The Catholic Church gets put down a lot, but it was all that could help

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tom55

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Sep 9, 2013
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StanJ said:
When did Jesus tell you to go to the RCC? He said True Believers are part of the Body of Christ which is the church, and HE is the head of His Body. At best some of the RCC, just as some of any other Christian denomination in the world, equal the church, but there will come a day in which Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats and we will find out exactly who in all those denominations, including the RCC, were truly Christian.

Sadly, Christian can equal RC but RCC doesn't necessarily equal Christian.
Jesus didn't tell me to go to the RCC. As you may have noticed I mentioned other options also. I mentioned the Baptist Church and a local church in my post also. Why did you choose to focus in on the RCC aspect of my post? Are you showing your anti-Catholic bias?

Who do you, StanJ, rely on for an infallible interpretation of Scripture?

Are you sure the "RCC doesn't necessarily equal Christian"? What is your evidence?

How can a RC be a Christian when they follow the teachings of the RCC but the RCC isn't necessarily Christian?

Who has the authority to say the RCC is wrong and the Baptist or Pentecostal or Methodist or StanJ etc. etc. are right in their teachings?
 

tom55

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StanJ said:
How can he possibly understand Protestantism if you don't and you're the one explaining it?
Protestantism defined: the faith, practice, and church order of the Protestant churches which is the adherence to the forms of Christian doctrine that are generally regarded as Protestant rather than Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.

FACT: Since Protestantism began in the early 16th Century it started a Reformation that has created thousands of different beliefs, doctrines or teachings about scripture which makes becoming a Protestant like going to a cafeteria. One can choose from thousands of different Protestant churches to attend and if the church you are attending changes their doctrine (like gay marriage) you can just go to another church and still be a Protestant. If one leaves the Catholic Church you are no longer Catholic.

FACT: Since the Reformation if you are the type that meets in your house with 5-20 other people and as a group you interpret scripture a certain way "you" are always right in your interpretation because you were guided by the Holy Spirit even if that interpretation is different than what the Church teaches. Doing this BEFORE the reformation made you a heretic. After the Reformation if you to this you are considered an up and coming (Protestant) Church!

FACT: Protestants don't believe any one church, especially the RCC, has authority here on earth. Only the church they attend or their interpretation of scripture is accurate and infallible; no one else's.

FACT: The RCC believes it has authority to infallibly interpret Scripture.

Maybe you, StanJ, can explain it better than I can???
 

OzSpen

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tom55 said:
I agree with you, I am being obstinate: (stubbornly refusing to change one's opinion or chosen course of action, despite attempts to persuade one to do so)

When one has scripture and logic on their side why would they change their opinion?

Are you not being obstinate also? :D

Once again, based on YOUR logic, if I have 3 members of my local church agreeing with me about baptism being a symbol and not necessary for salvation and you have 3 members of your local church standing with you saying it saves you and is necessary for salvation WHO is right?

Both of us have God with us since there are more than two or three of us gathered together in His name. Sounds like God is confused and His infallible word is actually fallible? Both of us can't have the truth in this matter! Right?

I am not sure what you mean by "This is not dealing with the RCC, Anglican, Methodist or Pentecostal denomination but a local church."

Didn't the Pentecostal and Methodist denominations start out as "local churches"? Have they gotten to big to be considered local? Are they disqualified and not allowed to interpret Scripture?

I do not understand how you take the established churches (denominations) out of the discussion. Does their doctrine not matter?

You have me utterly confused!
That's not answering the issues I raised about Matt 18:15-20 (NIV).
 

tom55

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OzSpen said:
That's not answering the issues I raised about Matt 18:15-20 (NIV).
If OzSpen sins against Tom55 and I go and point out your fault (just between the two of us) and you listen to me, I have won you over. But if OzSpen will not listen to Tom55 I am supposed to take one or two others from my local church (called church "A") along with me so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If OzSpen still refuse to listen to Tom55 and the 2 or 3 others I brought with me from church "A" we then go and tell it to the church "A" elders. If OzSpen still refuses to listen to them then I am to treat OzSpen as a pagan or a tax collector.

