The Christian Church today is to be condemned/cursed.

[Johnlove]

[SIZE=16pt]Paul told us that if anyone preaches a Word different then the apostles taught they are to be condemned/cursed.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The Church does not preach what the apostles preached.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Matthew 5:38-48) “You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. -------------“[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will not fail you, in Heaven where no thief can reach it and no moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Jerusalem Bible[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Galatians 1:7-8) “Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some troublemakers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one you have already heard, he is to be condemned.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]New Jerusalem Bible [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Galatians 1:6-9) “I am astonished that you are so promptly turning away from the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are going over to a different gospel- not that it is another gospel; except that there are trouble-makers among you who are seeking to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we ourselves or an angel from heaven preaches to you a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let God's curse be on him. I repeat again what we declared before: anyone who preaches to you a gospel other than the one you were first given is to be under God's curse.”[/SIZE]

 

[heretoeternity]

Matthew 5 Love your enemies, pray for your enemies...seems to be completely ignored by the "christianity" today..in fact, many preach the opposite, go to war and kill, kill, kill those that disagree with you.
God created, in Genesis 2 the 7th day of the first week on which He rested, He blessed the day and set it aside as Holy..a Holy day from God to be observed each week, on the last day of the week to give thanks to God, for Prayer, for fellowship with God, and fellow followers of Jesus, and to rest and rejuvenate onself physically, psychologically, emotionally and spiritually..He put it in the ten commandments..as the fourth "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy"..Ex 20
"christianity" today would sooner follow ancient Babylon and Rome, and their pagan sun god worship day of the first day of the week (sun day) and all their holidays of easter, dec 25th, and even many follow Oct 31/Nov 1 and try to call it holy...will God bless such institutions...why would He?

 

[Johnlove]

Matthew 5 Love your enemies, pray for your enemies...seems to be completely ignored by the "christianity" today..in fact, many preach the opposite, go to war and kill, kill, kill those that disagree with you.
God created, in Genesis 2 the 7th day of the first week on which He rested, He blessed the day and set it aside as Holy..a Holy day from God to be observed each week, on the last day of the week to give thanks to God, for Prayer, for fellowship with God, and fellow followers of Jesus, and to rest and rejuvenate onself physically, psychologically, emotionally and spiritually..He put it in the ten commandments..as the fourth "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy"..Ex 20
"christianity" today would sooner follow ancient Babylon and Rome, and their pagan sun god worship day of the first day of the week (sun day) and all their holidays of easter, dec 25th, and even many follow Oct 31/Nov 1 and try to call it holy...will God bless such institutions...why would He?

[SIZE=16pt]Jesus created the Sabbath for man, not God. Jesus gave man a day of rest, and it was not for God. God does not take a day off, if he did we would all die.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Mark 2:27-28)”[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] And he said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath; so the Son of man is master even of the Sabbath.'[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Paul tells us not to let anyone tell us we need to observe the Sabbath.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Colossians 2:13-22) “You were dead, because you were sinners and uncircumcised in body: he has brought you to life with him, he has forgiven us every one of our sins. He has wiped out the record of our debt to the Law, which stood against us; he has destroyed it by nailing it to the cross; and he has stripped the sovereignties and the ruling forces, and paraded them in public, behind him in his triumphal procession. Then never let anyone criticize you for what you eat or drink, or about observance of annual festivals, New Moons or Sabbaths. These are only a shadow of what was coming: the reality is the body of Christ. Do not be cheated of your prize by anyone who chooses to grovel to angels and worship them, pinning every hope on visions received, vainly puffed up by a human way of thinking; such a person has no connection to the Head, by which the whole body, given all that it needs and held together by its joints and sinews, grows with the growth given by God. If you have really died with Christ to the principles of this world, why do you still let rules dictate to you, as though you were still living in the world? -'Do not pick up this, do not eat that, do not touch the other,' and all about things which perish even while they are being used -- according to merely human commandments and doctrines! In these rules you can indeed find what seems to be good sense -- the cultivation of the will, and a humility which takes no account of the body; but in fact they have no value against self-indulgence.”[/SIZE]

 

[Wormwood]

Johnlove,

If you are going to start a thread with a provocative topic like, "The Christian Church Today is to be condemned" then you should add a little explanation. Listing 10 verses does nothing to help me understand your point. In what way do you feel the Christian Church does not embrace these verses? How is the Christian Church changing the gospel? Are you arguing for pacifism? If so, in what way is the Christian Church engaging in violence? Do you think these verses about not resisting an evil person apply equally to governments? If so, why does Paul say that the government is God's tool to punish the evildoer (cf. Rom. 13:4)?

