What do you think was God`s Purpose in making - the Nations, Israel and the Body of Christ?

[Hiddenthings]

YOU... answer the questions many here have asked you, and you keep evading.

Your questions don't make sense, just like your faulty interpretations of The Bible. To you this is all just a game.

Come on, Davy!

Don’t hold back now, tell us, what exactly do the literal oceans have to do with the New Jerusalem?

You’ve shown all that gusto, now let’s hear the explanation!

 

[Hiddenthings]

And that's MORE LIES you have to make up in a vain attempt to justify the devil's work you are doing here.

You’ve got nothing, Davy and what little you do have amounts to “I believe the oceans will vanish in the Kingdom age!” No real reason why, it just sounds right?

Okay Davy - good one!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Well, that was entertaining - I guess he holds this belief rather passionately but is unable to explain why.

The key is found in Isaiah 57:20 “But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.”

Follow the symbol throughout Scripture and it becomes clear: when Christ hands the Kingdom over to His Father, it will be at a time when the troubled nations no longer exist. That’s exactly what Revelation 21 goes on to describe, a time when those who remain enter the Kingdom, and sin and death are completely removed from the earth.

It has nothing at all to do with the literal seas (crazy!). In fact, God's Glory will ultimately be fulfilled as it states:

Numbers 14:21 “But truly, as I live, and as all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord,” &
Habakkuk 2:14 “For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

Once the nations are gone these promises are fulfilled and God's purpose achieved in the Earth!

 

[Hiddenthings]

imo it can’t be literal in respect of those which are of the night, of darkness and do sleep in the night. I’m persuaded it’s not literal because He speaks of a very different “day” and “night” then the one we see every day when the the sun comes up and goes down, and it is night. “And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon to shine in it” it says for God is their light.as there is also “no more sea” Just as the verses say Ephesians 5:8-11 For you were sometimes darkness, but now are you light in the Lord: walk as children of light: [9] (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) [10] Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. [11] And have no fellowship with the unfruitful(empty, vain, unprofitable to give Life, or Light) works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

It's not literal but totally symbolic as is all the prophetic sections of the apocalypse.

Do you today is the first time I ever heard anyone believe that the Oceans of the earth will be removed because New Jerusalem is being set up earth.

John 11:9-10 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbles not, because he sees the light of this world. [10] But if a man walk in the night, he stumbles, because there is no light in him.

Do I take that to mean I can go outside tonight when it is dark (literally) and God will give me supernatural night-vision to not stumble nor fall in the night?

Hosea 14:9 Whoever is wise, let him understand these things; whoever is discerning, let him know them; for the ways of the LORD are right, and the upright walk in them, but transgressors stumble in them.

1 Thessalonians 5:4-7 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [5] You are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. [6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. [7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

If our only focus is on the night and day every man and woman literally sees and experiences with their natural eyes…what is He speaking of concerning this stumbling in the night, not knowing what you stumble over, for what is missing to Light the way? Where Christ says
Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he says, Awake you that sleep, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light.

Same as significant to me is they that be drunk are drunk in the night. What is drunk? Why do some go away from the table of the Lord drunk, not discerning the Lord’s body, they drink damnation down unto themselves going away drunken? Habakkuk 2:15-16 Woe unto him that gives his neighbour drink, that puts your bottle to him, and makes him drunken also, that you may look on their nakedness! [16] you are filled with (all unrighteousness) shame for glory: drink you also, and let your foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the LORD'S right hand shall be turned unto you, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory. <making your neighbor drunk so you can look on his “nakedness” is not desiring to see his naked body (genital parts) but wanting your neighbor destroyed so you can glory in his stumbling around drunk when you ought to love your neighbor and edify your neighbor, so he be strengthened. It’s instead glorying in your neighbors stumbling in the night, made drunk and blind not able to see where he goes. The severity of God? If we do this to our neighbor then …we drink also of what we put to our neighbors mouth. we stumble too, made drunk in the night. Talking like we know something about a thief who comes to kill, steal and destroy. unable to see making our neighbor drunk to glory in his shame ‘nakedness’ makes us the thief which comes to steal, kill and destroy. The thief we warn against. Pride and gloating in others drunkenness and nakedness, mocking those who are weak and without knowledge makes us what we warn others against. The thief comes to only steal, kill, and destroy. But you are of the day, that the night should not overtake you as a thief caught in the night.