Now OzSpen thinks he is still right in this matter so he goes across the street to local church "B" and they agree with him. OzSpen then approaches Tom55 and says, "See, I am right. Church "B" and it's elders agree with me. Therefore you, Tom55, and your church (church "A") are wrong. YOU Tom55 are in fact the pagan, not me!

I then tell you that my church has the authority to bind on earth the word of God and I have faith that what my church teaches will be bound in heaven, and whatever church "A" loosens on earth will be loosed in heaven because the elders of my church are right and infallible.

And you say to me: At my church (church "B") if two of us agree about anything and we ask for it will be done for us by our Father in heaven because Scripture says 'where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them'. My elders are right, they have the authority to bind and loosen because He is in our midst when we decide on church doctrine.

So once again I ask you; Who is right? Church A or Church B? Based on your local church logic they are both right!!
 

OzSpen

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tom55 said:
If OzSpen sins against Tom55 and I go and point out your fault (just between the two of us) and you listen to me, I have won you over. But if OzSpen will not listen to Tom55 I am supposed to take one or two others from my local church (called church "A") along with me so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If OzSpen still refuse to listen to Tom55 and the 2 or 3 others I brought with me from church "A" we then go and tell it to the church "A" elders. If OzSpen still refuses to listen to them then I am to treat OzSpen as a pagan or a tax collector.

Now OzSpen thinks he is still right in this matter so he goes across the street to local church "B" and they agree with him. OzSpen then approaches Tom55 and says, "See, I am right. Church "B" and it's elders agree with me. Therefore you, Tom55, and your church (church "A") are wrong. YOU Tom55 are in fact the pagan, not me!

I then tell you that my church has the authority to bind on earth the word of God and I have faith that what my church teaches will be bound in heaven, and whatever church "A" loosens on earth will beloosed in heaven because the elders of my church are right and infallible.

And you say to me: At my church (church "B") if two of us agree about anything and we ask for it will be done for us by our Father in heaven because Scripture says 'where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them'. My elders are right, they have the authority to bind and loosen because He is in our midst when we decide on church doctrine.

So once again I ask you; Who is right? Church A or Church B? Based on your local church logic they are both right!!
Tom,

There's an important factor in your created story that is missing. If the elders of Church B know what they are doing, they'll have a meeting with the elders of Church A (even if by video link or Skype) to determine the facts of what happened with OzSpen and his sins at Church A. Church B will not depend on the testimony of OzSpen alone. He could be an unreliable witness. It could also be that the elders of Church B consider that OzSpen has been unfairly treated and deal with the matter from Church B's perspective and give OzSpen a fresh chance.

Oz
 

ScaliaFan

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tom55 said:
Jesus didn't tell me to go to the RCC.
He told me to go to the RCC

and He tells me all the time to go there.. guess we have 2 different Jesus's here We'll find out in the End who was right..
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
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OzSpen said:
Tom,

There's an important factor in your created story that is missing. If the elders of Church B know what they are doing, they'll have a meeting with the elders of Church A (even if by video link or Skype) to determine the facts of what happened with OzSpen and his sins at Church A. Church B will not depend on the testimony of OzSpen alone. He could be an unreliable witness. It could also be that the elders of Church B consider that OzSpen has been unfairly treated and deal with the matter from Church B's perspective and give OzSpen a fresh chance.

Oz

So church A and B meet via Skype and B says to A: 'Ozspen is not a sinner according to our Statement of Faith'.

A says to B 'according to our Statement of Faith he is a sinner and we are going to treat him as a pagan and tax collector'.

A and B agree to go to Church C to settle their differences. Church C says according to our Statement of Faith church A is right and church B is wrong. Church B gets pissed and says, 'Well church D agrees with our Statement of Faith.'