Again, I'd be happy to engage in a conversation with you, if I knew what point you were trying to make.

 

[Johnlove]

Johnlove,

If you are going to start a thread with a provocative topic like, "The Christian Church Today is to be condemned" then you should add a little explanation. Listing 10 verses does nothing to help me understand your point. In what way do you feel the Christian Church does not embrace these verses? How is the Christian Church changing the gospel? Are you arguing for pacifism? If so, in what way is the Christian Church engaging in violence? Do you think these verses about not resisting an evil person apply equally to governments? If so, why does Paul say that the government is God's tool to punish the evildoer (cf. Rom. 13:4)?

Again, I'd be happy to engage in a conversation with you, if I knew what point you were trying to make.

[SIZE=16pt]Let me start with your question: “Are you arguing for pacifism?”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Christians were pacifist before Constantine the Great. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Paul saying what the government authorities were to do, and it has nothing to do with a Christian. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Governments are to govern the world. Christians are not of the world.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Governments make laws and have to enforce those laws.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](1 Timothy 1:8-11) “We know, of course, that the Law is good, but only provided it is treated like any law, in the understanding that laws are not framed for people who are good. On the contrary, they are for criminals and revolutionaries, for the irreligious and the wicked, for the sacrilegious and the irreverent; they are for people who kill their fathers or mothers and for murderers, for those who are immoral with women or with boys or with men, for liars and for perjurers and for everything else that is contrary to the sound teaching that goes with the Good News of the glory of the blessed God, the gospel that was entrusted to me.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]So that governments are not Christians and do not live God’s Word.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Only a few Churches teach pacifism. The rest Paul said they are to be condemned/cursed.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Then you need to look at what the apostles taught about sin. I don’t believe there is a denominational church that teaches what John taught about sin. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Again if a church does not teach what the apostles taught then they are to be condemned/cursed.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Have I given you enough points to discuss? [/SIZE]

 

[Mr.Bride]

His Church is the Bride...The true Church

The ten virgin..the wise is the Bride that will be caught up(taptured) and the foolish are "sleepy Christians" that will endure the tribulation period. They'll make it to heaven though

 

[Johnlove]

His Church is the Bride...The true Church

The ten virgin..the wise is the Bride that will be caught up(taptured) and the foolish are "sleepy Christians" that will endure the tribulation period. They'll make it to heaven though

[SIZE=16pt]Yes God established his Church and his Church disobeyed him. So God has let his Church defend for its self.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The Church became so corrupt that ungodly people were allowed to try and reform it.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The Church today has evil priest who the bishops, who are supposed to be apostles, because they have not walked in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, did not even have the gift of discernment to know of those evil priest.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Those evil priest were teaching people about God? They were changing bread, and wine to be the body and blood of Jesus Christ?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]If God’s Holy Spirit was active in the Church then none of the above could have happened.[/SIZE]

 

[justaname]

"The Christian Church today is to be condemned/cursed"
You speak condemnation onto that which you cannot perceive for God's word teaches...

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.

You speak a gospel of works...what we must do to make our selves worthy. This you seek in vain, and you are guilty of the sin of vanity...as it is written.

Ecclesiastes 1:1-2
1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
2 “aVanity of vanities,” says the Preacher,
“Vanity of vanities! All is vanity.”


As to the apostle's teachings of the gospel...

1 Corinthians 15:1-8

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
7 then He appeared to aJames, then to all the apostles;
8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

This is the gospel that I preach and I speak no other...I am in the Church...I am not condemned or cursed. There is nothing to be added to this gospel else you are changing the good news preaching a different gospel.

As to righteousness and salvation...

Romans 10:8-11
8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

Finally...

13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.
14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

And the commandments of God...

1 John 3:23
23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

By seeking to fulfill a checklist of deeds in the Bible in order to receive salvation results in vanity and condemnation. This is because you seek your own righteousness and not the righteousness God provides. Blessed is he who's transgressions are forgiven, who's sin is covered. It is the blood of Christ that covers, not your works. Do not be deceived or attempt to twist what I say because he who practices righteousness is righteous. But in the same breath there is none who is righteous, no not one. This is why we have an advocate, Jesus the Christ.

