The Case for the Sinless Ever-Virgin Mary.

[Jack]

We are asking Her to pray to God for us.

Jesus is the ONLY mediator between man and God! So you are making Mary equal to Jesus!

1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

 

[O'Darby]

For me a key point comes in "how we read the Bible". When someone holds to a doctrine which is refuted in Scripture, they have to do something about that refutation. Typically this is address (in my experience) by "It says THIS, but it really means THAT." So that all no longer means all, or that "this is a symbol/metaphor for . . ."

If we get into the habit of allowing this kind of loose interpretation in our minds, that, to me, is a problem.

Much love!

FWIW, Mary clearly was a much more central figure in early Christianity than she is in Protestant theology today:

Mary: Ever Virgin — Church Fathers

www.churchfathers.org

Foundations of Marian Devotion in the Early Church

I was recently startled to hear a Catholic telling me that, in the Catholic Church, devotion to Mary is “optional,” and that besides, devotion to Mary did not even start in the Church until the AD …

renewthechurch.com

Yes, a "sola scriptura" biblical case against the Catholic (and Orthodox) teachings can certainly be made, but when doctrines go back to the Apostolic Fathers and Early Church Fathers I'm not prepared to completely pooh-pooh them. For Protestants, it comes down to sola scriptura (whatever that means to each of us), whereas for Catholics and Orthodox it's Scripture, tradition and history.

 

[marks]

but when doctrines go back to the Apostolic Fathers and Early Church Fathers

I've read enough early church writings to know they were all over the map on many things, and many things they wrote appear to me to be in direct contradiction to the Scriptures.

And I also understand that the victor writes the history, that is, the ones who gather the writings have the option of which to keep and which not to. I have no assurance that the extant material is in fact complete, or even representative.

I'm a sola Scriptura kind of guy, what that means to me is that everything is to be checked and confirmed by the Bible.

Much love!

 

[Pearl]

Jesus Himself explicitely states the Mother of God Incarnate is without sin as well, and explains why, but His words are found in a book you reject, at least right now. At this time, you need to read "Mary was sinless" in the Bible in order to accept that She was, and I'm patient and understanding as to why. Now, in the writings that make up the Bible, we don't have anyone explicitly writing"Mary was sinless" like you want, but it is in there, there's just more than one way to something, and you have to recognize those other ways. For example, the very fact that God Himself was conceived and took form in Her as Jesus, God Incarnate. Read the opening post again, and if you still believe God, the Most Holy and Perfect One, would want to and could reside in someone stained with original sin, etc., then explain why.

I don't reject Mary as a very remarkable young woman, chosen by God to be the mother of his son. What I do reject is the claim she was sinless, without sin at birth and nobody has been able to prove me wrong from the bible - I do no accept any other source. Even you. I asked for a simple passage from the bible which says she is without sin but you couldn't provide it because your source is outside of biblical scripture. I rest my case.

 

[RedFan]

Whether John the Baptist ever went fishing - now THAT deserves a thread of its own!

Locusts and honey isn't enough protein?

 

[O'Darby]

Locusts and honey isn't enough protein?

Well, since he was doing his baptismal thing in the Jordan River anyway, he just kind of figured "What the heck ..."

 

[Jim C]

The words in the Hail Mary prayer come from Scripture, and it begins by addressing Mary using the words the angel, Gabriel, and Her cousin used:

"Hail, Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with you. (Lk. 1:26-28)

Blessed art you among women
and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. (Lk. 1:42)

Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.

Amen."

We are asking Her to pray to God for us. We're not praying to Her in the way we, including Her, prays to God. See, @Jack, this is an example that people believe the lie that we pray to Mary.

Praying to Mary to pray to God for you is still praying to Mary.

 

[RedFan]

I don't reject Mary as a very remarkable young woman, chosen by God to be the mother of his son. What I do reject is the claim she was sinless, without sin at birth and nobody has been able to prove me wrong from the bible - I do no accept any other source. Even you. I asked for a simple passage from the bible which says she is without sin but you couldn't provide it because your source is outside of biblical scripture. I rest my case.

I don't know if Mary was sinless or not. The Bible is silent on the issue. To those who say that such silence proves she wasn't sinless, I say your logic is faulty; the Bible is silent on a great many things that are true. So @Pearl, you shouldn't have rested your case so quickly. (On the other hand, the burden of proof isn't on you, so the verdict will probably go your way anyway.)

 

[Jim C]

I've read enough early church writings to know they were all over the map on many things, and many things they wrote appear to me to be in direct contradiction to the Scriptures.

And I also understand that the victor writes the history, that is, the ones who gather the writings have the option of which to keep and which not to. I have no assurance that the extant material is in fact complete, or even representative.

I'm a sola Scriptura kind of guy, what that means to me is that everything is to be checked and confirmed by the Bible.

Much love!

Exactly. God didn't give us the Bible because He thought we needed more doorstops.

 

[Adrift]

Well, since he was doing his baptismal thing in the Jordan River anyway, he just kind of figured "What the heck ..."

Not sure about John, but I believe that Moses always had a rod with him.

 

[Soulx3]

And no one can deny that there is existing FALSE information about people/places/events that is lacking in the writings that make up the Bible. You really need to get off this "The Bible doesn't say No, therefore YES" kick. You've got some good points to make, and this type of silliness only detracts from your credibility.