So now who is right? A and C or B and D?
 
B

brakelite

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I was raised and educated as a Catholic. I grew up with a mindset that should I doubt or disbelieve my church, it was a sin and I was in danger of hell. The church was the means to salvation. Through strict weekly attendance at mass every Sunday, through strict regular attendance at confession, through regular attendance at other gatherings such as "stations of the cross" etc, then while never guaranteed, I would go to heaven. The Bible was never taught. In all my 24 years as Catholic, (including several years serving as an altar boy during which time I could recite the entire mass in Latin as well as the priests) the only Bible I ever saw was the one sitting on the bookshelf of my Anglican (Episcopalian) grandmother's home.
Now and again the sermon at mass would touch on some Bible story, such as the 'good Samaritan'. The prayers however, were taken from prepackaged prayer books, recited aloud with appropriate responses (also prepackaged) from the congregation. Nothing, either in prayer, lesson, or counsel, in all my years as Catholic, came from the heart. All was as the church required. The church was my savior. The church was everyones savior. We were told, repeatedly, until it was indelibly printed on them, that without the Roman Catholic Church we could not go to heaven. This was a mindset, a very powerful dogmatic teaching based on fear, that pervades Catholicism to this day. That is why it is very difficult to discuss with Catholics good sound Biblical doctrine. They come from a different perspective altogether. To them, the Bible is not so important. What is important, imperative, indispensable to the Catholic mind, out of fear of losing ones salvation, is their church's "authority to infallibly interpret scripture". Nothing else matters.
Thus in their mind it is not scripture that is the basis for Christian faith and practice. It is what the church teaches that scripture means that is the basis for Catholic faith and practice. Thus they have replaced Christ, the Logos, Savior, sole Mediator between God and man, with a very fallible council of men called the "magisterium".
Under the guise of "authority", Rome has usurped the role of Christ as Priest, Prophet, and King in the eyes of their members. Thus Rome fulfills all the criteria required of her to be rightly called Antichrist. This the reformers fully understood and recognized. Sadly, Protestants today do not. So to you Catholics, Christ would say "come out of her My people". And don't lump all in this forum as Protestant. They are not, in fact very few would claim to be, and even less still protesting. Many would be inclined to agree with one well known non-Catholic mega church pastor who recently declared presumptuously that "the protest is over".

I would like to suggest that all Catholics read some history of Christianity from a source outside of their own church. I know from deep personal experience however that such an undertaking is extremely difficult. Conscience and fear in placing ones trust in anything or anyone other than what you have been consiioned to place ones life in takes courage. I am not asking you to believe everything you read. Nor am I asking you to go to Jack Chick or others such as he whose views are somewhat narrow. But Christian history, outside of Rome's narrow one sided restrictive paradigm, is rich in wonder at the ways God moved in changing mens' hearts from paganism and unbelief to following Jesus. From Britain to China, from Africa to Scandinavia, and all parts in between, Christianity was fully established and functioning as an organizational structure under the headship of Christ before Rome ever sent her first missionaries abroad. You may read the full story here....http://docsfiles.com/pdf_truth_triumphant.html
I understand this is a difficult concept to believe. You were taught that Rome's popes are descended directly from the apostles. That the church therefore they founded is the precise same church that Jesus founded. That Rome today is the only fully authorized legitimate depository of spiritual truth and therefore is the only true avenue to attain salvation. That is what I was taught. That is what I was brought up to implicitly trust and to never dare entertain any other possibility under fear of losing my soul. And I, like you, was lied to. Jesus is more that a babe in a manger, or a body on a cross. He is alive, serving as our sole Mediator in the heavenly sanctuary, waiting and willing to send His Spirit to any who would ask, in order that they may be led to Truth. "Come to Me and I will give you rest" He says. "Behold, I stand at the door and knock, if any one opens I will come in" He says. Never mind church authority. Come to Jesus. He is the head of the church. All others are just stones making up the body, priest, pastor, bishop, vicar, whatever. NO man has spiritual authority over another. Come to the only One who truly loves you and desires to set you free from all sin, and to set His seal of salvation upon you.
" I know the thoughts I think toward you, saith the Lord. Thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer. 29"11
 

tom55

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Sep 9, 2013
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ScaliaFan said:
He told me to go to the RCC

and He tells me all the time to go there.. guess we have 2 different Jesus's here We'll find out in the End who was right..
Dear ScaliaFan,