As to my possessions...there is nothing I have that God has not given...all things are His. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. As to resisting the wicked...it is the principle of love that is being expressed in this teaching. We are all in the process of sanctification. If it is even possible, only those present with the Lord can claim completion of that process. This same concept applies to sin. If you believe you have no sin, you must face your own pride and vanity, and you make yourself a liar for the truth is not in you.

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Do not curse what God has blessed.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

johnlove,

I agree with most of what you say, but allow me to add a little more.

There are many church denominations and they can’t all be peaching truth. Who do we know that did preach truth? The apostles.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

How can one find the church that Jesus built? We must study what Peter and the apostles preached.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Most prophecy teachers today are false prophets, stay away from them that change meanings of words such as “I come shortly” and/or “the time is at hand” as if Jesus was talking to our generation, instead of the generation that he was actually speaking to, the apostles generation.

1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
First truth is that Jesus is God.

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Second truth is that we must confess that Jesus is God.

1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
Third truth is that if we are of God, we have God in us (Holy Ghost).

1Jn 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
Forth truth avoid those that speak of this world instead of God’s world, which is the spiritual world. Jesus said he was not of this world.

1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Fifth truth is that if we know God we have paid close attention and understand what Peter and the apostles taught. This is how we know truth.

There is more, but the above will help one find “the” church that has truth. We know it is still around for the bible tells us the gates of hell can not destroy it.

 

[Johnlove]

johnlove,

I agree with most of what you say, but allow me to add a little more.

There are many church denominations and they can’t all be peaching truth. Who do we know that did preach truth? The apostles.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

How can one find the church that Jesus built? We must study what Peter and the apostles preached.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Most prophecy teachers today are false prophets, stay away from them that change meanings of words such as “I come shortly” and/or “the time is at hand” as if Jesus was talking to our generation, instead of the generation that he was actually speaking to, the apostles generation.

1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
First truth is that Jesus is God.

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Second truth is that we must confess that Jesus is God.

1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
Third truth is that if we are of God, we have God in us (Holy Ghost).

1Jn 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
Forth truth avoid those that speak of this world instead of God’s world, which is the spiritual world. Jesus said he was not of this world.

1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Fifth truth is that if we know God we have paid close attention and understand what Peter and the apostles taught. This is how we know truth.

There is more, but the above will help one find “the” church that has truth. We know it is still around for the bible tells us the gates of hell can not destroy it.

[SIZE=16pt]The following scripture is just some of what needs to be done in the Church you believe is the one true Church, to make it once again God’s Church.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Church need to preach what John taught.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]What Jesus said.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] (Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”[/SIZE]

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will[/SIZE]

 

[HearGod]

[SIZE=16pt]Jesus created the Sabbath for man...[/SIZE]

Jesus created the Sabbath? Do you have a Bible verse to support this "strange" statement?

There are many church denominations and they can’t all be peaching truth. Who do we know that did preach truth? The apostles.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

How can one find the church that Jesus built? We must study what Peter and the apostles preached.

...

upon this rock I will build my church

If this translation of Matthew 16:18 that you quoted is correct, we should search and try to find "that" rock, which Jesus (not Peter or any other apostle) is building (or had built) His (not Peter's or any other's) church upon. Don't miss out on the rock/footstall, which Peter confessed what the Father God Who is/was in the heavens unveiled to him earlier in verse 16.

Cheerio, bro!

 

[Trekson]

HearGod, I would assume he is speaking of this scripture. Mark 2:27-28 - "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."

 

[Johnlove]

Jesus created the Sabbath? Do you have a Bible verse to support this "strange" statement?


upon this rock I will build my church

If this translation of Matthew 16:18 that you quoted is correct, we should search and try to find "that" rock, which Jesus (not Peter or any other apostle) is building (or had built) His (not Peter's or any other's) church upon. Don't miss out on the rock/footstall, which Peter confessed what the Father God Who is/was in the heavens unveiled to him earlier in verse 16.

Cheerio, bro!

[SIZE=16pt](Mark 2:27-28)”[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] And he said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath; so the Son of man is master even of the Sabbath.'[/SIZE]

 

[HearGod]

HearGod, I would assume he is speaking of this scripture. Mark 2:27-28 - "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."

Yes, I guessed as much. Thanks.


[SIZE=16pt]Jesus created the Sabbath for man...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Mark 2:27-28)”[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] And he said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath; so the Son of man is master even of the Sabbath.'[/SIZE]

All texts omit both the words [SIZE=16pt]created[/SIZE] and [SIZE=16pt]made[/SIZE] in these 2 verses that you quoted. It does not read: Jesus or the Son of man created/made the Sabbath. In fact, nowhere in these 2 verses does it speaks of:
1) The Sabbath was originated BY who, or
2) How the Sabbath came about, or
3) FROM whom the Sabbath came about.

