The Church At Rome
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aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Thanks for your opinion Rockytopva - I always like to read your posts.
I need to be clear - I was stating my belief and journey into the Catholic church in my recent posts. The statements I made are personal and could be wrong - I am not claiming to be a teacher, nor am I claiming separation from my sisters and brothers in Christ. We are justified and in the process of being sanctified by the same Jesus and I look forward to sitting at the same table at the same feast together in Heaven.
This is a serious and honest question: How do people who defend making and bowing to statues (things God hates), and calling a man on earth "Holy Father," among other things---how do these people believe they are obeying Jesus' commands and remaining in God's love?
Selene
New Member
Jacob, I already explained that in my post, and even showed biblical scripture on it. St. Paul told Timothy to pass on what he learned from him so that others would also be fit to teach the Word of God. I have noticed that you had nothing to say about that post. As for the line from pope to pope, see my other post about the historical documents dating back to the first century.
If all you want to know is why we continually keep the Apostolic succession by knowing who the Popes are, the answer is simple. It is because it is part of OUR history. After all, American keeps track of who their Presidents are starting from George Washington. So, what is wrong with remembering our history and where we came from? Our history tells us that we are the Church founded by Christ through the Apostle Peter. Why is it important to know this history? Probably for the same reason why it's important for Americans to know who founded their country and who their first President was.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I send a bit of time on the catholic answers forum. In spite of all the official requirements and regulations concerning what you must believe and what sacraments must be observed most catholics don't practice their religion.
So you are making a generalization about Catholics based on the crowd you spent time with at Catholic Answers? God forbid I base my opinion of Protestants based on the crowd I run into on Protestant sites - lol. Let's be reasonable and not judge a church by it's pew-sitters, ok?
My other observation from time spent on catholic answers is most catholics don't know what scripture is sacred and what is not. Its clear the several NT passages that are used to support sacrements and Mt 16 as the foundation threw Peter are uncompromisable.
All scripture is sacred.
But the OT is open to any number of personal revelations. Now you may point and say non catholic denominations don't agree on the meaning of scripture that is true. But they do limit the scope to scripture alone. So if men can't agree on the meaning of certain biblical context how does taking the liberty of adding to or subtracting from, bring agreement closer? It cant, never will and only adds to an already controversial topic. Catholic believed they had found the solution by election and susesion. By giving one man supreme dominion. Well history proves this to be a big mistake in both the OT and in the histry of the RCC.
All churches rely on sacred tradition - if you did not, you would know what books belonged in the Bible. The Bible was assembled by a Catholic council. The very source of your authority was assembled by sacred tradition.
You are a great example of a RCC believer, you are committed to supporting the church but because of the liberty non sola scripture provides you have formulated your own interpretation that differs from Roman teachings as well as non Roman teachings.
Every Christian has their own understanding of Christianity and doctrine. All we can do is formulate an opinion of the truth. I freely admit that I may be wrong on some issues - and I am thankful that the Catholic Church has given me access to a long history of Christians that have struggled and formulated their opinions about the same truths. As far as the Bible is concerned - I believe it is inspired, just like the church that Christ started on Earth 2000+ years ago - your church is included in that body. Where we run into trouble is when we latch onto our believes so tightly that we snuff out the Spirit and our leaders and as a result, become unteachable.
Your the perfect high-breed catholic. I can hear your reply even now. Your going to claim you do follow and defend catholic doctrine. Well the truth is nearly every catholic I have met doesn't. And openly admit that fact on the forum.
I believe the Catholic Church teaches the truth about Christ in the fullest manner. I also believe that it is very good at teaching maturity if you are willing to look for it. One of the issues I had with Protestantism - conservative Protestantism and the "seeker church mentality" vs. the mainline Protestant "country club mentality". Either churches were actively seeking new converts (not a bad idea) and not ministering to the growing Christian or they were fostering a closed group of comfortable members. I remember attending a Protestant church that did alter calls every service - even though I didn't participate every time I felt like I was starting all over again every week with Jesus - it would be like having a new wedding every week whenever I had a conflict with my wife - there was zero growth. On the other hand, I worked at a country club church as a youth director - I had to quit my job because I found it to be sinful to lead people to the very church I was apart of. The Catholic Church has an incredible vault of wisdom and maturity that was simply not accessible to me as a Protestant because the people who wrote down their opinions on truth were considered outside of the Christian faith simply for being Catholic.