You have no enemy here. Unlike some on this forum I do not believe the Catholics are not Christians. If you are a well read Catholic you also know that the RCC teaches that even Protestants will go to heaven even though some Protestant churches teach that no Catholic is going to heaven.

Please take my advise and tone down your rhetoric because you are only making ALL Catholics look bad when you respond to us the way you do. Just state the facts of what your Church believes and let people decide if it is logical, backed up by scripture and Church history.

Respectfully....Tom55
 

OzSpen

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tom55 said:
So church A and B meet via Skype and B says to A: 'Ozspen is not a sinner according to our Statement of Faith'.

A says to B 'according to our Statement of Faith he is a sinner and we are going to treat him as a pagan and tax collector'.

A and B agree to go to Church C to settle their differences. Church C says according to our Statement of Faith church A is right and church B is wrong. Church B gets pissed and says, 'Well church D agrees with our Statement of Faith.'

So now who is right? A and C or B and D?
What's your point in going on and on about this? I'm not interested in dealing with any more of your hypothetical inventions.
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
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OzSpen said:
What's your point in going on and on about this? I'm not interested in dealing with any more of your hypothetical inventions.
My point is that your "local church" theory doesn't work. If I, Tom55, disagree with the elders infallible interpretation of scripture in church A and C I can just go to churches B and D who agree with my interpretation. If OzSpen likes the Statement of Faith at church B and D over A and C because it fits more in line with what he thinks then he can go there and feel comfortable knowing that he is right because his elders agree with him. This makes the infallible truth of the bible about ME and how I interpret it. This makes me infallible; not the church.

The "local church" goer must be hesitant in agreeing to the Statement of Faith made by his church elders since those statements, being fallible, could be changed at some time in the future. This happens all the time in local churches.

The local church goer relies on his own judgment above that of his church and the Statement of Faith of the church itself is judged against his interpretation of the Bible. Therefore no one has the true interpretation of Scripture, except me.

My scenario is not a "hypothetical invention". My scenario happens all the time. You can't tell me you don't know anybody who bounces from church to church because the church they were going to stopped teaching what they believe?

So my question is where and when did that truth, that infallible interpretation of the bible, go? Did God remove it from man?
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
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brakelite said:
I was raised and educated as a Catholic. I grew up with a mindset that should I doubt or disbelieve my church, it was a sin and I was in danger of hell. The church was the means to salvation. Through strict weekly attendance at mass every Sunday, through strict regular attendance at confession, through regular attendance at other gatherings such as "stations of the cross" etc, then while never guaranteed, I would go to heaven. The Bible was never taught. In all my 24 years as Catholic, (including several years serving as an altar boy during which time I could recite the entire mass in Latin as well as the priests) the only Bible I ever saw was the one sitting on the bookshelf of my Anglican (Episcopalian) grandmother's home.
Now and again the sermon at mass would touch on some Bible story, such as the 'good Samaritan'. The prayers however, were taken from prepackaged prayer books, recited aloud with appropriate responses (also prepackaged) from the congregation. Nothing, either in prayer, lesson, or counsel, in all my years as Catholic, came from the heart. All was as the church required. The church was my savior. The church was everyones savior. We were told, repeatedly, until it was indelibly printed on them, that without the Roman Catholic Church we could not go to heaven. This was a mindset, a very powerful dogmatic teaching based on fear, that pervades Catholicism to this day. That is why it is very difficult to discuss with Catholics good sound Biblical doctrine. They come from a different perspective altogether. To them, the Bible is not so important. What is important, imperative, indispensable to the Catholic mind, out of fear of losing ones salvation, is their church's "authority to infallibly interpret scripture". Nothing else matters.
Thus in their mind it is not scripture that is the basis for Christian faith and practice. It is what the church teaches that scripture means that is the basis for Catholic faith and practice. Thus they have replaced Christ, the Logos, Savior, sole Mediator between God and man, with a very fallible council of men called the "magisterium".
Under the guise of "authority", Rome has usurped the role of Christ as Priest, Prophet, and King in the eyes of their members. Thus Rome fulfills all the criteria required of her to be rightly called Antichrist. This the reformers fully understood and recognized. Sadly, Protestants today do not. So to you Catholics, Christ would say "come out of her My people". And don't lump all in this forum as Protestant. They are not, in fact very few would claim to be, and even less still protesting. Many would be inclined to agree with one well known non-Catholic mega church pastor who recently declared presumptuously that "the protest is over".

