The Case for the Sinless Ever-Virgin Mary.

[marks]

So, you claim that Jesus sinned. And all infants and children under the age of reason. Right? Do you know what sin is?

Evil speaking of others.

Much love!

 

[Pearl]

According to Scripture, Mary was not a sinner. In fact, that's a relatively late development by Protestantism. Even Martin Luther, who started Protestantism, believed that Mary was sinless:

Believing that Mary was sinless doesn't make it true. That has yet to be proved irrefutably by scriptures from the books of the bible. Nobody has been able to show us where it says that. And God's word does not contradict itself so if it says
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 3:23 It includes Mary and isn't going to say somewhere else that all doesn't mean all so that Mary can be declared without sin.

 

[Peterlag]

Well... for starters there is Roman's 3:23 "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

Note it does not say, "all have sinned except Mary over there".

Secondly, for Christ to defeat sin, He had to be born of the flesh. To be born of someone who is sinless defeat the purpose, as they would not be from the line of Adam, or even human for that matter.

The "All" in Romans 3:23 is referring to all Gentiles and all Jews. Not Christians. See Romans 3:9 to pick up the context.

 

[Peterlag]

Questions like this are moot considering the Bible has already told us that none are without sin save Jesus Christ. All have sinned means Mary also.

Much love!

This is why I bicker with you folks over the Gentile and Christian thing. Because of verses like this Romans 3:23. The all have sinned are all Gentiles and all Jews. Not Christians. See Romans 3:9 to pick up the context.

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus referred to Himself as God in various ways more than once (Jn. 8:58;10:22-36), even the Pharisees understood that He did,
which is why they told him they were going to stone Him for "blasphemy" for "making Himself God." (Jn. 10:33)

"...for all have sinned" (Rom. 3:22)
"Christ ... Who committed no sin" (1 Pet. 2:21-22)

In verse 1 Pet. 2:22, it doesn't say, "only Christ committed no sin," but rather, "Christ ... Who committed no sin." Jesus, God Incarnate, fully divine and fully human, experienced temptations of evil, and through His will in cooperation with God the Father's help, He did not commit sins. Jesus, including, for example, children who have died without having committed sins, are exceptions to the "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:22). For these reasons, Rom. 3:22 isn't proof Mary sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception.

Now, consider that only the High Priest was allowed into the Holy of Holies to offer sacrifice to God for the sins of humanity. Would Mary not have to be so Holy and Perfect, to the point of being Second to God, as to conceive God Incarnate, the Messiah, and offer Him to God the Father as a sacrifice for the sins of humanity?

Peter says, “...like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written: “You shall be holy, for I am holy” (1 Pet. 1:15-16, cf. Lev. 19:2;20:7;20:26;21:8). Jesus, God Incarnate, was holy in all His behavior because He was without sin (1 Pet. 2:22), and thus He was completely Holy. If Mary was not without sin in all Her behavior, then She was not completely Holy and Perfect. Sin is disobedience, evil, and unholy (1 Jn. 3:4;8), and "no evil can dwell with God" (Ps. 5:4). Regarding Ps. 5:4 and Jn. 1:14, there's a difference between God Incarnate taking form inside a sinful human and living among sinful humans. Consider that Mary Magdalene, a sinful human, lived among God Incarnate, but she couldn't even touch Him after His resurrection yet because of her impurity from sins (Jn. 20:17). Therefore, how could God, the Most Holy and Perfect One, allegedly take form and dwell in a sinful (impure) body?

Do you believe or not believe that God, in advance, could have or could have not Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, and because He knew Her soul would've been subject to the law of the first parents, He preserved it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus it became an immaculate soul capable of possessing the fullness of His Grace, then He infused it into the embryo at the moment of Her conception? Do you believe or not believe that these factors, coupled with being conceived by and born of two Just human parents and having a natural good will, could have or could not have resulted in Mary being without sin, and thus a worthy dwelling place for God Incarnate, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior, the most Holy and Perfect One, to take form in and live a divinely Holy life with in Spirit and Body on earth and in Heaven?​

Jesus never referred to himself as God. Not even once. There is not one verse that says Jesus is God the Son. Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not. Only in the minds of Catholics who cannot explain it.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Do you believe that God, in advance, could have Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, and because He knew Her soul would've been subject to the law of Adam and thus inherit the stain of original sin, He preserved it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus it became an immaculate soul capable of possessing the fullness of His Grace, then He infused it into the embryo at the moment of Her conception? Do you believe that these factors, coupled with being conceived by and born of two Just human parents and having a natural good will, could have resulted in Mary being without sin, and thus a worthy dwelling place for God Incarnate, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior, the most Holy and Perfect One, to be conceived and take form in, and live a divinely Holy life with in Spirit and Body on earth and in Heaven?

