The Christian Theocracy

[Behold]

I don't know why you're so critical-minded? This is a virtual truism. Forgiveness comes when we repent.

Real repentance is not sinning daily than telling God for the 14,000th time....and confessing..""OPPPPSSS, i did it again".
So, just get rid of that cult mentality that is found in most denominations because they don't understand God's Salvation.

Real Repentance is when you turn from Unbelief to Belief, and in that Instant though Trusting Christ, God gives the BELIEVER, the new birth, forgiveness of all their sin, and eternal life, "in Christ".

This is to become : "SAVED", and Only Jesus SAVES as He is all God offered to save you.

John 14:6

The born again, are literally BORN Spiritually Righteous, having become "the righteousness of God, in Christ".

 

[Randy Kluth]

Real repentance is not sinning daily than telling God for the 14,000th time....and confessing..""OPPPPSSS, i did it again".

Well now, you're showing how unbiblical you really are? Jesus said to forgive 70x7, right? That assumes a person can repent all day long--legitimately, and still be forgiven. It does not assume the person is trying to work his way into heaven, as you maliciously accuse me of saying.

Your salvation lacks righteousness and love. If you lose your love, God will take away your lamp.

 

[Behold]

Well now, you're showing how unbiblical you really are? Jesus said to forgive 70x7,.

You are certainly not a bible scholar.... according to your posts, and i notice that you are unable to teach anything that related to the Cross of Christ.
So Lets examine if you can understand this ..

Jesus on the Cross, is the eternal sacrifice for the sin of the world. John 3:16

2 Corinthians 5:19

That would include your sin.
So, if you understand this BLOOD ATONEMENT, that is the Gift of Salvation...then say so.

If you can't then go ahead and write more posts detailing all you are doing by self effort to try to get God to accept you and keep you, Randy.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That's true, but history shows that nations change. They come and go. They rise and fall. When Israel began, they all declared with one voice that the Lord is their God. Later, many of them adopted different gods.

God tries to start nations out with a system that will be the greatest blessing to them. But He knows that over time people will drop off and start wanting their own way.

But once again it is ot our job to make theocracies on earth. If a nation experiences the salvation of so many of its citizens that they wish to adapt NT epistles as a "constitution" that is simply a + by product of making disciples of all Peoples (which is what nations means many times)

That is why we see in the Epistles it is always individually focused, for God is interested in bringing in the harvest of the kingdom, and not building empires on earth.

I didn't make it up. God said it. He promised Abraham *nations.* And he gave the 1st nation of God, Israel, a theocracy. We often assume that because salvation is individual that societies can't be "saved." Well, that's partly true. But God is very interested in improving not just individuals but also the societies we live in.

Nations biblically are Heb. "goy" and Greek Ethnos when they appear as this it is always referring to people not geography. The concept of nation/state is a fairly new construct while nation as an ethnic group is found throughout scripture. Now it is also true that the ethnic groups (like greeks, Samaritans Phillipians etc.) are all found for the most part in a specific geographic location, but the forcus is always the people and not a government for a land.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are certainly not a bible scholar.... according to your posts, and i notice that you are unable to teach anything that related to the Cross of Christ.
So Lets examine if you can understand this ..

Jesus on the Cross, is the eternal sacrifice for the sin of the world. John 3:16

2 Corinthians 5:19

That would include your sin.
So, if you understand this BLOOD ATONEMENT, that is the Gift of Salvation...then say so.

If you can't then go ahead and write more posts detailing all you are doing by self effort to try to get God to accept you and keep you, Randy.

I'm not interested in discussing anything with you.

 

[Randy Kluth]

But once again it is ot our job to make theocracies on earth. If a nation experiences the salvation of so many of its citizens that they wish to adapt NT epistles as a "constitution" that is simply a + by product of making disciples of all Peoples (which is what nations means many times)

That is why we see in the Epistles it is always individually focused, for God is interested in bringing in the harvest of the kingdom, and not building empires on earth.