I would like to suggest that all Catholics read some history of Christianity from a source outside of their own church. I know from deep personal experience however that such an undertaking is extremely difficult. Conscience and fear in placing ones trust in anything or anyone other than what you have been consiioned to place ones life in takes courage. I am not asking you to believe everything you read. Nor am I asking you to go to Jack Chick or others such as he whose views are somewhat narrow. But Christian history, outside of Rome's narrow one sided restrictive paradigm, is rich in wonder at the ways God moved in changing mens' hearts from paganism and unbelief to following Jesus. From Britain to China, from Africa to Scandinavia, and all parts in between, Christianity was fully established and functioning as an organizational structure under the headship of Christ before Rome ever sent her first missionaries abroad. You may read the full story here....http://docsfiles.com/pdf_truth_triumphant.html
I understand this is a difficult concept to believe. You were taught that Rome's popes are descended directly from the apostles. That the church therefore they founded is the precise same church that Jesus founded. That Rome today is the only fully authorized legitimate depository of spiritual truth and therefore is the only true avenue to attain salvation. That is what I was taught. That is what I was brought up to implicitly trust and to never dare entertain any other possibility under fear of losing my soul. And I, like you, was lied to. Jesus is more that a babe in a manger, or a body on a cross. He is alive, serving as our sole Mediator in the heavenly sanctuary, waiting and willing to send His Spirit to any who would ask, in order that they may be led to Truth. "Come to Me and I will give you rest" He says. "Behold, I stand at the door and knock, if any one opens I will come in" He says. Never mind church authority. Come to Jesus. He is the head of the church. All others are just stones making up the body, priest, pastor, bishop, vicar, whatever. NO man has spiritual authority over another. Come to the only One who truly loves you and desires to set you free from all sin, and to set His seal of salvation upon you.
" I know the thoughts I think toward you, saith the Lord. Thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer. 29"11
I realize no matter what I write here will change your dislike for the Catholic Church, however, I will at least write the truth about our Christian brothers instead of the lies you have put forth. There are a lot of things we can question the RCC on (purgatory, immaculate conception etc.) but that doesn't mean we have to lie about them.

It is well documented in the NT that Jesus established a Church with authority. So if you do doubt or disbelieve what your church teaches than it is a sin and you are in danger of going to hell. So now all you have to do is figure out which church has the truth or authority to interpret and enforce (bind and loosen) the infallible word of God.

To say the Bible was never taught in all your 24 years as Catholic is utterly ridiculous. In the Latin mass you allegedly attended and in the current mass (since Vatican 2) Scripture is read to the congregation. Probably more scripture than at most Protestant denominations.

If it is true that the only Bible you ever saw was the one sitting on the bookshelf of your Anglican grandmother's home then you never stepped foot in a Catholic Church.

You allege that the prayers at mass are taken from prepackaged prayer books. From what I have read (with the link provided below) it seems the entire mass is based on words from the bible including the Lords Prayer.

