The Church At Rome

[Selene]

For the moment lets just presume the extra biblical testimony is true. Just what does that mean or prove? Does it prove that the passing of a good preacher and his teachings are some how transferable to his replacement? If you believe so please explain. Some verses would nice as well, rather than extra biblical testimony. I also don't need to hear about the seed of Abraham, that was a blood line leading to the seed Jesus. Most understand we are not saved simply because we have Abraham as a father. If that were the case all the decedents of Hagar in "Ishmael" and the Pharisees as well could make the same claim. We see that being a Pharisee following the line from Moses did not insure or guarantee the transfer of Gods message. So, like I said just what does it prove?

Hello Jacob,

It proves that what St. John wrote in his Gospel is true. St. John wrote that there were some things that Jesus did that were not written down. Just because they were not written down does not mean that it is not important. Everything that our Lord did was important.

John 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Having said that, it also shows that we should follow what St. Paul says in the Bible. St. Paul spoke about a different kind of tradition. There are two traditions spoken of in the Bible - man's tradition, and the tradition that St. Paul spoke about in 2 Thessalonians 2:15. This is what Catholics call the "Apostolic traditions" which have been passed down through the Church.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

As you can see from Sacred Scripture, St. Paul not only passed down his epistle (which is the letters he wrote), but also an oral tradtion by word of mouth. He told the Thessalonians to hold fast to these tradtions, not the traditions of men. So, as one can see, there is much more than just the written word in Sacred Scripture. There is also an oral tradition that was passed down through the Church.

Jesus told His Apostles to go out into the world and preached the Gospel. The Apostles were few in number and they could not live forever, so what was passed on to them by Christ was also passed on to others by the Apostles so that the work of Christ would continue to spread even after they die. The Gospel was to be preached to everyone in the world and to all peoples of all generation. The work of Christ does not end with the death of the Apostles. Our Lord's work continues on with their successors. The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the Bible. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, "What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.

2 Timothy 2:2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.

It does not matter to me whether you disagree with our Catholic faith, but at least you now understand why we believe the way we do. :)

In Christ,
Selene

 

[Anastacia]

Hello Jacob,

It proves that what St. John wrote in his Gospel is true. St. John wrote that there were some things that Jesus did that were not written down. Just because they were not written down does not mean that it is not important. Everything that our Lord did was important.

John 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Having said that, it also shows that we should follow what St. Paul says in the Bible. St. Paul spoke about a different kind of tradition. There are two traditions spoken of in the Bible - man's tradition, and the tradition that St. Paul spoke about in 2 Thessalonians 2:15. This is what Catholics call the "Apostolic traditions" which have been passed down through the Church.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

As you can see from Sacred Scripture, St. Paul not only passed down his epistle (which is the letters he wrote), but also an oral tradtion by word of mouth. He told the Thessalonians to hold fast to these tradtions, not the traditions of men. So, as one can see, there is much more than just the written word in Sacred Scripture. There is also an oral tradition that was passed down through the Church.

Jesus told His Apostles to go out into the world and preached the Gospel. The Apostles were few in number and they could not live forever, so what was passed on to them by Christ was also passed on to others by the Apostles so that the work of Christ would continue to spread even after they die. The Gospel was to be preached to everyone in the world and to all peoples of all generation. The work of Christ does not end with the death of the Apostles. Our Lord's work continues on with their successors. The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the Bible. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, "What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.

2 Timothy 2:2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.

It does not matter to me whether you disagree with our Catholic faith, but at least you now understand why we believe the way we do. :)

In Christ,
Selene

Selene, Nothing you say here proves "Apostolic Succession." You use Timothy to try to prove that Catholic Popes are apostolic succession from Peter.

The foundation has been laid. God testified to what Jesus Christ, the apostles and prophets spoke of, with signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Catholic popes cannot add to God's word, nor take away. What the Catholic popes do add---there are no signs, wonders and various miracles from God testifying that what they add is from God.


Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Hebrews 2:3 .....This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. [sup]4[/sup] God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

 

[Selene]

For the moment lets just presume the extra biblical testimony is true. Just what does that mean or prove? Does it prove that the passing of a good preacher and his teachings are some how transferable to his replacement? If you believe so please explain. Some verses would nice as well, rather than extra biblical testimony. I also don't need to hear about the seed of Abraham, that was a blood line leading to the seed Jesus. Most understand we are not saved simply because we have Abraham as a father. If that were the case all the decedents of Hagar in "Ishmael" and the Pharisees as well could make the same claim. We see that being a Pharisee following the line from Moses did not insure or guarantee the transfer of Gods message. So, like I said just what does it prove?

By the way, Jacob, I am a Catholic walking in the "Way". Our Christian brothers like you also belong to the "Body of Christ" despite that you and I may disagree on certain doctrines. The important thing is to be one with our Lord Jesus Christ. May peace be with you.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[Anastacia]

By the way, Jacob, I am a Catholic walking in the "Way". Our Christian brothers like you also belong to the "Body of Christ" despite that you and I may disagree on certain doctrines. The important thing is to be one with our Lord Jesus Christ. May peace be with you.

In Christ,
Selene

You believe a different Jesus. How can you know the Jesus of the Bible when you read. learn, and believe the Jesus taught by Catholic popes?

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

Revelation 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

 

[jacobtaylor]

By the way, Jacob, I am a Catholic walking in the "Way". Our Christian brothers like you also belong to the "Body of Christ" despite that you and I may disagree on certain doctrines. The important thing is to be one with our Lord Jesus Christ. May peace be with you.

In Christ,
Selene

You didn't answer the question Selene. Here's the question.
And If it not important why go on about it? The way you are supporting or trying to prove this succession of teachers it appears to be of great importance to you.

For the moment lets just presume the extra biblical testimony is true. Just what does that mean or prove? Does it prove that the passing of a good preacher and his teachings are some how transferable to his replacement? If you believe so please explain. Some verses would nice as well, rather than extra biblical testimony. I also don't need to hear about the seed of Abraham, that was a blood line leading to the seed Jesus. Most understand we are not saved simply because we have Abraham as a father. If that were the case all the decedents of Hagar in "Ishmael" and the Pharisees as well could make the same claim. We see that being a Pharisee following the line from Moses did not insure or guarantee the transfer of Gods message. So, like I said just what does it prove?

 

[rockytopva]

By the way, Jacob, I am a Catholic walking in the "Way". Our Christian brothers like you also belong to the "Body of Christ" despite that you and I may disagree on certain doctrines. The important thing is to be one with our Lord Jesus Christ. May peace be with you.

In Christ,
Selene

Selene... I agree with that post. My view of the church's....

Ephesus - Apostolic
Smyrna - Martyrs
Pergomos - Orthodox
Thyatira - Catholic
Sardis - Protestant
Philadelphia - Methodist / Pentecostal
Laodicea - Non denominational / Charismatic

The Catholic church is a totally different school of thought from the rest of them... But Christian all the same. The key is that quote of yours " The important thing is to be one with our Lord Jesus Christ." Jesus is our ticket to heaven!

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. - John 20:31

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. - Acts 16:31

We may all be of different doctrines, but our faith in Jesus as our mediator with the Heavenly Father is what ought to unite us! I personally welcome all Catholics to this board. I was looking into the African Orthodox church who still has maintained their Christian faith without the European influence. I regard these people as brothers even though they are not at all of my persuasion. Here is a beautiful video of the African Orthodox church!

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=NJfbtupcGbs

 

[Anastacia]

Selene... I agree with that post. My view of the church's....

Ephesus - Apostolic
Smyrna - Martyrs
Pergomos - Orthodox
Thyatira - Catholic
Sardis - Protestant
Philadelphia - Methodist / Pentecostal
Laodicea - Non denominational / Charismatic

The Catholic church is a totally different school of thought from the rest of them... But Christian all the same. The key is that quote of yours " The important thing is to be one with our Lord Jesus Christ." Jesus is our ticket to heaven!

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. - John 20:31

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. - Acts 16:31

We may all be of different doctrines, but our faith in Jesus as our mediator with the Heavenly Father is what ought to unite us! I personally welcome all Catholics to this board. I was looking into the African Orthodox church who still has maintained their Christian faith without the European influence. I regard these people as brothers even though they are not at all of my persuasion. Here is a beautiful video of the African Orthodox church!

