The Catholic Church gets put down a lot, but it was all that could help

[ScaliaFan]

it is too

shows what u know


Matthew 7:21-23


21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

 

[ScaliaFan]

An accusation without evidence would be thrown out of court. On a Christian forum like this, an accusation without evidence is just as poor a defense. Now step up to the plate and provide the evidence against me.

i am not your conscience or your homework-doer

it is up to you to get "saved"

up to you to do or not do the will of God

 

[OzSpen]

What is a statement of faith based on Scripture? Who defines what that is?? Don't all churches have that AND think they are right in their interpretation of Scripture?

Once again, and we have been thru this before, what if my "local Church" disagrees with your "local Church" on "a statement of faith based on Scripture"? Who's "local Church" is right if All scripture is God-breathed...." ? Since it is God-breathed then there can be no error in it and it is infallible.

If scripture is infallible AND God breathed then either your local Church or my local Church is wrong in it's interpretation of Scripture.

Based on your logic no one church has the fullness of the truth. Based on your logic ALL churches probably teach a mixture of the truth. As YOUR beliefs change and your "local church" doesn't meet your needs based on YOUR beliefs you can just go to a different church? Kind of like being in a cafeteria. If you judge your "local church's" interpretation of the bible as being wrong then you will never be sure who has the truth; you or them?

Based on your "local church" logic this makes being a follower of Christ more about YOU than about Him.

Tom,

I'm not doing another round with you. It is the original text (autographa) that is theopneustos (breathed out by God). A statement of faith of a local church is for that church's jurisdiction and discipline. All of us are involved in hermeneutics of the text, pastors and laity.

Oz

 

[tom55]

Tom,

I'm not doing another round with you. It is the original text (autographa) that is theopneustos (breathed out by God). A statement of faith of a local church is for that church's jurisdiction and discipline. All of us are involved in hermeneutics of the text, pastors and laity.

Oz

OK. Thank you for your time. Was just hoping you would realize how your "local church" theory is not based on scripture, church history or logic.

 

[StanJ]

it is too
shows what u know
Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

That's right, it shows exactly what I know and what you don't know about the Bible. The Kingdom of Heaven is not heaven, and this phrase is only used in the gospel of Matthew to indicate the New Covenant that Jesus other than for all believers. The Kingdom of Heaven is the church and I don't mean the RCC, but the actual Body of Christ on Earth. It basically means the rule of God on Earth just as any kingdom is ruled by it's sovereign.

 

[ScaliaFan]

I don't deal w/ dishonest people

and sorry, but most catholics who leave the Church and then have a bitter "story" to tell to anyone who will listen.. are dishonest. That has been my experience (over and over and over again)

and i .. well, you know..

as someone once said

"This above all, to thine own self be true"

being true to myself means staying away from dishonest people.. people who don't want to deal with their malice or frustrations except by hurling them @ the Church, a handy scapegoat, apparently



:blink:

 

[OzSpen]

OK. Thank you for your time. Was just hoping you would realize how your "local church" theory is not based on scripture, church history or logic.

Tom,

Jesus disagrees with your view: 'If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector' (Matt 18:17 NIV).

Oz

 

[tom55]

That's right, it shows exactly what I know and what you don't know about the Bible. The Kingdom of Heaven is not heaven, and this phrase is only used in the gospel of Matthew to indicate the New Covenant that Jesus other than for all believers. The Kingdom of Heaven is the church and I don't mean the RCC, but the actual Body of Christ on Earth. It basically means the rule of God on Earth just as any kingdom is ruled by it's sovereign.

ScacliaFan,

I think StanJ basically got this one right. The Kingdom of Heaven is the Church. The Kingdom of God is heaven.

Protestants don't believe any one church, especially the RCC, has authority here on earth. Only the church they attend or their interpretation of scripture is accurate and infallible; no one else's.

Basically "the Church" spoken of in scripture is like a cafeteria. You find "the Church" that agrees with what "you" think scripture means and then attend that church.
That way "you" can never be wrong about your beliefs because if the church elders stop preaching what you believe you just change churches to the church that teaches what you believe. Or if you are the type that meets in your house with 5-20 other people, call it a church meeting, and as a group you interpret scripture a certain way "you" are always right in your interpretation because you were guided by the Holy Spirit.