You don't accept that Rome's popes are descended directly from the apostles. So I ask you braklite; When did the truth that Jesus taught the Apostles stop being taught to man? When in history did God stop giving us the truth revealed in scripture? If it hasn't been passed down from generation to generation, when did it stop? And why did God allow it to stop? Which church do you brakelite say was founded IS the precise same church that Jesus founded?

You say the RCC does not have the "authority to infallibly interpret scripture". So who does? You must have someone in mind since you have decided who DOESN"T have the authority.

http://usccb.org/bible/liturgy/
https://stpaulcenter.com/studies/lesson/lesson-one-a-biblical-introduction-to-the-mass
 

OzSpen

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tom55 said:
My point is that your "local church" theory doesn't work. If I, Tom55, disagree with the elders infallible interpretation of scripture in church A and C I can just go to churches B and D who agree with my interpretation. If OzSpen likes the Statement of Faith at church B and D over A and C because it fits more in line with what he thinks then he can go there and feel comfortable knowing that he is right because his elders agree with him. This makes the infallible truth of the bible about ME and how I interpret it. This makes me infallible; not the church.

The "local church" goer must be hesitant in agreeing to the Statement of Faith made by his church elders since those statements, being fallible, could be changed at some time in the future. This happens all the time in local churches.

The local church goer relies on his own judgment above that of his church and the Statement of Faith of the church itself is judged against his interpretation of the Bible. Therefore no one has the true interpretation of Scripture, except me.

My scenario is not a "hypothetical invention". My scenario happens all the time. You can't tell me you don't know anybody who bounces from church to church because the church they were going to stopped teaching what they believe?

So my question is where and when did that truth, that infallible interpretation of the bible, go? Did God remove it from man?
The problem is with tom55 and his interpretation.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
tom55 said:
I realize no matter what I write here will change your dislike for the Catholic Church, however, I will at least write the truth about our Christian brothers instead of the lies you have put forth. There are a lot of things we can question the RCC on (purgatory, immaculate conception etc.) but that doesn't mean we have to lie about them.

It is well documented in the NT that Jesus established a Church with authority. So if you do doubt or disbelieve what your church teaches than it is a sin and you are in danger of going to hell. So now all you have to do is figure out which church has the truth or authority to interpret and enforce (bind and loosen) the infallible word of God.

To say the Bible was never taught in all your 24 years as Catholic is utterly ridiculous. In the Latin mass you allegedly attended and in the current mass (since Vatican 2) Scripture is read to the congregation. Probably more scripture than at most Protestant denominations.

If it is true that the only Bible you ever saw was the one sitting on the bookshelf of your Anglican grandmother's home then you never stepped foot in a Catholic Church.

You allege that the prayers at mass are taken from prepackaged prayer books. From what I have read (with the link provided below) it seems the entire mass is based on words from the bible including the Lords Prayer.

You don't accept that Rome's popes are descended directly from the apostles. So I ask you braklite; When did the truth that Jesus taught the Apostles stop being taught to man? When in history did God stop giving us the truth revealed in scripture? If it hasn't been passed down from generation to generation, when did it stop? And why did God allow it to stop? Which church do you brakelite say was founded IS the precise same church that Jesus founded?

You say the RCC does not have the "authority to infallibly interpret scripture". So who does? You must have someone in mind since you have decided who DOESN"T have the authority.

