The Catholic Church gets put down a lot, but it was all that could help

[Phoneman777]

didnt read all this b/c couldnt get beyond this falsehood

it can be traced back to Jesus, but you dont want to do your homework.

since you and I are not balanced in our u/standing of the RCC, i fail to see how we can communicate effectively

in other words, it would be nice if you had the same info i do

Read the quote from your cardinals.

 

[Phoneman777]

Catholics, hear what your own cardinals have to say:

This is an ultimatum from the cardinals of the Roman court to Pope Julius III immediately after his ascension to the papal throne in 1550. It is contained in a historical document of Reformation times that is preserved in the National Library of Paris, in Folio B#1088, vol. II, pages 641-650.
It reads:

"Of all the advice that we can offer Your Holiness, we have kept the most necessary to the last. We must open our eyes well and use all possible force in the matter, namely, to permit the reading of the Gospel as little possible, especially in the vernacular, in all those countries under your jurisdiction. Let the very little part of the Gospel suffice that is usually read in the Mass and let no one be permitted to read more. So long as the people will be content with that small amount, your interests will prosper, but as soon as the people want to read more your interests will begin to fail. The Bible is the book that, more than any other, has raised against us the tumults and tempests by which we have almost perished. In fact, if anyone examines closely and compares the teachings of the Bible with what takes place in our churches, he will soon find discord, and will realize that our teaching is often different from the Bible and oftener still, contrary to it. And if the people wake up to this, they will never stop challenging you till everything is laid bare and then we shall become the objects of universal scorn and hatred. Therefore, it is necessary to withdraw the Bible from the sight of the people, but with extreme caution, in order not to cause rebellion."

 

[tom55]

Catholics, hear what your own cardinals have to say:
This is an ultimatum from the cardinals of the Roman court to Pope Julius III immediately after his ascension to the papal throne in 1550. It is contained in a historical document of Reformation times that is preserved in the National Library of Paris, in Folio B#1088, vol. II, pages 641-650.
It reads:
"Of all the advice that we can offer Your Holiness, we have kept the most necessary to the last. We must open our eyes well and use all possible force in the matter, namely, to permit the reading of the Gospel as little possible, especially in the vernacular, in all those countries under your jurisdiction. Let the very little part of the Gospel suffice that is usually read in the Mass and let no one be permitted to read more. So long as the people will be content with that small amount, your interests will prosper, but as soon as the people want to read more your interests will begin to fail. The Bible is the book that, more than any other, has raised against us the tumults and tempests by which we have almost perished. In fact, if anyone examines closely and compares the teachings of the Bible with what takes place in our churches, he will soon find discord, and will realize that our teaching is often different from the Bible and oftener still, contrary to it. And if the people wake up to this, they will never stop challenging you till everything is laid bare and then we shall become the objects of universal scorn and hatred. Therefore, it is necessary to withdraw the Bible from the sight of the people, but with extreme caution, in order not to cause rebellion."

I guess your response means you chose not to go to the website I provided (National Library of Paris) to seek the truth yourself? The link I provided has a copy of the letter that you have quoted. You can view the original letter yourself AND contact them about the letter.

Why wouldn't you want to know the truth? Why wouldn't you contact the owner of the letter and ask them about it's validity?

I feel sorry for you. Your anti-Catholic bias has made you blind. There are plenty of things we can disagree with the RCC on. That doesn't mean we have to spread lies about them. Especially lies that are easily debunked....Like the "historical document" you quoted.

 

[Phoneman777]

I guess your response means you chose not to go to the website I provided (National Library of Paris) to seek the truth yourself? The link I provided has a copy of the letter that you have quoted. You can view the original letter yourself AND contact them about the letter.

Why wouldn't you want to know the truth? Why wouldn't you contact the owner of the letter and ask them about it's validity?

I feel sorry for you. Your anti-Catholic bias has made you blind. There are plenty of things we can disagree with the RCC on. That doesn't mean we have to spread lies about them. Especially lies that are easily debunked....Like the "historical document" you quoted.

How about you provide a direct link to the document itself? I'd like to see what is there.

Or better yet, how about copying and pasting the "truthful" letter that you claim refutes the version that I posted?

