Excuse me coming in at this point but this statement is worthy of a response.
[/color][/b]
Indeed not but then a whole lot of others things are missing which we take for grated these days.
Besides, it seems that Paul is re-working the meaning of the word 'apostle'. As someone pointed out earlier an 'apostle' was one who had been selected by Jesus himself during his earthly ministry.
The Church, despite the enormous baggage it brings with it, is the most remarkable institution known to humanity. It has, in spite of itself, has survive two millennia and is still a powerful political, economic and spiritual force in the world today.
Whether the Church is governed by popes or patriarchs matters little - names as such polysemic things.
The problem faced by the fledging Church was how to carry on once the Apostles passed beyond the human vale. How was the various 'churches' to be organized? Could they be organized into some organic whole? What was common amongst them if anything be held in common? And, how does one go about determining just what is is that drives the various churches forward? At the same time we have to remember that there were many 'christianities' in circulation in those early years.
Not an easy task when it was to one's disadvantage to be identified with this new 'sect'.
The text called the Didache throws some light on the problem and how one 'church', or community' went about solving these issues.
So the whole question of whether the Church is the keeper of the Flame is moot (I cannot accept the use of the word 'source' in the OP - certainly the Church is not the 'source' of truth). The Church, for better or worst, has accepted the role and has, despite the obvious limitations, bought the Gospels thus far. What we do next is up to this generation.
Hi wayseer,
The wheat and the tares grow up together and God will separate them. That is why the scriptures say: "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal,
The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." 2Ti_2:19
One thing we learn from all the stories in the OT is that God's "building" and His "city" will not be started, maintained or completed by men's ingenuity and cleverness.
Zec_4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying,
Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
We also know from history that God has had a people (remnant) in every generation and this generation is no different. God has a people today whose hearts are "perfect toward Him" (2 Ch 16:9).
The fact that there is a remnant of believers on the earth today who are faithful to Jesus Christ testifies not to man's power and might and ingenuity but to the keeping and saving power of the Lord Jesus Christ who said, "I, I, I, I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". The ONE who said
I WILL has always remained the Head of His Church and He has kept His promise to build
HIS church and He directs and leads and guides His Church in every generation by the Holy Spirit. Despite the religious tares that are being sown to make the "ground" so dense with "weeds" that no wheat can grow, sprigs of wheat are still shooting up here and there. The tares greatly outnumber the wheat and that according to Scripture, but the wheat is still there and new shoots are still coming up.
1Pe_3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
Heb_13:5 Let your conversation be without
covetousness; and
be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said,
I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Axehead
Regarding Paul,
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8
And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1Co 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain;
but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Hi Axehead,
I'm slightly bemused by this apposition and would like to re-interpret it.
The incident with James and John came first (assisted by their mother making the request), before the cross, and Jesus tells them they don't know what spirit they are of, and asks if they can undergo the baptism He is to be baptised with, which they say, 'Yes'. And He agrees.
That baptism (of fire) was His death. All of us will die and will have to pass through this 'fire'.
The 'spirit' they were of, was Satan, who wants to be God and to occupy the highest place.
By the time the church existed in which Diotrephes had a role, (of whom John wrote), we know Pentecost has occurred, but this man still has the attitude of Satan, not having understood some of Jesus' basic teachings about servanthood, and the last being first.
It is almost incredible that so soon, a 'church leader' would not 'receive' an apostle who'd known Jesus Christ in the flesh. 2 Cor 5:16
Hi dragonfly,
Yes, I realize Diotrophes came after and I should have said they (James and John) exhibited the same spirit as Diotrephes. You see, until we all embrace the cross and put our religious flesh to death, any piece of it still unsubmitted to the Lordship of Christ, will want to "help" Him out or sometimes, just move Him to the side and take over.
Diotrephes is a picture of the religious system today, who has nothing but disdain for God's people. The only thing that matters to Diotrephes is himself and his "church" and that everyone bows down to him. Diotrephes is not a true church "leader" though he has his own church. Not receiving an Apostle of Jesus Christ should tip everyone off to what spirit was manifesting in Diotrephes.
The spirit of Diotrephes is still here today, permeating the religious system which has disdain and hatred for simple, followers of Christ. Diotrephes sets himself over others as their authority and when a true saint of God come near him, he knows he will be exposed so he lashes out at the man of God.
3Jn 1:10 Wherefore, if I come,
I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith,
neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
Spirit of Diotrephes:
Loves preeminence among men (in other words he is the head, the "big cheese")
Prates against God's people with malicious words.
Not content with what God has been allotted to him. (He wants it all).
Does not receive the brethren (because they don't flatter and bow down to him)
Forbids others (under his control) to fellowship with the brethren
Casts true brethren out of his church.
This is a picture of religious men.
Joh_13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you,
He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
The Spirit of God is still saying today, to "
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Come to the Lord Jesus with your whole heart and do not be joined to anything else in your heart but Him."[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Axehead[/background]
Can you say "Ronald McDonald"? Does it matter who wears his "priestly garb"? Is this not the exact same visual uniformity that is being perpetrated on an unsuspecting (and un-spiritual) people who still walk by sight and NOT by faith?