Could have? yep, he could have, but where is that written.

The only thing we were told was she was pure and a virgin... i.e. without sexual sin having known no man before the Holy Spirit visited her and Jesus was the result.

Also, where is it written she was not allowed to ever fulfill her marriage vows?

Once Jesus was born, her obligation of remaining pure had been fulfilled.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Actually, I've said that Jesus is the new Adam, and Mary the new Eve. Now, do you believe or not believe that God, in advance, could have or could have not Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, and because He knew Her soul would've been subject to the law of Adam and thus inherit the stain of original sin, He preserved it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus it became an immaculate soul capable of possessing the fullness of His Grace, then He infused it into the embryo at the moment of Her conception? Do you believe or not believe that these factors, coupled with being conceived by and born of two Just human parents and having a natural good will, could have or could not have resulted in Mary being without sin, and thus a worthy dwelling place for God Incarnate, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior, the most Holy and Perfect One, to be conceived and take form in, and live a divinely Holy life with in Spirit and Body on earth and in Heaven?



I happily can and would like to from the scriptural writings that make up The Poem of the Man-God. I know that's not The Bible, but I don't limit the knowledge of God to one book, a book made up of multiple books itself. Unless you're of the same mind about that, and are willing to at least read what I have to share without any prejudgment, would you say it'd be a waste of my time to quote from it?



Praying for the dead is taught in the Bible: "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins" (2 Macc. 12:46). Unfortunately, there are Protestants who choose to have a version of the Bible that doesn't include the book of Maccabees, a book which was ejected from Scripture. Anyway, that verse is referring to souls in the place most commonly known as "Purgatory."



According to Jesus, through spokesmen of His, such as Maria Valtorta and Maria Simma, He explains that Purgatory is a place where just souls who [physically] die but still require purification go before they can enter Heaven, and the prayers of souls on earth for them help their purification process, and thus shorten their stay there. Maria Simma described this temporary dwelling thus:

"Suppose that one day a door opens, and a splendid being appears, extremely beautiful, of a beauty that has never been seen on earth. You are fascinated, overwhelmed by this being of light and beauty, even more so that this being shows that he is madly in love with you -- you have never dreamed of being loved so much. You sense too that he has a great desire to draw you to him, to be one with you. And the fire of love which burns in your heart impels you to throw yourself into his arms. But wait -- you realize at this moment that you haven't washed for months and months, that you smell bad; you nose is running, your hair is greasy and matted, there are big dirty stains on your clothes, etc. So you say to yourself, "No, I just can't present myself in this state. First I must go and wash: a good shower, then straight away I'll come back.

But the love which has been born in your heart is so intense, so burning, so strong, that this delay for the shower is absolutely unbearable. And the pain of the absence, even if it only lasts for a couple of minutes, is an atrocious wound in the heart, proportional to the intensity of the revelation of the love -- it is a "love-wound".

Purgatory is exactly this. It's a delay imposed by our impurity, a delay before God's embrace, a wound of love which causes intense suffering, a waiting, if you like, a nostalgia for love. It is precisely this burning, this longing which cleanses us of whatever is still impure in us. Purgatory is a place of desire, a made desire for God, desire for this God whom we already know, for we have seen him, but with whom we are not yet united."

Maccabees.... Not canon.

 

[Pearl]

The only thing we were told was she was pur and without sin

Where in the bible does it actually say she was without sin?

 

[TheOneHeLoves]

Do Catholics pray to Mary?

ALL THE TIME. SINNING AGAINST GOD.

 

[marks]

Jesus never referred to himself as God. Not even once.