If believers are unable to identify with the symbols how are they to interpret all the Revelation?

Take verse 23 "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon to shine in it" As symbols, the sun and moon relate to
political and religious powers (see Rev. 16:8). There is no need for delegated political or religious power in the age to come, for Zion's light in those particulars will shine forth with divine power (Isa. 24:23; 30:26; 60:19-20).

Understanding the symbol is far more important than believing the Sun or Moon will not shine over New Jerusalem!

It's merely saying this New City will contain the Light and Brilliance of God and revealed through Christ and the Saints. It's not teaching a change to the cosmos!

 

[Davy]

Brethren in Christ, I find among many brethren one of the most difficult things written in God's Word they seem to lack instruction on is how God's Word, and all languages for that matter, use symbols, metaphors, allegory, idioms, expressions, parable, etc., to give a deeper understanding of a literal thing or literal event.

Instead, what I see with Bible interpretation by some, is they create yet another metaphor from a symbol or allegory, when the metaphor was designed to make the subject easier to understand.

Here's an example, and it is a hard one for many to understand, yet it was Lord Jesus' explanation:

In Matthew 13, Jesus gave His parable of the tares of the field to the multitudes. Then later, when He and His disciples went into the house in private, they asked Him to 'explain' the parable to them. Jesus then gave the explanation, not another parable, but an explanation...

In His explanation, Jesus said the good seed represented the children of the kingdom, and they were sown by the Son of Man.

But He said the tares were the children of the wicked one, and the enemy that sowed them was the devil.

That's kind of difficult to believe, isn't it, that Jesus and the devil sowed children for this present world? Is that just another metaphor? It's actually a spiritual metaphor, pointing to a literal event that happened. Do you recall in Ephesians by Apostle Paul that Christ's chosen elect were chosen before the foundation of this world? That's what Jesus' idea of sowing children is about, the predestination of His elect vs. the predestination of the devil's elect, before the foundation of this world. Genesis 3:15 even hinted at it early in God's Word with the concept of the devil's seed vs. the Seed of the Woman (symbolic for Christ's family lineage).

Likewise with Lord Jesus' parable that you don't put new wine in old bottles lest the bottles break, but put new wine in new bottles so both are preserved. In reality, Jesus was pointing to wine skins, which is what they used at the time. And He was using the idea of wine and the wine skins as symbols; wine for His Truth and wine skins for those hearing His Word.

The idea of new wine is about freshly made fermenting wine. While it is fermenting it must have room to expand and contract. If you put it in an old dried out wine skin, the skin will burst, because the dried out skin cannot expand to keep it. Likewise, if one tries to teach the New Wine of God's Word, meaning full strength, folks who are set in their ways with heeding men's traditions will be like the dried up wine skins. Their understanding just cannot handle it. By this Lord Jesus was suggesting to find new wine skins, i.e., people that had not been subjected for years to the traditions of men, and they would receive Him and His Truth full strength.

Therefore, metaphors, allegory, analogy, parable, etc., in God's Word is not to make understanding more difficult, but to make understanding His Word easier to understand. Remember the old saying, "A picture is worth a thousand words." That is what symbols and metaphors do.

 

[Davy]

Then again brethren in Christ, there is MUCH LITERAL instruction written in God's Word. When symbols and allegories are given, it is always used to point to something that is LITERAL, REAL, ACTUAL.

So beware of those who try and treat literal objects or events written in God's Word as just a symbol or metaphor, and leave you with that symbolism idea that it could point to... just anything. You should realize those are the workers of darkness at work out to dupe you, hoping you are gullible enough to listen to them.

How do we know the difference in God's Word when something is given as a metaphor or symbol, or parable, etc.?

It is mostly by common sense, as the symbol may point to something fantastic that does not exist in God's creation, as God does not do monsters. And often, God's Word will even declare when a parable is being given, so you know it is a parable or proverb. At other times, like with the "king of Tyre" in Ezekiel 28, God will give descriptors that can only point to a certain individual, like to Satan there, since God says that one was a cherub that covereth, meaning a heavenly being created to guard the Mercy Seat of God's Throne.