Revelation 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

 

[rockytopva]

The churches had their issues...

Ephesus - Left their first love - Note- 2 Timothy 1:15
Smyrna - Martyrs - Few issues in the martyred church age.
Pergomos - Orthodox - Nicolaitanes - The have it you way religion.
Thyatira - Catholic - I personally pray to the Father in Jesus name.
Sardis - Protestant - Name says their alive - Spiritually dead.
Philadelphia - Methodist / Pentecostal - Can't keep the revival going.
Laodicea - Non denominational / Charismatic - From spiritually hot to cold.


By reading into this prophecy we should be able to discern where we are and make decisions to correct our paths. I heard a Methodist preacher who was pastor of a Baptist church once joke that the Baptists didn't believe in backsliding but the Methodists practiced it! Anyone in a church ought to be so focused on the paths their people are traveling that whats going on in other denominations simply doesn't matter.

 

[rockytopva]

The Catholic church simply is a reality within Christendom.

1. I am thankful for my KJV bible!
2. I pray not to any save the Father in Jesus name!
3. I do not visit Catholic churches.
4. I think prayers to the 'Holy Mother' or the saints are in great error.
5. The churches I do visit are either Baptist (Sardisean), Pentecostal (Philadelphia), or independent (Laodicean).

With all that said the Catholic church is still a reality within Christendom. I may not have much to do with them, but a reality all the same.

 

[Anastacia]

The churches had their issues...

Ephesus - Left their first love - Note- 2 Timothy 1:15
Smyrna - Martyrs - Few issues in the martyred church age.
Pergomos - Orthodox - Nicolaitanes - The have it you way religion.
Thyatira - Catholic - I personally pray to the Father in Jesus name.
Sardis - Protestant - Name says their alive - Spiritually dead.
Philadelphia - Methodist / Pentecostal - Can't keep the revival going.
Laodicea - Non denominational / Charismatic - From spiritually hot to cold.


By reading into this prophecy we should be able to discern where we are and make decisions to correct our paths. I heard a Methodist preacher who was pastor of a Baptist church once joke that the Baptists didn't believe in backsliding but the Methodists practiced it! Anyone in a church ought to be so focused on the paths their people are traveling that whats going on in other denominations simply doesn't matter.

I'm not Protestant. But who do you think you are to call all the Protestants Spiritually dead? Spiritually dead is pretty much a condemnation.

How many times are you going to post what you think are the nowadays and past churches comparisons?

 

[rockytopva]

I'm not Protestant. But who do you think you are to call all the Protestants Spiritually dead? Spiritually dead is pretty much a condemnation.

How many times are you going to post what you think are the nowadays and past churches comparisons?

When the services end up cut and dry.... Well... The shoe fits.

 

[Anastacia]

When the services end up cut and dry.... Well... The shoe fits.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Some of those comparisons can also go for the other churches in many ways.

 

[rockytopva]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Some of those comparisons can also go for the other churches in many ways.

There is a difference! When I go to Gatlinburg TN I often marvel at all the Christian conferences going on. Everything is decent and in order. The young people are dressed looking nice and the events are well organized. Nobody does this like the Sardisian church.

Thyatira - Would there have been a conference?
Sardisean - Decent, well planned, and in order.
Philadelphia - Would have lacked the organization.
Laodicea - Everyone would be hanging out in shorts.

 

[Selene]

You didn't answer the question Selene. Here's the question.
And If it not important why go on about it? The way you are supporting or trying to prove this succession of teachers it appears to be of great importance to you.

For the moment lets just presume the extra biblical testimony is true. Just what does that mean or prove? Does it prove that the passing of a good preacher and his teachings are some how transferable to his replacement? If you believe so please explain. Some verses would nice as well, rather than extra biblical testimony. I also don't need to hear about the seed of Abraham, that was a blood line leading to the seed Jesus. Most understand we are not saved simply because we have Abraham as a father. If that were the case all the decedents of Hagar in "Ishmael" and the Pharisees as well could make the same claim. We see that being a Pharisee following the line from Moses did not insure or guarantee the transfer of Gods message. So, like I said just what does it prove?