Hope that helps you to understand a Protestants stance on this issue.

 

[tom55]

Tom,

Jesus disagrees with your view: 'If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector' (Matt 18:17 NIV).

Oz

Here is how YOUR logic on this works out:

So I do what Jesus says and I go to the RCC (1 billion members) OR Joes Church in any town USA (5,000 members) and they agree with me.

You do what Jesus says to do and you go to your local church OR the Baptist Church (30 million members) and they agree with you.

Who is right? Do I get treated like a pagan or tax collector OR do you???

 

[OzSpen]

Here is how YOUR logic on this works out:

So I do what Jesus says and I go to the RCC (1 billion members) OR Joes Church in any town USA (5,000 members) and they agree with me.

You do what Jesus says to do and you go to your local church OR the Baptist Church (30 million members) and they agree with you.

Who is right? Do I get treated like a pagan or tax collector OR do you???

Tom,

You are being obstinate.

Jesus is basic in his instruction in Matt 18:15-20 (NIV)

Dealing With Sin in the Church
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

Jesus said that if a singular person (brother or sister) sinned against another and reconciliation was not possible, take one or two others with him/her to establish the matter. If that brother or sister refuses to reconcile, the matter is taken to the church (singular) to resolve. If final reconciliation is not possible, the brother or sister is then excommunicated, i.e. treated as a pagan or tax collector, and not allowed back into the church.

To follow this teaching at the local church level is to bind the matter on earth and in heaven. We know this is the local church because of v. 20, 'For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them'. This is not dealing with the RCC, Anglican, Methodist or Pentecostal denomination but a local church.

Oz

 

[StanJ]

Here is how YOUR logic on this works out:

So I do what Jesus says and I go to the RCC (1 billion members) OR Joes Church in any town USA (5,000 members) and they agree with me.

You do what Jesus says to do and you go to your local church OR the Baptist Church (30 million members) and they agree with you.

Who is right? Do I get treated like a pagan or tax collector OR do you???

When did Jesus tell you to go to the RCC? He said True Believers are part of the Body of Christ which is the church, and HE is the head of His Body. At best some of the RCC, just as some of any other Christian denomination in the world, equal the church, but there will come a day in which Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats and we will find out exactly who in all those denominations, including the RCC, were truly Christian.

Sadly, Christian can equal RC but RCC doesn't necessarily equal Christian.

 

[StanJ]

ScacliaFan,

I think StanJ basically got this one right. The Kingdom of Heaven is the Church. The Kingdom of God is heaven.

Protestants don't believe any one church, especially the RCC, has authority here on earth. Only the church they attend or their interpretation of scripture is accurate and infallible; no one else's.

Basically "the Church" spoken of in scripture is like a cafeteria. You find "the Church" that agrees with what "you" think scripture means and then attend that church.
That way "you" can never be wrong about your beliefs because if the church elders stop preaching what you believe you just change churches to the church that teaches what you believe. Or if you are the type that meets in your house with 5-20 other people, call it a church meeting, and as a group you interpret scripture a certain way "you" are always right in your interpretation because you were guided by the Holy Spirit.

Hope that helps you to understand a Protestants stance on this issue.

How can he possibly understand Protestantism if you don't and you're the one explaining it?

 

[ScaliaFan]

ScacliaFan,

I think StanJ basically got this one right. The Kingdom of Heaven is the Church. The Kingdom of God is heaven.

Protestants don't believe any one church, especially the RCC, has authority here on earth. Only the church they attend or their interpretation of scripture is accurate and infallible; no one else's.

Basically "the Church" spoken of in scripture is like a cafeteria. You find "the Church" that agrees with what "you" think scripture means and then attend that church.
That way "you" can never be wrong about your beliefs because if the church elders stop preaching what you believe you just change churches to the church that teaches what you believe. Or if you are the type that meets in your house with 5-20 other people, call it a church meeting, and as a group you interpret scripture a certain way "you" are always right in your interpretation because you were guided by the Holy Spirit.

Hope that helps you to understand a Protestants stance on this issue.

hopefully you are being sarcastic

otherwise, it makes no sense what u say..