http://usccb.org/bible/liturgy/
https://stpaulcenter.com/studies/lesson/lesson-one-a-biblical-introduction-to-the-mass
Please do not intimate I am lying about my experience being raised a Catholic. I was educated at Catholic schools, was an altar boy for several years, until I was 24 I knew nothing of religion other than Catholic teaching....but I never saw a Bible in a Catholic church or in a Catholic home . The only book I had was a missal. That is not a Bible despite it having some quotes.
Because we come from totally different perspectives I will not debate with you...neither of us can compromise or find middle ground. All I suggest is you read the link I provided above. If you have the courage to entertain the idea that there is another paradigm out there outside of Rome. By the way. I do not hate the church. I was never hurt, harmed, abused, or mistreated in any way, and was most certainly well educated by the priests and brothers who were my teachers. No regrets. It is simply that I have since discovered a major truth which completely disintegrates any possibility of my going back, and with good reason. Like Jesus is saying in Revelation 18..."come out of her My people". If you are His, then you need to obey His call.
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
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OzSpen said:
The problem is with tom55 and his interpretation.
I only put forth the interpretation (scenario) YOU presented. If it is inaccurate then please correct it. Otherwise your "local church" theory is not logical, biblical or historical.

I asked you three questions in my post. Would you like to make an attempt at even answering them or are you just going to act like they were not asked?
Respectfully...Tom55
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
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brakelite said:
Please do not intimate I am lying about my experience being raised a Catholic. I was educated at Catholic schools, was an altar boy for several years, until I was 24 I knew nothing of religion other than Catholic teaching....but I never saw a Bible in a Catholic church or in a Catholic home . The only book I had was a missal. That is not a Bible despite it having some quotes.
Because we come from totally different perspectives I will not debate with you...neither of us can compromise or find middle ground. All I suggest is you read the link I provided above. If you have the courage to entertain the idea that there is another paradigm out there outside of Rome. By the way. I do not hate the church. I was never hurt, harmed, abused, or mistreated in any way, and was most certainly well educated by the priests and brothers who were my teachers. No regrets. It is simply that I have since discovered a major truth which completely disintegrates any possibility of my going back, and with good reason. Like Jesus is saying in Revelation 18..."come out of her My people". If you are His, then you need to obey His call.
Once again you are wrong. The missal does not have "quotes" in it. It has bible verses in it. Three readings on Sunday and two on weekdays. Please refer to the link I provided for the truth instead of your interpretation of the truth.

I come from the perspective of looking up the facts (which were provided in the links) instead of spewing out my personal beliefs. At no time did I opine my personal beliefs. Some of the things in this post and the previous post that you have written are easy to document as NOT TRUE. When you tell a lie about someone, in this case the RCC, then it is easy to intimate that you are lying about being raised a Catholic.

Furthermore, there is no debate here. You did not tell the truth and I have proven it. I couldn't care less what the RCC teaches. But that doesn't mean you or I have to lie about it, however, I will defend my Christian brothers.

I asked you five questions in my previous post. I noticed you didn't answer any of them. I suspect it is because you can't answer any of them and back them up with facts or logic. But I could be wrong.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
tom55 said:
Once again you are wrong. The missal does not have "quotes" in it. It has bible verses in it. Three readings on Sunday and two on weekdays. Please refer to the link I provided for the truth instead of your interpretation of the truth.

The missal quotes the Bible.

I come from the perspective of looking up the facts (which were provided in the links) instead of spewing out my personal beliefs. At no time did I opine my personal beliefs. Some of the things in this post and the previous post that you have written are easy to document as NOT TRUE. When you tell a lie about someone, in this case the RCC, then it is easy to intimate that you are lying about being raised a Catholic.

The Bible is not the foundation of Catholic faith. The church, to the Catholic, is above the Bible. Why then is it so surprising to you that I did not see a Bible in church when I was growing up, or in any of my friends homes, nor in my own? The Bible was the enemy to Catholicism for centuries, and Rome sought relentlessly to destroy both it, and anyone who would dare to either copy it or any part thereof, or even read it. It was listed on the their own schedule of banned books until relatively recently. Entire communities throughout Christian history were utterly destroyed because they chose to base their faith and practice on the scriptures as opposed to the self appointed authority of the prelates of Rome. This is long before the reformation. And today, should any Catholic dare to read the Bible and discover a contradiction between what he reads and what the church teaches and practices, he will always run with the church. You know this, I know this. Stop pretending it is any different.