 

[mjrhealth]

The catholic church has authority over catholics because they give themselves to it and accept its authority, if they did not it would have none over them, but that could be said for any man made church. It has no authority from God, her time will come, she has mocked God, undone all the good works of Jesus, and enslaved men to herself.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

But as scaliafan said, we do this for those who are not cathlolics so they can see.

And Jesus said. "I am the way the truth and the life"

And teh truth (Jesus) will set you free. Some prefer bondage. or as Moses said.

Exo_9:1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.

But the people prefer slavery and Pharaoh will not let Gods people go.

There is nothing new under the sun...

 

[epostle1]

Catholics, hear what your own cardinals have to say:

This is an ultimatum from the cardinals of the Roman court to Pope Julius III immediately after his ascension to the papal throne in 1550. It is contained in a historical document of Reformation times that is preserved in the National Library of Paris, in Folio B#1088, vol. II, pages 641-650.
It reads:

"Of all the advice that we can offer Your Holiness, we have kept the most necessary to the last. We must open our eyes well and use all possible force in the matter, namely, to permit the reading of the Gospel as little possible, especially in the vernacular, in all those countries under your jurisdiction. Let the very little part of the Gospel suffice that is usually read in the Mass and let no one be permitted to read more. So long as the people will be content with that small amount, your interests will prosper, but as soon as the people want to read more your interests will begin to fail. The Bible is the book that, more than any other, has raised against us the tumults and tempests by which we have almost perished. In fact, if anyone examines closely and compares the teachings of the Bible with what takes place in our churches, he will soon find discord, and will realize that our teaching is often different from the Bible and oftener still, contrary to it. And if the people wake up to this, they will never stop challenging you till everything is laid bare and then we shall become the objects of universal scorn and hatred. Therefore, it is necessary to withdraw the Bible from the sight of the people, but with extreme caution, in order not to cause rebellion."

Your quote is phony.

I found the entire quote rather strange-sounding and suspicious. Being fluent in French, I decided to e-mail the National Library's reference desk to find out the truth. The reference librarian e-mailed me back. This is what he had to say:
"The text that you have inquired about is a satirical-style criticism of the papacy, published in 1553, under the title Consilium quorundam episcoporum Bononiae congregatorum quod de ratione stabiliendae Romanae ecclesiae Iulio P.M. datum est. [The counsel of certain bishops of Bologna having been convened for the reason of stabilizing the Roman church (that) was given to Julius, P(ontifex) M(aximus) .]
Its author, Paolo Pietro Vegerio (1498-1565), was bishop of Modrusch, then of Capo d'Istria, from which he left to join the Reformation around 1549. In it he paints a picture of three bishops advising Pope Julius II on the best way to reestablish the authority of the papacy. Among the advice they give him is the introduction of new ceremonies (which are described in intricate detail) as well as the destruction of Bibles translated into any living languages.
"This text is one of many works published by Vegerio as part of the violent polemics by which he opposed the papacy after his break with the Church of Rome [the librarian quotes a German study written in 1893]. It has since been used in numerous debates between Catholics and Protestants. It is thus that extracts from the original booklet-all more or less altered from the French translation-were published by Paul Besson in his Consultation de trois évêques sur les moyens de soutenir l'Eglise romaine présentés au pape Jules II en 1553, [Consultation of three bishops on the means of supporting the Roman Church presented to Pope Julius II in 1553] Rouillac, 1884 (extract from Witness to the Truth), as well as by the journal Truth, published in Jerusalem, in its edition of November 3, 1911. We do not have a copy of this journal in the National Library of France.
"Since requests similar to yours have been rather common over the years, we have prepared microfiche versions of three different editions of this work, and you may order copies of them from our Photographic Service." He goes on to list the bibliographic citations for the three Latin and French editions in their library collection, which are available for public inspection.
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/another-anti-catholic-myth-exposed

I found this to be extremely helpful, since it clarifies that this is not (as is claimed) a "historical document" but is merely a creative piece of fiction written by a rebel bishop to mock the papacy and the Catholic Church after his own defection.
Run along to the next anti-Catholic LIE you guys love so much.

 

[tom55]

How about you provide a direct link to the document itself? I'd like to see what is there.