Moreover, all texts omit both the conjunctions [SIZE=16pt]for[/SIZE]. Anyway, let me show you a proper/unbiased/honest-to-God English translation of these 2 verses:

Mark
2:27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath became because of the *human, [and] not the *human [became] because of the *Sabbath.
2:28 Therefore, the son of the *human is [a] lord also of the *Sabbath.”

because of... because of -- prepositions
*human... *human... *Sabbath... *human... *Sabbath -- All in singular.

the *human -- And who is this human? Is this human a man (say, Adam), or a woman (say, Eve), or both Adam and Eve (say, the first Adam)?????

--------------

And just for laughs:

[SIZE=16pt]The Holy Spirit created the Sabbath for man...[/SIZE]

is an equally "strange" statement.


Cheerio, bro!

 

[Wormwood]

Johnlove,

FIrst of all, pacifism is not the Gospel. Thus, your blanket condemnation of the church over such an issue is misguided. I do not read anywhere that Paul's gospel was: That Christ died, was buried and was raised....and therefore we should all be pacifists. I appreciate the desire to be passionate about a topic, but when your passion causes you to "condemn" everyone who holds a different view, you are explicitly going against the teaching of the Bible on "debatable matters."

Second, Jesus was a Jew. The Torah was quite plain that there were differences between civil authorities and the response of the individual. In fact, God condemned governments that refused to punish the evildoer.

Third, the idea that punishment and war is ONLY for the unbeliever is quite a double standard. How can you expect the government to be godly, yet not permit any Christians in such a role? I dont think that our call to be not "of the world" meant we could not hold civil jobs. That is a hermeneutical leap..and to suggest that people are denying the Gospel if they do not make that leap is a problem. The fact is, the text doesnt say that the civil authorities could not be Christian. Rather, we see the early church did have some prominent people who converted to Christ. So, you are adding a concept to the text to make it say what you want it to say. Furthermore, I find it striking that the civil government would be God's vessel for punishing evil, and yet its evil for Christians to be a part of punishing evil. If it is good to punish evil, then I dont know why it matters if its an unbeliever doing the punishing or a believer. This concept makes no sense to me.

Fourth, John the Baptist called soldiers to repent. When they asked what they should "do", John did not reply, "quit the military." In fact, Jesus praised many Roman soldiers for their faith...and never called them to abandon their role in the military. They were only told to not abuse their power.

Fifth, even if pacifism was a NT concept, you still havent shown how the church today is advocating war and violence. Most people I know in church are not in the military and are not advocating for us to go to war with anyone. So, I dont see your point.

 

[HearGod]

Johnlove,

...

Fifth, even if pacifism was a NT concept, you still havent shown how the church today is advocating war and violence. Most people I know in church are not in the military and are not advocating for us to go to war with anyone. So, I dont see your point.

I think I am safe and at peace with Johnlove to concur with you on this point.

 

[Johnlove]

Johnlove,

FIrst of all, pacifism is not the Gospel. Thus, your blanket condemnation of the church over such an issue is misguided. I do not read anywhere that Paul's gospel was: That Christ died, was buried and was raised....and therefore we should all be pacifists. I appreciate the desire to be passionate about a topic, but when your passion causes you to "condemn" everyone who holds a different view, you are explicitly going against the teaching of the Bible on "debatable matters."
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus told us that we were to love our enemies. Going to war with our enemies is not loving them. The Government of the world is for evil doers. Christians are not evil doers and do not need laws, and law enforcers. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]A Christian in the world’s government would be obliged to disobey God’s Word, and he or she cannot do that.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]A Christian obeys God not man.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Acts 4:19-20) “You must judge whether in God’s eyes it is right to listen to you and not to God. We cannot promise to stop proclaiming what we have seen and heard.”[/SIZE]
Second, Jesus was a Jew. The Torah was quite plain that there were differences between civil authorities and the response of the individual. In fact, God condemned governments that refused to punish the evildoer.