Furthermore, there is no debate here. You did not tell the truth and I have proven it. I couldn't care less what the RCC teaches. But that doesn't mean you or I have to lie about it, however, I will defend my Christian brothers.

While I agree with you that there are within the RCC true Christians, as even Revelation attests to, God still calls them out. They are Christian despite the church they belong to, not because of it. And cetainly not because of her teachings. And you couldn't care less what she teaches??? Really?????

I asked you five questions in my previous post. I noticed you didn't answer any of them. I suspect it is because you can't answer any of them and back them up with facts or logic. But I could be wrong.

All 5 questions were based on an assumption on your part that is false. So your questions are moot. The assumption is your belief that there is any spiritual authority given to any man over anothers conscience. Yet the RCC certainly claims that authority, not only over mans conscience, but over the scriptures themselves, even the very commandments of God!!! You are defending the indefensible.
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tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
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0
I wonder how the early Christians got to heaven since they didn't have a the bible in their Churches?

"While I agree with you that there are within the RCC true Christians....". So you, brakelite, has the authority to decide who are Christians but the RCC doesn't have ANY authority? Hmmmmm....

Got it. You can't answer the 5 questions (now 7 with this post)! I knew you wouldn't or couldn't. If you would have TRIED to answer them, based on your twisted belief in scripture and history, YOUR theory of Christianity and scripture would fall apart. My prayers are with you!
 
B

brakelite

Guest
tom55 said:
I wonder how the early Christians got to heaven since they didn't have a the bible in their Churches?

"While I agree with you that there are within the RCC true Christians....". So you, brakelite, has the authority to decide who are Christians but the RCC doesn't have ANY authority? Hmmmmm....

Got it. You can't answer the 5 questions (now 7 with this post)! I knew you wouldn't or couldn't. If you would have TRIED to answer them, based on your twisted belief in scripture and history, YOUR theory of Christianity and scripture would fall apart. My prayers are with you!
Is this a common practice of yours? Twisting what someone says in order to make a point or sound clever? Please quote me where I said early Christian churches did not have Bibles.
And if I say that there are true Christians in the Roman Catholic Church, why turn that into an 'authoritarian' statement, as if I am pronouncing judgment and condemnation upon any individual? Did not Jesus say that in the church there would be tares and wheat growing together?
You are clearly placing far too much credence on so called 'church authority'. I find that very interesting coming from someone who doesn't claim to actually be a Catholic, but is willing to defend them and their self appointed 'authority'. Who are you precisely? Are you a Jesuit pretending to be Protestant? A priest in disguise?
When you are able to defend Biblically that Rome has spiritual authority over believers, then, and only then, will I answer those 5 questions.
The problem we have is that we are discussing two different religions here. Catholicism , and Christianity. Catholicism has as its foundation for faith and practice the magisterium. A council of mortal men who decide for millions what they should believe for salvation. They get their information from scripture, and tradition, but their decisions trump both! Now you can trust your eternal destiny to them if you want, me, I'm going with the following alternative. Christianity. Christianity, the real version, trusts in the word of God. Period. Though pastors, prelates, priests, bishops, or popes, ecclesiastical councils, or theological seminaries and professors with letters after their names to prove their educational prowess would meet with me and tell me what to believe and think, I will demand from each of them without favortism or partiality a "thus saith the Lord" in support of their teaching. Yeah, I know. You have said it several times, that protestantism is made up of 1000s of different sects all claiming "truth". And of course you are absolutely correct. So what? The Bible, the Word of God, God Himself, still has promised, despite the obvious failure of many to adhere to the conditions of those promises, to send His Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, to anyone, anyone, and quote: when He, the Spirit of Truth is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak, and He will show you things to come. John 16:13.
So that so called authority that Rome claims to be the sole interpreter of scripture is a usurpation of the authority of Christ in His promise to individuals. It is the very Spirit of Antichrist.
 
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