Or better yet, how about copying and pasting the "truthful" letter that you claim refutes the version that I posted?

If one wants to learn the truth it takes a little work. Like I said before: I know it is a waste of my time for me to tell you that what you have quoted above is not accurate. You can do your own research, like I have, and find the truth.

However, you don't want to know the truth and I strongly believe even if I would have provided you with a direct link to ANYTHING that proves what you are saying is wrong, you still wouldn't accept it.

With all that said I see that kepha31 has already provided some good information for you to get started on your own search for the truth. IF you do your own research you would learn that the letter IS REAL, however, there is more to the story. This "letter" is well known AND it is well known to historians to be insignificant.

Like I said before....There are a lot of things the RCC and other denominations have wrong with them. We don't have to tell lies about our Christian brothers just because we disagree with their dogma/doctrine.

I am also of the opinion when you complete your research and you find out what you posted is a shameless attack on our Catholic brothers/sisters on this forum that you should apologize to them.

 

[tom55]

Practices of Catholicism can't be traced to Jesus?

Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins and that has allegedly been passed down for 2000 years to priest.

Book of James gave anointing of the sick powers to the elders of the church and the RCC still practices that.

At the last supper Jesus said do this (communion) in rememberence of me and scripture says the apostles did it, the early Christians did it and the RCC still does it today.

They baptize with water and believe it is necessary and saves you just like the bible says and the early Christians practiced.

They have set up a hierarchy just like Jesus did, the scriptures say to do and the early Christians did do.

Those are just a few examples of what scripture says and the RCC does. IF I researched it deeper I could add to the list.

What denomination practices everything that Jesus and the Apostles taught and the early Christians practiced?

I am quoting myself because you, PHONEMAN777, never addressed the above quoted points of fact that conflicts with your version of the truth. Instead you decided to take us down another rabbit trail (that happened to be a lie).

 

[epostle1]

I appreciate you're having watched it. I disagree fully with your conclusion that it is full of inaccuracies. You haven't cited any specific objections to its account of history, which I would love to hear. It is indisputable fact that the Catholic church oppressed those who refused to trust in anything but God alone for salvation, that she banned the owning or reading of the Bible by anyone except her priests, that she waged war against the Bible of the Protestants, and that she still to this day claims the adherence to the Bible alone is insufficient for salvation.

This is typical anti-Catholic polemics, and all these lies get refuted and debunked constantly. What did the Catholic Church ever do to you? Do you see Catholics making videos and web sites misrepresenting any Protestant church? What ever happened to the 8th Commandment: "You shall not bear false witness...???
Show me one verse, even half a verse, that pits the Bible against the Church the way you do.

 

[epostle1]

If one wants to learn the truth it takes a little work. Like I said before: I know it is a waste of my time for me to tell you that what you have quoted above is not accurate. You can do your own research, like I have, and find the truth.

However, you don't want to know the truth and I strongly believe even if I would have provided you with a direct link to ANYTHING that proves what you are saying is wrong, you still wouldn't accept it.

With all that said I see that kepha31 has already provided some good information for you to get started on your own search for the truth. IF you do your own research you would learn that the letter IS REAL, however, there is more to the story. This "letter" is well known AND it is well known to historians to be insignificant.

The letter is real, but badly abused. It is presented under false pretenses. And no, it is NOT well known to historians because historians don't bother with fiction. but only to ignorant anti-Catholics who think they have a prize. It. is not (as is claimed) a "historical document" but is merely a creative piece of fiction written by a rebel bishop to mock the papacy and the Catholic Church after his own defection. Historians don't bother with fiction.

Like I said before....There are a lot of things the RCC and other denominations have wrong with them. We don't have to tell lies about our Christian brothers just because we disagree with their dogma/doctrine.

That's not disagreement, it's propaganda. 90% of what anti-Catholics think is true about Catholicism IS FALSE.

I am also of the opinion when you complete your research and you find out what you posted is a shameless attack on our Catholic brothers/sisters on this forum that you should apologize to them.

Don't hold your breath, but thanks, Tom.
The tactic that anti-Catholics use when lies are exposed is to change the topic, or abandon the thread, or list 5 or more objections. They are too full of pride to be corrected.