The locust army of Revelation 9 is one such example. Locusts with the teeth of lions, and hair like women, riding horses like to battle, with breastplates of iron? You know those are just symbols for something else, and that is not a real creature or monster. Or at least you should realize that. But it still is pointing directly to something that is... literal and real.

teeth like lions - represents how the locusts attack like wild lions, tearing with its teeth.

hair like women - represents the beauty and softness of a full set of woman's hair, symbolizing how sweet gainsayers the locusts will be in deceiving.

riding horse like to battle - they attack like a literal army; does not mean they are a literal military army, but only how they symbolically attack their prey.

breastplates of iron - cavalry armor, or... the Hebrew breastplate of priests has 12 jewels. It is majestic, so if representing that, it means the locusts will represent themselves as priests, yet their breastplate will be fake, made of iron instead.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Brethren in Christ, I find among many brethren one of the most difficult things written in God's Word they seem to lack instruction on is how God's Word, and all languages for that matter, use symbols, metaphors, allegory, idioms, expressions, parable, etc., to give a deeper understanding of a literal thing or literal event.

I guess you are going to teach us about the things you choose as symbolic and those things you wish to interpret as literal.

Instead, what I see with Bible interpretation by some, is they create yet another metaphor from a symbol or allegory, when the metaphor was designed to make the subject easier to understand.

So "Sea" already holds Biblical symbology so I'm curious where you are taken us?

Here's an example, and it is a hard one for many to understand, yet it was Lord Jesus' explanation:

In Matthew 13, Jesus gave His parable of the tares of the field to the multitudes. Then later, when He and His disciples went into the house in private, they asked Him to 'explain' the parable to them. Jesus then gave the explanation, not another parable, but an explanation...

In His explanation, Jesus said the good seed represented the children of the kingdom, and they were sown by the Son of Man.

But He said the tares were the children of the wicked one, and the enemy that sowed them was the devil.

That's kind of difficult to believe, isn't it, that Jesus and the devil sowed children for this present world? Is that just another metaphor? It's actually a spiritual metaphor, pointing to a literal event that happened. Do you recall in Ephesians by Apostle Paul that Christ's chosen elect were chosen before the foundation of this world? That's what Jesus' idea of sowing children is about, the predestination of His elect vs. the predestination of the devil's elect, before the foundation of this world. Genesis 3:15 even hinted at it early in God's Word with the concept of the devil's seed vs. the Seed of the Woman (symbolic for Christ's family lineage).

You mean serpent, right? The Seed of the Serpent is in Genesis 3:15 - the animal which God made!

Likewise with Lord Jesus' parable that you don't put new wine in old bottles lest the bottles break, but put new wine in new bottles so both are preserved. In reality, Jesus was pointing to wine skins, which is what they used at the time. And He was using the idea of wine and the wine skins as symbols; wine for His Truth and wine skins for those hearing His Word.

You're not making sense Davy!

The idea of new wine is about freshly made fermenting wine. While it is fermenting it must have room to expand and contract. If you put it in an old dried out wine skin, the skin will burst, because the dried out skin cannot expand to keep it. Likewise, if one tries to teach the New Wine of God's Word, meaning full strength, folks who are set in their ways with heeding men's traditions will be like the dried up wine skins. Their understanding just cannot handle it. By this Lord Jesus was suggesting to find new wine skins, i.e., people that had not been subjected for years to the traditions of men, and they would receive Him and His Truth full strength.

Therefore, metaphors, allegory, analogy, parable, etc., in God's Word is not to make understanding more difficult, but to make understanding His Word easier to understand. Remember the old saying, "A picture is worth a thousand words." That is what symbols and metaphors do.

Why don't you go back through this thread and first read it. Consider all the questions Big Boy couldn't answer and David Lamb is still considering, and then come back with something relevant to the OP.

What do you think the devil is in Matthew 13:39?

"and the enemy who sows them is the devil (false accuser)" Mt 13:39.

The Lord Jesus tells you Davy, but I don't believe you want to read this!

and they (angels) will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers. Mt 13:41

It's people Davy!

Who are the false accusers Davy?

“The enemy” in Greek means “hateful.” The oversowing occurred while “men slept” (verse 25), referring to the “servants” mentioned in verse 27, who were responsible for keeping watch (Hebrews 13:17).

The one “that sowed them” reflects the principle found in Proverbs 11:18: “He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity.” “The Devil” here represents the base instincts of human nature, as explained in Hebrews 2:14 and Galatians 5:24.

Hebrews 2:14
“Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil (sin),”

Galatians 5:24
“And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.”