When the vast majority of a nation becomes Christian, yes they *do* make a theocracy. They do that by embracing a Christian Constitution.

Until such time as a majority develops we witness to the individual and the society that *God* wishes to have. His example, from the OT, is Israel. Despite their flaws, their *system* was what *God* proposed--not Man.

A large number of Christians today think that because Christian nations have fallen that God has changed his blueprint for what He ideally wants nations to be. He has *not* changed! But we do have to deal with the plate that we've been dished. If the large majority of our former Christian nation is now secularistic and religiously pluralistic, then yes, we must evangelize person to person and not try to impose, undemocratically, a theocracy.

Nations biblically are Heb. "goy" and Greek Ethnos when they appear as this it is always referring to people not geography. The concept of nation/state is a fairly new construct while nation as an ethnic group is found throughout scripture. Now it is also true that the ethnic groups (like greeks, Samaritans Phillipians etc.) are all found for the most part in a specific geographic location, but the forcus is always the people and not a government for a land.

I don't think you can separate words from their context. Nearly always a "nation" is connected to the geography it encompasses. It goes without saying. We don't need to do a word study to understand this. The word "individual" need not mean "human." But in context, it always refers to a human. In the same way, "nation" always refers to the geography it encompasses, along with its people and government, when the context indicates this--in other words, it is not being used in some abnormal sense.

 

[Keraz]

I'm sure you're not concerned with whether the Jews "agree with me?" But I'm not thinking like you, but more like thinking like the commentators at Hub. Ezekiel represented the idolatry in Israel and Judah that God had been suffering, which would lead up to their punishment. It is symbolic of Christ bearing the sins of Israel and of the whole world.

You ignore the specific time periods given thru Ezekiel 4:4-6, 390 years for Israel and 40 years for Judah.
That is more proof of the continued separation between the ten Northern tribes of Israel and the 2 Southern tribes of Judah.

Like you, the Commentaters can't figure out how those 2 times fit into the scheme of things. I have given the explanation and a logical answer to that riddle, by using Leviticus 26:18 for Israel and Leviticus 26:21 & 27 for Judah.
I can see why you and all with the belief of a Jewish redemption, push aside this simple explanation, as it wrecks the incredible idea that the Jews are still Gods people.
That they are NOT still Gods people, is proved by how Jesus called them spawn of the Devil and how they cursed themselves.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You ignore the specific time periods given thru Ezekiel 4:4-6, 390 years for Israel and 40 years for Judah.
That is more proof of the continued separation between the ten Northern tribes of Israel and the 2 Southern tribes of Judah.

Like you, the Commentaters can't figure out how those 2 times fit into the scheme of things. I have given the explanation and a logical answer to that riddle, by using Leviticus 26:18 for Israel and Leviticus 26:21 & 27 for Judah.
I can see why you and all with the belief of a Jewish redemption, push aside this simple explanation, as it wrecks the incredible idea that the Jews are still Gods people.
That they are NOT still Gods people, is proved by how Jesus called them spawn of the Devil and how they cursed themselves.

Jesus called *some of them* spawn of the Devil. He obviously did not call all of the Jews such because he chose some of them for his apostles.

I view Eze 4.4 the way the Commentators do that I mentioned--the ones at Hub. Ezekiel endured for 390 + 40 days, representing 390 + 40 years of Israel's idolatry. Ezekiel bore the sins of Israel, representing what Christ would do in bearing the sins of the world at the cross.

 

[Keraz]

Jesus called *some of them* spawn of the Devil. He obviously did not call all of the Jews such because he chose some of them for his apostles.

We are talking about the Jews of today.
Apart from a tiny minority, they still reject Jesus. Bible prophecy tells us that they will be punished and only a 'holy seed' will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13

I view Eze 4.4 the way the Commentators do that I mentioned--the ones at Hub. Ezekiel endured for 390 + 40 days, representing 390 + 40 years of Israel's idolatry. Ezekiel bore the sins of Israel, representing what Christ would do in bearing the sins of the world at the cross.