I guess you can call me a high breed Catholic - like a high quality domesticated cow, if you want to. All I can say is that I have found incredible truth in the Catholic Church and I wasn't even looking for it.
Theres the whole list of necessary sacraments that must be preformed by the catholic church along with being a member to be in a state of full sanctification.
All of the sacraments are methods of practicing our sanctification. All sacraments are secondary to loving our neighbor through service. However, I have noticed that I burn out if I do not reconnect with my local body of believers as much as I possiblly can, through the sacraments.
You as well as 99% of professing Catholics never mention it or follow it. I think its largely due to the fact that 99% of Catholics simply dont comply with there church requirements. Marys special place in Catholicism is a good example its a church dogma but Catholics on the forum tell other members they can take it or leave it. If the pope enforced strict compliance on the professing members I would say he would be obligated to excommunicate 99% of his church. My over all observation is the RCC breads nothing but high-breed believers today, followers of the catholic faith in word alone. The Roman church seams to be fine with this policy so long as everyone professes they are Catholics.
So you learned this all from the Catholic Answers forum? If you are really interested in what Catholics believe read the Catholic Catechism; go to Mass; talk to a priest; or visit a monastery. The fact is, if you spend your time looking for commitment amongst pew sitters, you do not have to leave your own congregation to be disappointed. Of course, if it is important for you to discredit Catholicism, by all means proceed on your present course - there are many people out there who need to discredit all other methods, but their own to feel secure and right.
One more thing I think the numbers of members are way out of whack. For example a catholic mother can take 12 kids to the church and have them baptized. Their names go on the roll as members whether these kids ever step into a catholic church again in their life. The only way to get off is to send a letter and ask to be removed and just how many do that. Their are no doubt 1000s on the list that probably don't even know there on it.
So numbers are important to you? It is true that Catholicism still has a culture and many people who are Catholic, like Jewish people are only culturally Catholic. I think this says more about the strength of the community, rather than the weakness of the doctrine.
Funny you mention the above. I've had catholics tell me Im catholic whether I like it or not. By virtue of the Pope being the head of all christians on earth, that God works exclusively threw the Pope and then to the catholic church and then to all other Christians. Im like wow dude thats a scary thought. Its like you really think that. Like give me the paper to sign that says I want the pope to stay out of my business forever. I always thought that no man knows where the spirit comes from or goes. But these people adamantly insist all christians are catholic, thou they are not in full communion with Rome they might still get to heaven but it will be a rough ride. And in the same forum these catholics take any number of exceptions to church regulations for them selves but insist I compile. It's like after you become catholic the rules no longer apply. Your now a high-breed and can pick or choose at your leisure. Well I'll take the hard road alone if need be thank you. No special crackers or sacraments that have no power to save or guarantee salvation for me. I'll take my chances with the bible alone.
I really do not have an opinion on this. Once again, you can believe whatever you want to believe and so can those who hold universal beliefs. I do think it is ironic, however, that Protestants often refer to Catholics as elitist snobs for promoting the idea that you have to be Catholic to go to Heaven and now I am hearing this objection. So which is it?
[sup]
This verse tells me the pope has no control over the Holy Spirit.
7[/sup] Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ [sup]8[/sup] The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
The Pope would agree with you.
But of course with no such thing as sola scripture, the above scripture is subject to being trumped every time. So why bother even bother reading the bible? Just be a high-breed catholic and dream your own dream. Sounds a bit like Oprah or one of her guru guest teachers. But In my opinion thats just what the RCC has become in today's world. It seeks to satisfy everyone as long your a professing member. I say these things from my experiences on the catholic answers forum.
Are there any other heretics, pagans, or gurus that you would like to compare me (a high-breed Catholic) to? Perhaps your rant has been effective to convince you that your doctrine is right because mine is wrong - or I may be hearing more from you in the future - hey, whatever it takes to keep you committed to Christ. Like I said before - I have no need to defend the truth.
BYW they have like zero tolerance for people that question the Roman church, catholic answers forum that is. Makes you wonder what would happen if the RCC was enforced by governmental law again yiks
Catholic should be thankful they are allowed the liberty to frequent forums like this, the catholic forums have no such tolerance. Your pro catholic or your gone. The shoe fits only one way the catholic way.