Third, the idea that punishment and war is ONLY for the unbeliever is quite a double standard. How can you expect the government to be godly, yet not permit any Christians in such a role? I dont think that our call to be not "of the world" meant we could not hold civil jobs. That is a hermeneutical leap..and to suggest that people are denying the Gospel if they do not make that leap is a problem. The fact is, the text doesnt say that the civil authorities could not be Christian. Rather, we see the early church did have some prominent people who converted to Christ. So, you are adding a concept to the text to make it say what you want it to say. Furthermore, I find it striking that the civil government would be God's vessel for punishing evil, and yet its evil for Christians to be a part of punishing evil. If it is good to punish evil, then I dont know why it matters if its an unbeliever doing the punishing or a believer. This concept makes no sense to me.

Fourth, John the Baptist called soldiers to repent. When they asked what they should "do", John did not reply, "quit the military." In fact, Jesus praised many Roman soldiers for their faith...and never called them to abandon their role in the military. They were only told to not abuse their power.[SIZE=16pt]John the Baptist was judging by the Old Law, Jesus had not yet come to preach the following scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Matthew 5:38-48) “You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well, if a man takes you to law and would have your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone orders you to go one mile, go two miles with him. Give to anyone who asks, and if anyone wants to borrow, do not turn away. You have learnt how it was said: you must love your neighbour and hate your enemy. But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; in this way you will be sons of your Father in heaven[/SIZE], for he causes his sun to rise on bad men as well as good,”
[SIZE=16pt]A personal note. I served five years in the United States Armed forces. Jesus to make me truly understand what he told us about loving one’s enemies, came into my living room, and to me that we are not to hurt/harm anyone for any reason. I believe scripture, and truly believe Jesus.[/SIZE]






Fifth, even if pacifism was a NT concept, you still havent shown how the church today is advocating war and violence. Most people I know in church are not in the military and are not advocating for us to go to war with anyone. So, I dont see your point. [SIZE=16pt]The Church believes in a just war. There is no such thing for a Christian.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Christians say the trust God, yet if one picks up a gun to defend one’s self then he or she is not trusting God. It is much better to die, then disobey God.[/SIZE]

 

[Xhavon]

Paul told us that if anyone preaches a Word different then the apostles taught they are to be condemned/cursed.

The Church does not preach what the apostles preached.
Matthew 5:38-48) “You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. -------------“

(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.
(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.

(Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will not fail you, in Heaven where no thief can reach it and no moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

Jerusalem Bible
(Galatians 1:7-8) “Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some troublemakers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one you have already heard, he is to be condemned.”

New Jerusalem Bible
(Galatians 1:6-9) “I am astonished that you are so promptly turning away from the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are going over to a different gospel- not that it is another gospel; except that there are trouble-makers among you who are seeking to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we ourselves or an angel from heaven preaches to you a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let God's curse be on him. I repeat again what we declared before: anyone who preaches to you a gospel other than the one you were first given is to be under God's curse.”

When Elijah told the Lord that he was the only one left. The Lord assured Him that He had reserved seven thousand who had not bowed the knee to Baal.

What makes you think that there is No One today that fit the description of "the true church"?

I assure you that the Lord has indeed reserved seven thousand who do not bow the knee to false beliefs.

 

[Johnlove]

When Elijah told the Lord that he was the only one left. The Lord assured Him that He had reserved seven thousand who had not bowed the knee to Baal.

What makes you think that there is No One today that fit the description of "the true church"?

I assure you that the Lord has indeed reserved seven thousand who do not bow the knee to false beliefs.

[SIZE=16pt]I believe the one true church today are those who hear the Word of God, and live that Word.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]I also believe that there are many people that God has called that are living his Word. But I also believe that as of now those people have not been brought together.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”[/SIZE]

 

[hopeingod]

Please, give me a break. There's sin in us all, everyone of us who believed in the Lord Jesus. To condemn us is pure insanity. Condemnation is one of two judgments, the second being discernment. When someone is condemned, they lack the ability due to distraction, normally emotional, from seeing the way out, the escape, repentance. Condemnation is not godly sorrow, but worldly sorrow, which usually takes the form in one who is sorry he/she got caught.

All the commandments and principles to live by were given for our instruction, while at the same time we've been told that it is God who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. We need His help, and sometimes rather than seek it, we tend to justify our misdeeds.

Love covers a MULTITUDE of sins.....and these three abide, faith, hope and charity, and the greatest of these is charity. And, even when we believe not, He remains faithful, He cannot deny Himself....yet His lovingkindness will He not utterly take from us, nor suffer His faithfulness to fail....we're graven on the palms of His hands....He swore to Himself to keep us, for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus.

May the Spirit of God provide a revelation of the love of God and His commitment to his sons and daughters to john"love," in Jesus name, amen.