Do the math.
The Exodus was circa 1495 BC and the separation of Israel and Judah in Rehoboam's time was about 520 years later. Then Israel was exiled in 718 BC and Judah in 586 BC. About 780 years and 910 years since the Exodus, respectively.
You, and the uncomprehending Commentators are way off in thinking that Ezekiel's times referred to their idolatry.

It simply is not what Ezekiel said anyway, he said the time was decreed for their punishment.
Reliance on anyone before now for the truth of Prophecy, is a bad mistake, as Daniel 12:4 7 9, informs us that only near the time of the end, will anyone understand the Prophesies.

 

[Randy Kluth]

We are talking about the Jews of today.
Apart from a tiny minority, they still reject Jesus. Bible prophecy tells us that they will be punished and only a 'holy seed' will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13

Jesus was talking about the Jews of *his day.* Why would he be talking about future generations of Jews when he knew that they would suffer the loss of status until the end of the age? Paul argued that there would always be a faithful remnant among them who would become Christians.

You can apply your hostile attitude towards all of the Muslim countries, all of the Communist countries, all of the completely pagan countries. And yet, these same countries sometimes see revival break out. Rome itself was pagan and completely hostile to Christianity in the beginning, but later converted to become a Christian Empire!

You spend your time attacking people almost as if to discourage them from converting. Why waste your time with such hate-talk?

Do the math.
The Exodus was circa 1495 BC and the separation of Israel and Judah in Rehoboam's time was about 520 years later. Then Israel was exiled in 718 BC and Judah in 586 BC. About 780 years and 910 years since the Exodus, respectively.
You, and the uncomprehending Commentators are way off in thinking that Ezekiel's times referred to their idolatry.

I see. All of the renowned, educated commentators are stupid, and you are smarter than they are---you see the obvious, whereas they are jaded and blind? Don't you realize that numbers can be juggled?
Add 40 + 390 + 586 BC = 1016 BC. What happened in 1016 BC? King Saul, the 1st king of Israel, and one disobedient to God, reigned. That is when God began to endure the people of Israel choosing a king for themselves instead of prophets of God. And they got a king who did not listen to God either, setting the stage for David's son Solomon, who tolerated a multitude of gods in Israel, and his son Rehoboam who caused the 10 northern tribes to defect to an idolatrous regime.

 

[Brakelite]

A Christian theocracy before the second coming is the most terrifying concept in politics. Whoever is king, (throughout the history of Britain there were successions of either Catholic and Protestant kings/queens, and not one of them failed to stamp his/her presumed authority upon the rest of the nation, demanding their interpretation of Christianity must be adhered to on pain of death), and this persecuting mindset was carried over even into the new world where supposedly freedom loving pioneers sought to establish a nation without a king and a religion without a Pope. They then persecuted those they disagreed with.
But, any astute Bible student will recognize that attempts to create and establish a Christian theocracy will soon take place, and those same students of prophecy will also be students of current events and recognize that such is taking place as we speak. In America, it will be an apostate
Protestant government, working in harmony with a global Catholic led government.
Such political endeavors will be the next subject I focus on in the thread "Every one is in on the Action". These are the real prophetic indicators of the last days. A political so called Christian theocracy... Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots... Counterfeit Christianity in global control, while the true church "who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus" become the target of bitter hatred, war, and persecution because their worship is unacceptable to the majority.
So @Randy Kluth , interesting and timely topic.

 

[Truth7t7]

Israel became a theocracy and a model for future Christian nations to base their societies on God's laws, as well.

Some people argue that the NT does not describe a Christian Theocracy, and instead focuses only on individual salvation. But that isn't quite true. We do come to Christ as individuals, but we are called into society, the Church.