You have no evil supernatural being and it pains you because you can't prove your creature exists no matter how hard you try!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Then again brethren in Christ, there is MUCH LITERAL instruction written in God's Word. When symbols and allegories are given, it is always used to point to something that is LITERAL, REAL, ACTUAL.

So beware of those who try and treat literal objects or events written in God's Word as just a symbol or metaphor, and leave you with that symbolism idea that it could point to... just anything. You should realize those are the workers of darkness at work out to dupe you, hoping you are gullible enough to listen to them.

How do we know the difference in God's Word when something is given as a metaphor or symbol, or parable, etc.? It is mostly by common sense, as the symbol may point to something fantastic that does not exist in God's creation, as God does not do monsters. The locust army of Revelation 9 is one such example. Locusts with the teeth of lions, and hair like women, riding horses like to battle, with breastplates of iron? You know those are just symbols for something else, and that is not a real creature or monster. Or at least you should realize that. But it still is pointing directly to something that is... literal and real.

teeth like lions - represents how the locusts attack like wild lions, tearing with its teeth.

hair like women - represents the beauty and softness of a full set of woman's hair, symbolizing how sweet gainsayers the locusts will be in deceiving.

riding horse like to battle - they attack like a literal army; does not mean they are a literal military army, but only how they symbolically attack their prey.

breastplates of iron - cavalry armor, or... the Hebrew breastplate of priests has 12 jewels. It is majestic, so if representing that, it means the locusts will represent themselves as priests, yet their breastplate will be fake, made of iron instead.

You’re avoiding the symbolism in Revelation 21, and the more you try to defend your view, the more difficult it becomes.

What is wrong with the literal oceans of the earth that they would need to disappear when New Jerusalem is established?

Can you provide even one verse that supports the idea that the actual oceans will be removed and why?

Not only do you reject the symbolism, but you also fail to offer any scriptural basis for your own interpretation.

This is really poor Davy and I think you know it.

 

[Hiddenthings]

What’s ironic about Davy’s use of Matthew 13 is that he believes the devil in the parable is a fallen angel causing all the harm, yet the passage clearly states that the reapers are the angels.

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom Mt 13:41.

“The reapers are the angels” they are servants sent to minister to those who will inherit salvation (Hebrews 1:14; see also Genesis 48:16).
They will be present at the time of judgment (Luke 12:8–9).

So what is Davy unintentionally doing?

He’s shifting responsibility away from mankind and onto an imaginary being, while also overlooking the faithful role of the angels in carrying out God's will and guiding the saints into the Kingdom.

They (angels) will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Mt 13:42.

Not literally! The metaphor of the furnace is powerful, it illustrates how human nature can be consumed. It represents complete rejection from life, leaving only the prospect of eternal death to face.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I guess you are going to teach us about the things you choose as symbolic and those things you wish to interpret as literal.

So "Sea" already holds Biblical symbology so I'm curious where you are taken us?

You mean serpent, right? The Seed of the Serpent is in Genesis 3:15 - the animal which God made!

You're not making sense Davy!

Why don't you go back through this thread and first read it. Consider all the questions Big Boy couldn't answer and David Lamb is still considering, and then come back with something relevant to the OP.

What do you think the devil is in Matthew 13:39?

"and the enemy who sows them is the devil (false accuser)" Mt 13:39.

The Lord Jesus tells you Davy, but I don't believe you want to read this!

and they (angels) will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers. Mt 13:41

It's people Davy!

Who are the false accusers Davy?

“The enemy” in Greek means “hateful.” The oversowing occurred while “men slept” (verse 25), referring to the “servants” mentioned in verse 27, who were responsible for keeping watch (Hebrews 13:17).

The one “that sowed them” reflects the principle found in Proverbs 11:18: “He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity.” “The Devil” here represents the base instincts of human nature, as explained in Hebrews 2:14 and Galatians 5:24.

Hebrews 2:14
“Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil (sin),”

Galatians 5:24
“And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.”

You have no evil supernatural being and it pains you because you can't prove your creature exists no matter how hard you try!

So, you believe that Jesus was tempted by His own fleshly desires in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights rather than being tempted by a an evil, supernatural spirit being called the devil and Satan? That is not possible because Jesus did not have natural fleshly sinful desires like we do. The devil (Satan) is a real supernatural spirit being and he sure has you fooled. He is so deceptive that he has deceived you into thinking he doesn't exist. It's not surprising that someone who denies that Jesus is God would believe something like this.