The Case for the Sinless Ever-Virgin Mary.

[Soulx3]

So you don't pray to Mary?

Did I not just say that we, including Mary, prays to God?

 

[Jim C]

Jesus can be human, while not from the line of Adam, but a new humanity, in which we leave the Adamic line, and are added to Jesus.

When Adam sinned, humanity became corrupted.

Much love!

Yes, but Christ was indeed from the line of Adam. Scripture clearly states multiple times that Jesus was from the line of David. Now, David's line can be traced back to Judah, then to Jacob -- Isaac -- Abraham -- Noah -- Adam.

One of the primary purposes of the OT is to demonstrate a direct line from Adam to Jesus -- hence all the genealogies listed in various places in the OT.

It was necessary for Christ to be born of Adam's line and be one of us so that He could correct Adam's mistake.

 

[Soulx3]

Well please point me to it as I never saw it before. No Greek or odd translations, in plain, straight English where does it say Mary was sinless? As I have only ever seen where it says one man/human was without sin and that was Jesus. If God wanted us to know that Mary was born sinless he would have clearly told us so. just as He plainly tells us about Jesus. For Mary to have been without sin she too would have had to be as a result of conception by the Holy Spirit and that just isn't the case. I know the bible says she was full of grace but then so am I and all born again Christians. I revere her as the mother of my Saviour but she was only made free of sin by Jesus just as we all are who are born again.

Jesus Himself explicitely states the Mother of God Incarnate is without sin as well, and explains why, but His words are found in a book you reject, at least right now. At this time, you need to read "Mary was sinless" in the Bible in order to accept that She was, and I'm patient and understanding as to why. Now, in the writings that make up the Bible, we don't have anyone explicitly writing"Mary was sinless" like you want, but it is in there, there's just more than one way to something, and you have to recognize those other ways. For example, the very fact that God Himself was conceived and took form in Her as Jesus, God Incarnate. Read the opening post again, and if you still believe God, the Most Holy and Perfect One, would want to and could reside in someone stained with original sin, etc., then explain why.

 

[marks]

It was necessary for Christ to be born of Adam's line and be one of us so that He could correct Adam's mistake.

Yes, I've considered that, let me ask you, what are your thoughts on this passage?

1 Corinthians 15:45-47 KJV
45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

What does it mean that Jesus is the "last Adam", and that He is the Lord from Heaven contrasted with the first man who is of the earth?

Much love!

 

[Jim C]

Yes, I've considered that, let me ask you, what are your thoughts on this passage?

1 Corinthians 15:45-47 KJV
45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

What does it mean that Jesus is the "last Adam", and that He is the Lord from Heaven contrasted with the first man who is of the earth?

Much love!

Adam was created from dust, he literally came from the Earth. Christ came down to earth from heaven via the Holy Spirit causing Mary to conceive. (Stating the obvious, I know)

However, when Adam died, his body returned to the earth from whence it came.
But when Christ died, He was resurrected into a spiritual body and returned to heaven from whence HE came, thus beginning a new line.

All who believe will leave the flawed earthly body of Adam's line behind and be resurrected into Jesus's line in a new spiritual body.
As Adam was our earthly progenitor, Christ, the last Adam, is our spiritual progenitor.

 

[BlessedPeace]

"...for all have sinned" (Rom. 3:22)

...with the exception of Jesus, so why not also His Mother, Mary, the One Who conceived Him, God Incarnate?
There's no scriptural verse that forbids the exception applying to Mary as well.

Jesus referred to Himself as God in various ways more than once (Jn. 8:58;10:22-36), even the Pharisees understood that He did, which is why they told him they were going to stone Him for "blasphemy" for "making Himself God." (Jn. 10:33)

Now, consider that only the High Priest was allowed into the Holy of Holies to offer sacrifice to God for the sins of humanity.
Would Mary not have to be so Holy and Perfect, to the point of being Second only to God, as to conceive God Incarnate, the Messiah, and offer Him to God the Father as a sacrifice for the sins of humanity? Could God, in advance, not have Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, preserving it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus becoming an immaculate soul capable of possessing the fullness of His Grace, then infusing it into the embryo at the moment of conception? Could these factors, coupled with being conceived by and born of two Just human parents and having a natural good will, not result in Mary being a worthy dwelling place for God Incarnate, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior, the most Holy and Perfect One, to be conceived and take form in, and live a divinely Holy life with in Spirit and Body on earth and in Heaven?

