapture "THE GREAT SNATCH."

 

[William Barton]

"First fruits" (1Corinthians 15:20) is a figure of speech. Literally it refers to the farms in an agrarian society. The first fruits are the first to ripen and be harvested.

"First fruits from the grave" refers to the "harvesting" by the rapture:
o Dead in Christ rise first
o. Then we who are alive

 

[William Barton]

I would suggest that the millenium reign of Jesus begins at the return of Jesus and his angels, all of them setting foot to the land. This return occurs after the scroll, trumpet, bowl judgments.

 

[William Barton]

In the Jewish marriage tradition the groom builds an addition onto his father's house, and then comes to the bride's father's house, at an unexpected time, and takes her to his own father's house.

Likewise Jesus will come from the sky at an unexpected time, descend to a cloud, take up his bride (the Church), and bring them to his Father's house in heaven. See Revelation 14:16, 1Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Heaven is much like earth, but better (no mosquitos, floods, etc.).

Finally this current universe will be disposed, and a new heavens and earth will be created. New Jerusalem from heaven will come down from the sky to the new earth (see Revelation chapters 21, 22), and we will be transferred there.

It's in the bag. we just need to be patient.

 

[William Barton]

I would think the order of the rapture is:
o. Jesus, the first from the grave
o. Next the dead in Christ (1Thessalonians 4:16)
o. Then those alive in Christ.

The rapture is explained in the Bible:

o. Prophesied in 1Thessalonians 4:16
o. Depicted in Revelation 14:14-16
o. The Greek verb "caught up" in Revelation is αρπαζω (arpazo).
o. The New Testament was written in Greek.
o. English "rapture" is from Latin rapere = "to seize."
o. We call the rapture "THE GREAT SNATCH."

 

[KUWN]

For those who put the Rapture and the Second Coming at roughly the same time, I offer this list of contrasts between the Rapture and the Second Coming. Each number in one/upper section corresponds to the same number in the other/lower section. This is also a list that supports the Rapture happening before the Tribulation, and the Second Coming happening at the end of the Tribulation.

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own to the earth
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. There are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

 

[rebuilder 454]

For those who put the Rapture and the Second Coming at roughly the same time, I offer this list of contrasts between the Rapture and the Second Coming. Each number in one/upper section corresponds to the same number in the other/lower section. This is also a list that supports the Rapture happening before the Tribulation, and the Second Coming happening at the end of the Tribulation.

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own to the earth
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. There are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

It won't do any good.
Postribbers have a huge massive investment in their theory.
Jesus coming down in the flesh, and telling them what is written, would not matter.
They literally will rebel against scripture to their graves.

 

[rebuilder 454]

William Barton said:
"I would think the order of the rapture is:
o. Jesus, the first from the grave
o. Next the dead in Christ (1Thessalonians 4:16)
o. Then those alive in Christ.

The rapture is explained in the Bible:

o. Prophesied in 1Thessalonians 4:16
o. Depicted in Revelation 14:14-16"




Who is the fitstfruits of rev 14;14,15?

 

[William Barton]

​

o. Jesus the first from the grave
o. Next the dead in Christ (1Thessalonians 4:16)
o. Then those alive in Christ.

The rapture is noted in the Bible:
o. Prophesied in 1Thessalonians 4:16
o. Depicted in Revelation 14:14-16
o. The Greek verb "caught up" in Revelation is αρπαζω (arpazo).
o. The New Testament was written in Greek.
o. English "rapture" is from Latin rapere = "to seize."
o. We call the rapture "THE GREAT SNATCH."

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 21:22-27, however, does not refer to His coming, but rather to the Eternity that follows the Millennium.

No such thing as a future mortal kingdom on this earth for 1,000 years (Millennium) it's a fabricated fairy tale of man

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 21:22-27, however, does not refer to His coming, but rather to the Eternity that follows the Millennium.

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[William Barton]

​

William Barton said:

"I would think the order of the rapture is:
o. Jesus, the first from the grave
o. Next the dead in Christ (1Thessalonians 4:16)
o. Then those alive in Christ.

The rapture is explained in the Bible:

o. Prophesied in 1Thessalonians 4:16
o. Depicted in Revelation 14:1t4-16"

Who is the first fruits of rev 14;14,15?

The seven Jewish holidays all celebrate Jesus the Messiah.

1. Passover...................Slain as a lamb
2. Unleavened Bread....Sinless body in the tomb
3. First Fruits.................First Fruits from the grave
4. Pentecost..................Sends the Spirit
5. Day of Trumpets........Coming with the clouds of heaven
6. Day of Atonement.....Atones for Israel
7. Booths........................Millennial reign

The term "first fruits" is an agricultural term, referring to the first fruits to ripen in the season.

 

[William Barton]

It’s getting close; the latter days are already here. Let’s not be deceived.

The gathering of believers to Christ will only occur after the Antichrist has reigned.

The popular "Rapture" theory, specifically the Pre-tribulation view, suggests that Christ will remove the church before the tribulation begins. This view claims believers will be whisked away to safety, avoiding all the fear and chaos of the Antichrist. However, this idea lacks biblical support and suggests a cowardice inconsistent with the faith of those who have died defending the truth. Our protection comes from God, our Rock, not from physical hiding places like caves in Petra.

Scripture is clear that the return of Christ happens at the last trump, after the "man of sin" is revealed. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Paul explicitly warns believers not to be deceived: the Day of Christ cannot come until there is a great falling away and the son of perdition is revealed. This false messiah will exalt himself and sit in the temple of God, claiming to be God.

While some theorists claim that the "restrainer" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is the Holy Spirit being removed during a Rapture, this is very poor scholarship. The context makes it clear that the restrainer is holding back Satan, not the church. In reality, the Archangel Michael is the one restraining Satan in heaven.

Satan’s spirit is active on earth, but he himself is not yet here in person. He will be cast out by Michael and his angels, arriving on earth first to reign as the false christ. Only after this event will the gathering to Christ occur. Do not be deceived by theories; rely solely on the Word of God.

Remember, Jesus Christ IS NOT returning until the great apostasy (falling away) occurs AFTER Satan, the son of perdition (meaning the son who will perish), is revealed. is tribulation.

o Jesus noted there will be tribulation (John 16:33).
o Jesus will take up believers before the *great* tribulation (Matthew 24:21).
o Jesus will first descend to a cloud, then take up (Revelation 14:14-16).

 

[rebuilder 454]

The seven Jewish holidays all celebrate Jesus the Messiah.

1. Passover...................Slain as a lamb
2. Unleavened Bread....Sinless body in the tomb
3. First Fruits.................First Fruits from the grave
4. Pentecost..................Sends the Spirit
5. Day of Trumpets........Coming with the clouds of heaven
6. Day of Atonement.....Atones for Israel
7. Booths........................Millennial reign

The term "first fruits" is an agricultural term, referring to the first fruits to ripen in the season.

And yet you claim 144,000 men are your firstfruits.

 

[rebuilder 454]

o Jesus noted there will be tribulation (John 16:33).
o Jesus will take up believers before the *great* tribulation (Matthew 24:21).
o Jesus will first descend to a cloud, then take up (Revelation 14:14-16).

You really want Your doctrine to fit.
It does not.
JESUS SAID WHAT THE SETTING AND TIMING IS OF THE RAPTURE.
HE PLACED THE RAPTURE PRETRIB IN MAT 24, AND 25
WAS HE WRONG?