 

[ScaliaFan]

Read the quote from your cardinals.

what quote?

i dont have to read a thing. I have done extensive reading of Catholic Church documents and books by practicing Catholics... NON-fiction

been reading such for years and years.. along with reading the Bible.. hearing the Bible read to me every Sunday (and during the wk) during Mass.. for year and years now

But even more important are my experiences...

dont know what quote u r referring to anyway

 

[ScaliaFan]

This is typical anti-Catholic polemics, and all these lies get refuted and debunked constantly. What did the Catholic Church ever do to you? Do you see Catholics making videos and web sites misrepresenting any Protestant church? What ever happened to the 8th Commandment: "You shall not bear false witness...???
Show me one verse, even half a verse, that pits the Bible against the Church the way you do.

yes, it is pretty tiresome

its like anticatholics' minds just snap shut like a steel trap when they hear the "watchword" Catholic!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mjrhealth]

its like anticatholics' minds

There is no such thing as anticatholic, its just that we oppose the things that are a lie and against God, Would you like us to agree with a lie.?? If we ageed with catholich doctrine we would have to oppose God, the bible Jesus and teh truth for Jesus is the truth yet no one asks Him, The whole catholich doctirne and church is built upon one simple lie.

 

[ScaliaFan]

Fair enough. I agree you never said that. As a history buff I also believe the Catholic Church is the original church based on historical writings/documentation etc.

did Jesus need some big changes to be made to His Church by the human Luther and others (Zwingli, etc..)??

If it aint broke dont fix it.. People in the Church are broken, for SURE but the Church... He said even the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church (as they prevail against mere humans..)...

 

[ScaliaFan]

There is no such thing as anticatholic, its just that we oppose the things that are a lie and against God, Would you like us to agree with a lie.?? If we ageed with catholich doctrine we would have to oppose God, the bible Jesus and teh truth for Jesus is the truth yet no one asks Him, The whole catholich doctirne and church is built upon one simple lie.

just b/c u think something is a lie does not make it a lie

that is called subjectivity

 

[mjrhealth]

that is called subjectivity

Yes subject to teh truth, You should read your bible and look and see how the CC contradicts all that is good and from God, you shoudl look into its History, but just like those whi deny the holocaust ever happened im sure you will deny your churches past, than you can look into all tha tis happeing in it now. If that is your God??

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

YEs sometimes we ignore what is true because we dont like what we see. She was only the first of many. " teh mother of". Thats why there is a whole topic on "why are people leaving the church".

 

[epostle1]

Yes subject to teh truth, You should read your bible and look and see how the CC contradicts all that is good and from God,

That is an opinion..

you shoudl look into its History, but just like those whi deny the holocaust ever happened im sure you will deny your churches past,

Catholics don't deny history, we have lots of history books and university professors teaching real history, not sensational lies by wanna-be preachers with fake degrees.
you can look into all tha tis happeing in it now.

[/QUOTE]What exactly is that supposed to mean??

If that is your God??

God has nothing to do with the false caricature you have allowed to be drilled into your brain. Your concept of the Church is not in reality. Catholics don't hide the fact that there were sinners in it, and still are. Do you permit sinners into your church? Or just perfect Christians?

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Some anti-Catholics claim the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18. Dave Hunt, in his 1994 book, A Woman Rides the Beast, presents nine arguments to try to prove this. His claims are a useful summary of those commonly used by Fundamentalists, and an examination of them shows why they don’t work.

LIE #8: Sheds the Blood of Saints
Hunt states, "John next notices that the woman is drunk—not with alcohol but with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus . . . [cf. verse 6]." He then advances charges of brutality and killing by the Inquisitions, supposed forced conversions of nations, and even the Nazi holocaust!

This section of the book abounds with historical errors, not the least of which is his implication that the Church endorses the forced conversion of nations. The Church emphatically does not do so. It has condemned forced conversions as early as the third century (before then they were scarcely even possible), and has formally condemned them on repeated occasions, as in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 160, 1738, 1782, 2106–7).

But pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem do fit the description of a city drunk with the blood of saints and the martyrs of Jesus. And since they were notorious persecutors of Christians, the original audience would have automatically thought of one of these two as the city that persecutes Christians, not an undreamed-of Christian Rome that was centuries in the future.
Hunting the Whore of Babylon

 

[epostle1]

you shoudl look into its History, but just like those whi deny the holocaust ever happened im sure you will deny your churches past,

Catholics don't deny anything. What I deny is the false propaganda and exaggerations that anti-Catholics have been pumping out for 500 years. Being proven false about anything doesn't stop them from LIEING. Myths about the Inquisition and the Crusades have been debunked by modern scholarship, so I am well prepared to refute the endless drum pounding. Maybe you should look into the history of your roots and we'll see who is in denial.


The Protestant Inquisition: “Reformation” Intolerance and Persecution
(citations from non-Catholic and secular scholars)

 

[Phoneman777]

Your quote is phony.

I found the entire quote rather strange-sounding and suspicious. Being fluent in French, I decided to e-mail the National Library's reference desk to find out the truth. The reference librarian e-mailed me back. This is what he had to say:
"The text that you have inquired about is a satirical-style criticism of the papacy, published in 1553, under the title Consilium quorundam episcoporum Bononiae congregatorum quod de ratione stabiliendae Romanae ecclesiae Iulio P.M. datum est. [The counsel of certain bishops of Bologna having been convened for the reason of stabilizing the Roman church (that) was given to Julius, P(ontifex) M(aximus) .]
Its author, Paolo Pietro Vegerio (1498-1565), was bishop of Modrusch, then of Capo d'Istria, from which he left to join the Reformation around 1549. In it he paints a picture of three bishops advising Pope Julius II on the best way to reestablish the authority of the papacy. Among the advice they give him is the introduction of new ceremonies (which are described in intricate detail) as well as the destruction of Bibles translated into any living languages.
"This text is one of many works published by Vegerio as part of the violent polemics by which he opposed the papacy after his break with the Church of Rome [the librarian quotes a German study written in 1893]. It has since been used in numerous debates between Catholics and Protestants. It is thus that extracts from the original booklet-all more or less altered from the French translation-were published by Paul Besson in his Consultation de trois évêques sur les moyens de soutenir l'Eglise romaine présentés au pape Jules II en 1553, [Consultation of three bishops on the means of supporting the Roman Church presented to Pope Julius II in 1553] Rouillac, 1884 (extract from Witness to the Truth), as well as by the journal Truth, published in Jerusalem, in its edition of November 3, 1911. We do not have a copy of this journal in the National Library of France.
"Since requests similar to yours have been rather common over the years, we have prepared microfiche versions of three different editions of this work, and you may order copies of them from our Photographic Service." He goes on to list the bibliographic citations for the three Latin and French editions in their library collection, which are available for public inspection.
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/another-anti-catholic-myth-exposed

I found this to be extremely helpful, since it clarifies that this is not (as is claimed) a "historical document" but is merely a creative piece of fiction written by a rebel bishop to mock the papacy and the Catholic Church after his own defection.
Run along to the next anti-Catholic LIE you guys love so much.

So, does this mean that Papal rites and teachings are completely in line with the Bible?

 

[mjrhealth]

Catholics don't deny anything. What I deny is the false propaganda and exaggerations that anti-Catholics have been pumping out for 500 years. Being proven false about anything doesn't stop them from LIEING. Myths about the Inquisition and the Crusades have been debunked by modern scholarship, so I am well prepared to refute the endless drum pounding. Maybe you should look into the history of your roots and we'll see who is in denial.

My roots are in Christ, may I ask where yours are?? Debuked, so far never read any such thing. Spent a whole year reading a book about the history of Jeruslem and teh role teh CC had to play, it would seeme amazing thet the romans would be sickened by what the crusaders did.... And that was not the only one. You glorify the Pope, call Him father which God asked us not to do, you have more people between you and Jesus than there are in a gfootball team. Most of your churches doctrines and doings are at odds with the bible, you can surely read that for yourself, even that you would try find a way to justify it. But this I do not do for you, as it says, the blind follow the blind and the yall fall into the ditch. See you are without excuse. you have bing shown the light but rejected it, I do hope you know what that means.

Joh_8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.