And Abraham's nation, Israel, did become a model for the nations that God also promised to Abraham. Paul argued that this was fulfilled in the Church.

However, in the time of the writing of the NT, the Church had only begun as a minority within Israel, and had only started an outreach to the nations. Christianity was just a minority religion until Rome adopted Christianity under Theodosius.

So Christian nations did eventually evolve after the pattern of Israel's theocracy, and we have called them "Christian nations" typically. Today, the term "theocracy" is avoided out of concern to disassociate with the Islamic theocracy and other religious theocracies. But Christian nations, no matter the form of government, is a theocracy when the country is a self-proclaimed Christian country, or Christian state.

The failure of Israel as a theocracy did not mean the failure of their model for all nations. On the contrary, they showed that a theocracy only works when its principles are being responsibly followed.

The theocracy of Israel succeeded even before Christ because it was not based on perfection, but on the idea of redemption. Now that redemption is complete in Christ, it is affirmed that theocracy is God's model for the nations.

We are to responsibly follow Christian principles as a Christian society, without necessitating perfection. Christ has forgiven our sins, and this forgiveness applies when we regularly practice repentance.

Those who want to return to pagan forms of government are Antichristian, and Christians should not give up their belief in the Christian government, even if they are outnumbered. It is our testimony that is critical, and not the success of our society.

Jesus Christ and the Church is the model for a theocracy upon earth, there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ

 

[Randy Kluth]

A Christian theocracy before the second coming is the most terrifying concept in politics.

More terrifying than Nero? More terrifying than Genghis Kahn or Tamerlane? More terrifying than Hordes of Huns or Goths? More terrifying than Napoleon or Hitler or Stalin? More terrifying than the Antichrist? Give me a break!

Whoever is king, (throughout the history of Britain there were successions of either Catholic and Protestant kings/queens, and not one of them failed to stamp his/her presumed authority upon the rest of the nation, demanding their interpretation of Christianity must be adhered to on pain of death), and this persecuting mindset was carried over even into the new world where supposedly freedom loving pioneers sought to establish a nation without a king and a religion without a Pope. They then persecuted those they disagreed with.

I think what you're afraid of is the failure of theocracies?

But, any astute Bible student will recognize that attempts to create and establish a Christian theocracy will soon take place, and those same students of prophecy will also be students of current events and recognize that such is taking place as we speak. In America, it will be an apostate
Protestant government, working in harmony with a global Catholic led government.

Any astute Bible student? Give me a break! There's nothing in the Bible about America, about Protestants and Catholics.

Such political endeavors will be the next subject I focus on in the thread "Every one is in on the Action". These are the real prophetic indicators of the last days. A political so called Christian theocracy... Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots... Counterfeit Christianity in global control, while the true church "who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus" become the target of bitter hatred, war, and persecution because their worship is unacceptable to the majority.
So @Randy Kluth , interesting and timely topic.

You're a very poor Bible student. The Great Whore is not authentic Christian theocracies, but perversions of the same. Don't confuse Christ with Antichrist. Would you call Israel's theocracy a Whore or an Antichrist? If you do so, you're certainly *not* a good Bible student!

 

[Truth7t7]

Would you call Israel's theocracy a Whore or an Antichrist? If you do so, you're certainly *not* a good Bible student!

Israel as a Nation deny's Jesus is/was the prophesied Messiah, through the spirit of Antichrist, it's that simple

Try reading the Rabbinical Jewish Talmud a leading holy book of Judaism, full of Anti Jesus quotes, and held in high esteem by Judaism

 

[Brakelite]

Any astute Bible student? Give me a break! There's nothing in the Bible about America, about Protestants and Catholics.

Actually there is, and the direction that modern politics is taking us is real time confirmation of it.

The Great Whore is not authentic Christian theocracies, but perversions of the same.