I already said that there is existing false and true information about people/places/events that are lacking in the writings that make up the Bible. I made a point to remind that there's true information about people/places/events that are lacking in the writings that make up the Bible in response to protestants who argue, "If x, y, z is not mentioned, or not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, then it's automatically false," because that is false. Does that mean if x y, z is not mentioned at all, or not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, then it's automatically true? No, but again, it doesn't automatically mean it isn't either, and it isn't impossible to know whether x, y, z is true or false.

You're misrepresenting me when you say I'm on a "The Bible doesn't say NO, therefore YES kick," so will you say that detracts from any credibility you may have? I've never argued that Mary being without sin is not in the scriptural writings that make up the Bible, and thus proves my position, but rather argued that it is in the Bible, just not in a way others accept, at least right now. I've also argued that Mary being without sin is explicitly mentioned in scriptural writings that make up The Poem of the Man-God, currently not accepted by some. Also, what credibility do I have, or can I have among Protestants, when merely for being Catholic most Protestants here, if not all, say that anything I believe that they don't is automatically false?

It IS an argument for her sinlessness!

So, we agree with the very fact that Mary conceived God Incarnate is a valid argument for Her being without sin. My next question is, do you think it's sensible for Mary to have been born of two parents subject to the law of Adam (inherit original sin), but be without sin Herself?

Praying to Mary to pray to God for you is still praying to Mary.

So, when you ask others to join you in prayer to God for yourself, or another, you're praying to them as if they were God?

I asked for a simple passage from the bible which says she is without sin but you couldn't provide it because your source is outside of biblical scripture.

As you asked, I referenced a simple passage from the scriptural writings that make up the Bible as support Mary was without sin: the very fact She conceived God Incarnate (Lk. 1:25). In the opening post, I gave multiple verses from the scriptural writings that make up the Bible to show why She had to be without sin. What I asked of you you couldn't do, which is defend your belief that Mary sinned by explaining why God, the Most Holy and Perfect One, would want to and could be conceived and take human form in a human being stained with original sin, etc.

Jesus is the ONLY mediator between man and God! So you are making Mary equal to Jesus!

1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

So, you don't ask others to join you in prayer to God for yourself or another?

Asking Mary is in fact praying to Mary. Making petition of Mary.

Much love!

So, when you ask others to join you in prayer to God for yourself, or another, you're praying to them as if they were God?

 

[Jack]

So, you don't ask others to join you in prayer to God for yourself or another?

I don't ask dead people to join me in prayer! LOL!!!

 

[Soulx3]

I don't ask dead people to join me in prayer! LOL!!!

Well, no one is dead in the eternal, whether they are in Heaven or Hell, because the soul is immortal. So, again, do you not ask others, whether those alive on earth or in Heaven, to join you in prayer to God for yourself or another?

 

[Jack]

Well, no one is dead in the eternal, whether they are in Heaven or Hell, because the soul is immortal. So, again, do you not ask others, whether those alive on earth or in Heaven, to join you in prayer to God for yourself or another?

Already said, I don't ask dead people anything. How many dead people do you talk to? Do they answer you?

 

[Soulx3]

Already said, I don't ask dead people anything. How many dead people do you talk to? Do they answer you?

Again, no one is dead in the eternal, whether they are in Heaven or Hell, because the soul is immortal. Therefore, there's technically no talking to dead people, but rather only living people who are either alive in the temporal or alive in the eternal. So, how many living people do I talk to who are in the eternal? Well, there's God the Father, Jesus, His Mother, the apostles, my family, friends, etc. Does God answer my prayers? Yes, He just hasn't audibly, at least in my experience so far. Do you not ask others alive on earth or alive in Heaven, to join you in prayer to God for yourself or another?

 

[Jack]

Again, no one is dead in the eternal, whether they are in Heaven or Hell, because the soul is immortal. Therefore, there's technically no talking to dead people, but rather only living people who are either alive in the temporal or alive in the eternal. So, how many living people do I talk to who are in the eternal? Well, there's God the Father, Jesus, His Mother, the apostles, my family, friends, etc. Does God answer my prayers? Yes, He just hasn't audibly, at least in my experience so far. Do you not ask others alive on earth or alive in Heaven, to join you in prayer to God for yourself or another?

Do they ever talk back to you? Do you hear voices?

 

[Soulx3]

Do they ever talk back to you? Do you hear voices?

Before I answer a question from you, can you answer the one I've been waiting for you to answer? Again, do you not ask others alive on earth or alive in Heaven, to join you in prayer to God for yourself or another? I like to try and keep discussion fair.

 

[Jack]

Before I answer a question from you, can you answer the one I've had to ask you multiple times now? Do you not ask others alive on earth

Yes I do.

or alive in Heaven, to join you in prayer to God for yourself or another?

No I don't. They are gone.

I like to try and keep discussion fair

Your turn. Do you hear voices? Do they answer you?

 

[Soulx3]

No I don't.They are gone.

Thank you for answering. So, what do you mean immortal souls are "gone?"

Do you hear voices?

Audible voices? I personally haven't, at least not yet, but others have.

 

[Jack]

Thank you for answering. So, what do you mean immortal souls are "gone?"

I didn't say "immortal souls". People who died are not here, including Mary.

Audible voices? I personally haven't, at least not yet, but others have.

So you talk to them but they don't answer.