 

[ScaliaFan]

my definition of Christian:

someone who loves Jesus, prays to Jesus, does what He says... and puts Him above all others

by that definition, there are VERY few Christians in the world

and of course there is this: Jesus told us there would be FEW... who make it to Heaven.. see Mt 7 and Lk 13:24

 

[Phoneman777]

i need the Holy Mass to communicate w/ God. And of course, God being no respecter of persons, that applies to everyone else also. wheter they admit it or not, and of course the anticatholics won't.. which is not to say i dont feel close to him elsewhere It's just that elswehre there are many demons (in humans) separating you from Him... and so you are not "alone" with Him, meaning u r not alone minus the demons that surround us at all times...

i found Jesus through the rosary. Then i found Him also in the Holy Mass, where (the saints tell us) all of Heaven participates

you do not know Jesus if you do not know the Eucharist

and that is just an objective fact whether you like it or not (but of course u would like it if you only knew...)

Please provide a Scripture that says the church needs the Mass to talk to God.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe that the church has incubated seven general congregations, which are the seven candlesticks...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the circumcision, Peter.
Smyrna - Gentile Persecuted Church - Beginning with the Apostle to the uncircumcision, Paul.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

And what says the Christ?

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 2:1

So, if my interpretation of the seven congregations is correct, Christ himself walks among the Messianic, Persecuted, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Revived, and the Charismatic. And the ministers of all these exist in his right hand. I see no harm in walking as Christ walks, and that is amidst of the seven church congregations. I believe that the spirit of Jezebel has long left the Catholic church and I will actually visit Catholic churches. What I sense is that they are being troubled by the same spirit of lukewarmness that is troubling all seven congregations. I also enjoy EWTN from time to time and will keep tabs on the pope, considering that he is a Christian leader in our time.

 

[ScaliaFan]

Please provide a Scripture that says the church needs the Mass to talk to God.

i can't if you want an explicit one that spells it out for a 5 yr old to u/stand

but the Mass is there in scripture. the Chruch Christ founded never contradicts the Scirptures

 

[StanJ]

and of course there is this: Jesus told us there would be FEW... who make it to Heaven..

Jesus never said any such thing. You should actually know what he said before you try and cite it.

 

[tom55]

hopefully you are being sarcastic

otherwise, it makes no sense what u say..

Being sarcastic about....The Kingdom of Heaven/God comment or what Protestants believe?

What is the RCC teaching about The Kingdom of Heaven compared to the Kingdom of God? From what I have read they are basically interchangeable.

 

[tom55]

Tom,

You are being obstinate.

Jesus is basic in his instruction in Matt 18:15-20 (NIV)

Jesus said that if a singular person (brother or sister) sinned against another and reconciliation was not possible, take one or two others with him/her to establish the matter. If that brother or sister refuses to reconcile, the matter is taken to the church (singular) to resolve. If final reconciliation is not possible, the brother or sister is then excommunicated, i.e. treated as a pagan or tax collector, and not allowed back into the church.

To follow this teaching at the local church level is to bind the matter on earth and in heaven. We know this is the local church because of v. 20, 'For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them'. This is not dealing with the RCC, Anglican, Methodist or Pentecostal denomination but a local church.

Oz

I agree with you, I am being obstinate: (stubbornly refusing to change one's opinion or chosen course of action, despite attempts to persuade one to do so)

When one has scripture and logic on their side why would they change their opinion?

Are you not being obstinate also?

Once again, based on YOUR logic, if I have 3 members of my local church agreeing with me about baptism being a symbol and not necessary for salvation and you have 3 members of your local church standing with you saying it saves you and is necessary for salvation WHO is right?

Both of us have God with us since there are more than two or three of us gathered together in His name. Sounds like God is confused and His infallible word is actually fallible? Both of us can't have the truth in this matter! Right?

I am not sure what you mean by "This is not dealing with the RCC, Anglican, Methodist or Pentecostal denomination but a local church."

Didn't the Pentecostal and Methodist denominations start out as "local churches"? Have they gotten to big to be considered local? Are they disqualified and not allowed to interpret Scripture?

I do not understand how you take the established churches (denominations) out of the discussion. Does their doctrine not matter?

You have me utterly confused!