As I said. A counterfeit, a counterfeit forming as we speak with your approbation and support. A Catholic led and inspired ecumenism to deliver to the papal seat the long held ambition of global governance... Your so called theocracy.
And yes, worse than Tamerlane, worse than Nero. They were just limited local persecutors...
KJV Revelation 13:14-17
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Just as a matter of interest, while Genghis Khan may have been a little grumpy with those who disagreed with him politically, he was very tolerant with those who chose to worship the true God. His children and grandchildren rules over Christian kingdoms... But were not theocracies, even though the majority of people were Christian.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Actually there is, and the direction that modern politics is taking us is real time confirmation of it.

Where are your Bible quotes on America, Protestants, and Catholics? Ridiculous! You're reading tea leaves! So much for your judgment as to what constitutes good Bible Study!

As I said. A counterfeit, a counterfeit forming as we speak with your approbation and support.

That's a lie. I support no counterfeit. Where's your quote on this? Ah, you wish to take my comments out of context? So much for your serious Bible Study and responsible representation of the facts.

I'm completely disinterested in this level of discourse. Take it somewhere else.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Israel as a Nation deny's Jesus is/was the prophesied Messiah, through the spirit of Antichrist, it's that simple

Try reading the Rabbinical Jewish Talmud a leading holy book of Judaism, full of Anti Jesus quotes, and held in high esteem by Judaism

Who has trouble understanding that the Jewish People have rejected Jesus as the Messiah? I have no idea why you wish to bring such a ridiculous argument?

 

[Randy Kluth]

So far, the most virulent opposition to my concept, rather the Bible's concept, of a theocracy comes from those who absurdly argue that their *failures* in history render them invalid. That would be the equivalent of saying God now rejects marriage as an institution because divorces happen. I'm not interested in the least in this kind of argument--it is of the poorest quality and lacks any real logic.

 

[Keraz]

You spend your time attacking people almost as if to discourage them from converting. Why waste your time with such hate-talk?

I spend my time promoting the Prophetic Word. That most people reject what the Prophets told us will happen, is not my concern.
Calling prophesies that tell of judgment and destruction 'hate talk', shows a severe inability to understand what God has planned for our future.

All of the renowned, educated commentators are stupid

Daniel 12:4 & 9, plus other scriptures, all state how people will be unable to understand the end time prophesies until just before they come to pass. And only a few, even then.
Reliance on any expositor of Prophecy before now, will only lead to errors. Proved by the many and varied theories, ideas and plain guesswork of them all. Absolutely proved by Matthew 11:25-26

 

[Brakelite]

So far, the most virulent opposition to my concept, rather the Bible's concept, of a theocracy comes from those who absurdly argue that their *failures* in history renders them invalid. That would be the equivalent of saying God now rejects marriage as an institution because divorces happen. I'm not interested in the least in this kind of argument--it is of the poorest quality and lacks any real logic.

Not at all. If God intended a future theocracy that would be successful, He would have spoken of it in prophecy. He didn't. Prophecy only references a counterfeit, which in a worldly sense will be seen as a success, but will finally be destroyed. It is this counterfeit now being established around the world as we speak.
The scriptures speak of two cities, Babel become Babylon, Salem becoming Jerusalem. One having it's roots in Cain and his unfaithful descendants, the other in Abel and the faithful seed of the woman. Basically the battle has been between two brothers. It will be the same in the very last days. Two powers claiming to have the truth... Two ways of salvation... Two gospels... Two claims to scripture as a foundation... Two claims to knowing Jesus... But one persecuting the other for the sake of power and control, the other, a small minority, wanting only peace, humble, having little, but worshiping according to his conscience. No where in my posts previous did I place protestants and Catholics as opposite as far as theocracy in concerned. They both had their attempts and both failed. Scripture speaks of Babylon and get daughters... An adulterous, unfaithful, apostate mother who spawned equally adulterous unfaithful children. Note that all were women... Women in prophecy are symbolic of churches. Surely you can make the connections... It's as clear as midday.