I am not a fan of any form of theocracy. Government corrupts all religion.
In any case, thanks for your opinion.
blessings
Anastacia - please refer to the 25+ pages of Questions for a Catholic thread for the answer we provided when you asked the same questions in the past.
thanks and blessings
So you are making a generalization about Catholics based on the crowd you spent time with at Catholic Answers? God forbid I base my opinion of Protestants based on the crowd I run into on Protestant sites - lol. Let's be reasonable and not judge a church by it's pew-sitters, ok?
My other observation from time spent on catholic answers is most catholics don't know what scripture is sacred and what is not. Its clear the several NT passages that are used to support sacrements and Mt 16 as the foundation threw Peter are uncompromisable.
All scripture is sacred.
But the OT is open to any number of personal revelations. Now you may point and say non catholic denominations don't agree on the meaning of scripture that is true. But they do limit the scope to scripture alone. So if men can't agree on the meaning of certain biblical context how does taking the liberty of adding to or subtracting from, bring agreement closer? It cant, never will and only adds to an already controversial topic. Catholic believed they had found the solution by election and susesion. By giving one man supreme dominion. Well history proves this to be a big mistake in both the OT and in the histry of the RCC.
All churches rely on sacred tradition - if you did not, you would know what books belonged in the Bible. The Bible was assembled by a Catholic council. The very source of your authority was assembled by sacred tradition.
You are a great example of a RCC believer, you are committed to supporting the church but because of the liberty non sola scripture provides you have formulated your own interpretation that differs from Roman teachings as well as non Roman teachings.
Every Christian has their own understanding of Christianity and doctrine. All we can do is formulate an opinion of the truth. I freely admit that I may be wrong on some issues - and I am thankful that the Catholic Church has given me access to a long history of Christians that have struggled and formulated their opinions about the same truths. As far as the Bible is concerned - I believe it is inspired, just like the church that Christ started on Earth 2000+ years ago - your church is included in that body. Where we run into trouble is when we latch onto our believes so tightly that we snuff out the Spirit and our leaders and as a result, become unteachable.
Your the perfect high-breed catholic. I can hear your reply even now. Your going to claim you do follow and defend catholic doctrine. Well the truth is nearly every catholic I have met doesn't. And openly admit that fact on the forum.
I believe the Catholic Church teaches the truth about Christ in the fullest manner. I also believe that it is very good at teaching maturity if you are willing to look for it. One of the issues I had with Protestantism - conservative Protestantism and the "seeker church mentality" vs. the mainline Protestant "country club mentality". Either churches were actively seeking new converts (not a bad idea) and not ministering to the growing Christian or they were fostering a closed group of comfortable members. I remember attending a Protestant church that did alter calls every service - even though I didn't participate every time I felt like I was starting all over again every week with Jesus - it would be like having a new wedding every week whenever I had a conflict with my wife - there was zero growth. On the other hand, I worked at a country club church as a youth director - I had to quit my job because I found it to be sinful to lead people to the very church I was apart of. The Catholic Church has an incredible vault of wisdom and maturity that was simply not accessible to me as a Protestant because the people who wrote down their opinions on truth were considered outside of the Christian faith simply for being Catholic.
I guess you can call me a high breed Catholic - like a high quality domesticated cow, if you want to. All I can say is that I have found incredible truth in the Catholic Church and I wasn't even looking for it.
Theres the whole list of necessary sacraments that must be preformed by the catholic church along with being a member to be in a state of full sanctification.
All of the sacraments are methods of practicing our sanctification. All sacraments are secondary to loving our neighbor through service. However, I have noticed that I burn out if I do not reconnect with my local body of believers as much as I possiblly can, through the sacraments.
You as well as 99% of professing Catholics never mention it or follow it. I think its largely due to the fact that 99% of Catholics simply dont comply with there church requirements. Marys special place in Catholicism is a good example its a church dogma but Catholics on the forum tell other members they can take it or leave it. If the pope enforced strict compliance on the professing members I would say he would be obligated to excommunicate 99% of his church. My over all observation is the RCC breads nothing but high-breed believers today, followers of the catholic faith in word alone. The Roman church seams to be fine with this policy so long as everyone professes they are Catholics.