My brother, where in my post did I say that it is not important. You asked what does it mean or prove, and I answered that question in my last post. It proved that God's message of love and Truth was meant to reach everyone throughout the entire world and to all generations, not just to the generation of the Apostles.

 

[Selene]

Selene... I agree with that post. My view of the church's....

Ephesus - Apostolic
Smyrna - Martyrs
Pergomos - Orthodox
Thyatira - Catholic
Sardis - Protestant
Philadelphia - Methodist / Pentecostal
Laodicea - Non denominational / Charismatic

The Catholic church is a totally different school of thought from the rest of them... But Christian all the same. The key is that quote of yours " The important thing is to be one with our Lord Jesus Christ." Jesus is our ticket to heaven!

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. - John 20:31

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. - Acts 16:31

We may all be of different doctrines, but our faith in Jesus as our mediator with the Heavenly Father is what ought to unite us! I personally welcome all Catholics to this board. I was looking into the African Orthodox church who still has maintained their Christian faith without the European influence. I regard these people as brothers even though they are not at all of my persuasion. Here is a beautiful video of the African Orthodox church!

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=NJfbtupcGbs

Hello Rocytopva,

Thank you for the video. Our Orthodox brothers are very close to us. :)

In Christ,
Selene

 

[jacobtaylor]

My brother, where in my post did I say that it is not important. You asked what does it mean or prove, and I answered that question in my last post. It proved that God's message of love and Truth was meant to reach everyone throughout the entire world and to all generations, not just to the generation of the Apostles.

You didn't say it was unimportant, but you never said why so now Im guessing.

And we have to know who begot who. Why?

Where is the verse that says we will know them "our brothers" by the line of pastors from Peter or Paul? And they will present letters proving the are from me, Jesus.
Sounds kind of ridiculous to me. Is this your faith as well. You believe there is some magic that is passed on from pope to pope? Im asking you to explain it. Tell me why I should believe it as well.

 

[aspen]

Hi Sister Selene,

I am enjoying learning from you on this thread - keep up the good work!

blessings

 

[jacobtaylor]

Hi Sister Selene,

I am enjoying learning from you on this thread - keep up the good work!

blessings

All Im learning is many Christians avoid direct questions about what and why the believe. Why do they whisper in secret and not shout from the rooftops. Are you hiding something? Ashamed, embarrassed, or simply don't know, its just something you were taught?

If selene said all that matters is Jesus, why all the hoopla about the line of teachers?

 

[aspen]

All Im learning is many Christians avoid direct questions about what and why the believe. Why do they whisper in secret and not shout from the rooftops. Are you hiding something? Ashamed, embarrassed, or simply don't know, its just something you were taught?

If selene said all that matters is Jesus, why all the hoopla about the line of teachers?

I am not going to answer for my sister, but I do think she has answered your question about Apostolic Succession. From reading the thread, it looks to me like you are really asking her to convince you of Apostolic Succession; I am sure you know it is impossible to convince anyone of anything, truth or not. Perhaps you should take your own advice - the same advice you gave me today; simply agree to disagree.

Just a thought.

 

[jacobtaylor]

I am not going to answer for my sister, but I do think she has answered your question about Apostolic Succession. From reading the thread, it looks to me like you are really asking her to convince you of Apostolic Succession; I am sure you know it is impossible to convince anyone of anything, truth or not. Perhaps you should take your own advice - the same advice you gave me today; simply agree to disagree.

Just a thought.

Can you point me to this explanation?
Hard to convince someone if they never say it as well. Whats to disagree about? nether you or selene will explain the importance of this knowing who succeeded who. Apparently its very important to Catholics. Who cares If Christ is taught.. Is it necessary to believe in this. It kind of reminds me of the Da Vinci code. The passing on of the secret knowledge or power, secret hand shakes and signs. Who has the white gold ring sort of thing. Who is the successor of peter ??? does it matter??? stay tuned same vat channel same vat time.

I can't help but poke a little fun at your big secret. I promise not to tell.
And it makes little sense to debate an issue and not have the proponent explain why its important, :) would you agree? :)