No, not in the words you are thinking necessary, but the Jews were perfectly clear about what He said, as they several times attempted to stone Him for making Himself to be God.

Just one place that you cannot overturn, "Before Abraham was, I am", which is to say, "before Abraham did exist, I do exist", which can only be spoken by an eternal being. Though you say He is not God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

This is why I bicker with you folks over the Gentile and Christian thing. Because of verses like this Romans 3:23. The all have sinned are all Gentiles and all Jews. Not Christians. See Romans 3:9 to pick up the context.

The point of the passage is that everyone has sinned. All have sinned. Yes, even Christians.

Much love!

 

[Adrift]

In Luke 1:28, in the original Greek, the angel addresses Mary as kecharitomene. This word, in the grammatical sense in which it was used implies that Mary was without sin from the very first moment of her existence (when she was conceived in her mother's womb), in such a manner as to be permanent thereafter.

Wow! That's a stretch! Sin is a spiritual process, not a biological one, so Mary didn't need to be without sin.

 

[marks]

Wow! That's a stretch! Sin is a spiritual process, not a biological one, so Mary didn't need to be without sin.

His so-called grammatical argument is false. The perfect tense of the verb does NOT show when the action occurred, this is deception. Thi is another of those long and convoluted arguments based on a falsehood.

Much love!

 

[Augustin56]

Maccabees.... Not canon.

Says who? By what authority? You have an entire new Testament based on the same authority that says Maccabees were part of the canon of Scripture. You can't have it both ways. You can't pick and choose according to your own wishes. You don't have that authority. Authority is given, not taken.

 

[Augustin56]

Wow! That's a stretch! Sin is a spiritual process, not a biological one, so Mary didn't need to be without sin.

Actually, there are two main types of sin: Original sin that we are born with (except Adam, Eve, Mary, and Jesus) and actual sin (sins we commit by rebelling against God).

For purposes of this discussion, the context I mean is actual sin.

God, by a unique grace, chose to create Mary without Original sin. Or do you think He wasn't capable of doing so? He also created Adam and Eve without sin, too. According to the original Greek, Mary remained sinless. Even Martin Luther, the father of Protestatism believed that. The notion that Mary sinned came fairly late in the game.

 

[Augustin56]

His so-called grammatical argument is false. The perfect tense of the verb does NOT show when the action occurred, this is deception. Thi is another of those long and convoluted arguments based on a falsehood.

Much love!

The manner in which the angel referred to Mary as kecharitomene, was more than just a description. It was a Title.

 

[Augustin56]

ALL THE TIME. SINNING AGAINST GOD.

Most Protestants’ experience of worship is really focused on praying, and reading the Bible, and singing. They don’t have the Mass. They don’t have the sacrifice, the sacrificial element. So when it comes to worship, they just assume if you’re praying to Mary, you’re worshiping her.

So they define prayer as worship, whereas we Catholics see the prayer is just the original meaning of it, which is to beseech, just to ask, is to converse with. And if you ask a friend for some help and moving from one house to another, you don’t say that you’re worshiping your friend by asking him to help you, do you? That’s a more of a conversation, and we see prayer to Mary as more of what we do with each other, with our parents, with our friends, with our family and not as somebody we’re worshiping. And Mary's prayers, by virtue of the fact that she's Jesus' mother, are far more effective than ours. Unless you believe Jesus broke one of the 10 Commandments (Honor thy Father AND Mother."?

 

[marks]

The manner in which the angel referred to Mary as kecharitomene, was more than just a description. It was a Title.

You claim grammar shows Mary filled with grace from conception, meaning she was sinless, and that is false. The grammar shows no such thing. It is a falsehood built on a falsehood.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And Mary's prayers, by virtue of the fact that she's Jesus' mother, are far more effective than ours.

John 16:23 LITV
And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Truly, truly, I say to you, Whatever you shall ask the Father in My name, He will give you.

Jesus says here that we will ask the Father directly. I'm going with that.

Much love!

 

[Peterlag]

The point of the passage is that everyone has sinned. All have sinned. Yes, even Christians.

Much love!

It does not say all people. It says all Jews and Gentiles. But if you think Gentiles are the same as Christians then that's why you can't see it.