So you learned this all from the Catholic Answers forum? If you are really interested in what Catholics believe read the Catholic Catechism; go to Mass; talk to a priest; or visit a monastery. The fact is, if you spend your time looking for commitment amongst pew sitters, you do not have to leave your own congregation to be disappointed. Of course, if it is important for you to discredit Catholicism, by all means proceed on your present course - there are many people out there who need to discredit all other methods, but their own to feel secure and right.
One more thing I think the numbers of members are way out of whack. For example a catholic mother can take 12 kids to the church and have them baptized. Their names go on the roll as members whether these kids ever step into a catholic church again in their life. The only way to get off is to send a letter and ask to be removed and just how many do that. Their are no doubt 1000s on the list that probably don't even know there on it.
So numbers are important to you? It is true that Catholicism still has a culture and many people who are Catholic, like Jewish people are only culturally Catholic. I think this says more about the strength of the community, rather than the weakness of the doctrine.
Funny you mention the above. I've had catholics tell me Im catholic whether I like it or not. By virtue of the Pope being the head of all christians on earth, that God works exclusively threw the Pope and then to the catholic church and then to all other Christians. Im like wow dude thats a scary thought. Its like you really think that. Like give me the paper to sign that says I want the pope to stay out of my business forever. I always thought that no man knows where the spirit comes from or goes. But these people adamantly insist all christians are catholic, thou they are not in full communion with Rome they might still get to heaven but it will be a rough ride. And in the same forum these catholics take any number of exceptions to church regulations for them selves but insist I compile. It's like after you become catholic the rules no longer apply. Your now a high-breed and can pick or choose at your leisure. Well I'll take the hard road alone if need be thank you. No special crackers or sacraments that have no power to save or guarantee salvation for me. I'll take my chances with the bible alone.
I really do not have an opinion on this. Once again, you can believe whatever you want to believe and so can those who hold universal beliefs. I do think it is ironic, however, that Protestants often refer to Catholics as elitist snobs for promoting the idea that you have to be Catholic to go to Heaven and now I am hearing this objection. So which is it?
[sup]
This verse tells me the pope has no control over the Holy Spirit.
7[/sup] Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ [sup]8[/sup] The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
The Pope would agree with you.
But of course with no such thing as sola scripture, the above scripture is subject to being trumped every time. So why bother even bother reading the bible? Just be a high-breed catholic and dream your own dream. Sounds a bit like Oprah or one of her guru guest teachers. But In my opinion thats just what the RCC has become in today's world. It seeks to satisfy everyone as long your a professing member. I say these things from my experiences on the catholic answers forum.
Are there any other heretics, pagans, or gurus that you would like to compare me (a high-breed Catholic) to? Perhaps your rant has been effective to convince you that your doctrine is right because mine is wrong - or I may be hearing more from you in the future - hey, whatever it takes to keep you committed to Christ. Like I said before - I have no need to defend the truth.
BYW they have like zero tolerance for people that question the Roman church, catholic answers forum that is. Makes you wonder what would happen if the RCC was enforced by governmental law again yiks
Catholic should be thankful they are allowed the liberty to frequent forums like this, the catholic forums have no such tolerance. Your pro catholic or your gone. The shoe fits only one way the catholic way.I am not a fan of any form of theocracy. Government corrupts all religion.
In any case, thanks for your opinion.
blessings
Anastacia - please refer to the 25+ pages of Questions for a Catholic thread for the answer we provided when you asked the same questions in the past.
thanks and blessings
Well there isn't an acceptable excuse in those pages. Looks like you don't have an excuse now either. You don't even have to answer me, I know the answer, but a Catholic should be asking and answering themselves that question.
Catholics are heretics and apostate from their own religion if they don't believe everything the Catholic religion teaches. I guess that doesn't bother Catholics either.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
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Convince a Sardisean? We could be here until Jesus came and fill up Mr Hammerstone's allocated space and still not make any headway. John Calvin was the first hard core Sardisean and unfortunately for the rest of us his spirit never did die!
You judge me according to your nowadays comparison of the churches, and you judge falsely at that. I'm not even a Calvinist....lol
You just have to have the last word about this. Didn't I tell you that you don't have to answer to me? You will have to answer one day though.
God bless.
Selene
New Member
Hi Brother Aspen,
Thank you. I am also learning things myself. My priest said that I am still in the infant stage, so I still have a lot to learn.
They are training me and my community to be catechists, but we're still in the infant stage of learning. In Christ,
Selene
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