Peter says, “...like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written: “You shall be holy, for I am holy” (1 Pet. 1:15-16, cf. Lev. 19:2;20:7;20:26;21:8). Jesus, God Incarnate, was holy in all His behavior because He was without sin (1 Pet. 2:22), and thus He was completely Holy. If Mary was not without sin in all Her behavior, then She was not completely Holy and Perfect. Sin is disobedience, evil, and unholy (1 Jn. 3:4;8), and "no evil can dwell with God" (Ps. 5:4). Therefore, how could God, the most Holy and Perfect One, allegedly create a soul, and as God Incarnate take form and dwell in a body, that was not the most Holy and Perfect so as to be Second only to Him?​

Jesus had so lings. Mary was not a perpetual virgin.

When she birthed Jesus, she was no longer virgin. Her hyman burst.

The lie about Mary is a shame. And an insult to her.

 

[Cassandra]

Jesus Himself explicitely states the Mother of God Incarnate is without sin as well, and explains why, but His words are found in a book you reject, at least right now. At this time, you need to read "Mary was sinless" in the Bible in order to acce that She was, and I'm patient and understanding as to why. Now, in the writings that make up the Bible, we don't have anyone explicitely writing "Mary was sinless" like you want, but it is in there, there's just more than one way to something, and you just have to recognize those other ways. For example, the very fact that God Himself was conceived and took form in Her as Jesus, God Incarnate. Read the opening post again and if you still believe God, the Most Holy and Perfect One, would want to and could reside in someone stained with original sin, etc.

But didn't Mary, who you regard as sinless, reside in someone stained with original sin? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Jack]

Did I not just say that we, including Mary, prays to God?

Very evasive. Do you pray to Mary?

 

[marks]

But didn't Mary, who you regard as sinless, reside in someone stained with original sin? It just doesn't make sense.

That's an interesting point. The OP posits that God kept Mary sinless by shielding her from the corruption passed down from Adam, but certain that could apply to Jesus just the same, without this artificial necessity that Mary was sinless, contradiction oh so many passages.

Much love!

 

[RedFan]

Jesus was God Incarnate, but also fully human, suspectible to the temptations if sin, and through His will in cooperation with God the Father's help, He resisted sin. He was a human exception, and there's no scriptural verse that prohibits the exception to applying to anyone else, including Mary, the Mother of God Incarnate.

And no scriptural verse that prohibits the exception from applying to you or me. How is that an argument for our sinlessness?

 

[Soulx3]

And no scriptural verse that prohibits the exception from applying to you or me. How is that an argument for our sinlessness?

Because only Mary, not you, me, or anyone else, was chosen to conceive and be the Mother of God Incarnate. How is that not an argument for Her sinlessness?

 

[Soulx3]

Very evasive. Do you pray to Mary?

What are you talking about? Did I not say that we, including Mary, pray to God?

 

[Soulx3]

But didn't Mary, who you regard as sinless, reside in someone stained with original sin? It just doesn't make sense.

If it doesn't make sense for the idea of Mary to be without sin and reside in someone stained with original sin, then how can it make sense for God Incarnate, the Most Holy and Perfect One, to reside in someone stained with original sin? Mary's parents inherited the stain of original sin, but they were Just. In the case of Mary, God, in advance, Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, and preserved it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus becoming an immaculate soul capable of possessing the fullness of His Grace, then infused it into the embryo at the moment of conception. These factors, coupled with being conceived by and born of two Just human parents and having a natural good will, resulted in Mary being without sin, and thus a worthy dwelling place for God Incarnate, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior, the most Holy and Perfect One, to be conceived and take form in, and live a divinely Holy life with in Spirit and Body on earth and in Heaven.

 

[Jack]

What are you talking about? Did I not say that we, including Mary, pray to God?

It's a yes or no question! Do you pray to Mary?

 

[Soulx3]

It's a yes or no question! Do you pray to Mary?

I answered at least twice saying that we, including Mary, pray to God (see posts #55, #91, #101, #112) .

 

[Jack]

What are you talking about? I answered at least twice saying that we, including Mary, pray to God (see posts #55, #91, #101, #112) .

Everybody can see you didn't answer.

 

[Soulx3]

Everybody can see you didn't answer.

You asked if Catholics pray to Mary. I said that we, including Mary, pray to God. If we pray to God, not Mary, then how is that not an answer?

 

[Jack]

You asked if Catholics pray to Mary. I said that we, including Mary, pray to God. If we pray to God, not Mary, then how is that not an answer?

So it's a LIE going around that Catholics pray to Mary? Let's see what others have to say about this.

 

[Soulx3]

So it's a LIE going around that Catholics pray to Mary?

Yes, a lie they believe to be true.

 

[Jack]

Yes, a lie they believe to be true.

I hope we can get some comments.