The context of 1 Thess 5:1

[quietthinker]

I do believe in being Spirit Filled, but we can not Spiritually make the Physical event's go away!

Spiritual fulfilment does not mean an absence of the physical. It means the fulfilment has a deeper seat with its application far more pertinent.
For example, when Jesus said unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you.
It would be primitive and uninformed to understand this literally. It is no different in other applications.

 

[Truth]

Since Bible prophecy MUST be fulfilled, you are clearly mistaken.

Had you carefully studied the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21) you would not have made such a statement.

In the Olivet Discourse, Christ already predicted the destruction of Herod's temple, which came to pass in 70 AD. At the same time, He spoke about a future "Holy Place" in a future third temple, within which the Abomination of Desolation (an idol) would be set up.

Today there is no temple in Jerusalem, but there are many Jews who have determined that there will be one built there, and detailed plans have been made for this temple and its sacrifices. God will ALLOW this temple to be built, otherwise the Man of Sin will not have a temple to desecrate, and fulfil Bible prophecy pertaining to the Great Tribulation.

So instead of making categorical statements about no temple and no Abomination of Desolation in the future, Christians should carefully study all the prophecies regarding what is to happen before the second coming of Christ (which will also be LITERAL, PHYSICAL, and VISIBLE to all the inhabitants of the world).

You do not need a Temple Building, to bring the Holy Place [ 500 cubit by 500 cubit Temple Mount] to desolation! All one has to do is stop ONE Tamid Offering, and the Alter is null and void, just placing a Idol on that holy ground desecrates it. that is an Abomination. An active Alter, a cornerstone for the building, on that place is all that is needed and is except-able to God! The third Temple is going to descend from our Father's dwelling place!

 

[Enoch111]

You do not need a Temple Building, to bring the Holy Place [ 500 cubit by 500 cubit Temple Mount] to desolation!

There can be no "Holy Place" if there is no Temple. The Holy Place was well inside the Temple always.

 

[Helen]

Amazing how everyone is so sure of what they believe.
I think there are only about 4 people on this Site who write and a post and then say- " This is how I see it" Or,- "This is my opinion of that scripture "
Or imho. Most everyone writes as if they have it all 'down pat' and very sure of themselves.

 

[larry2]

There can be no "Holy Place" if there is no Temple. The Holy Place was well inside the Temple always.

I would just ask what if anything about present Jewish worship even with their temples could be considered holy? Even now Israel doesn't require a temple (Ezra 3:6) to offer their daily sacrifice that is to be taken away according to Dan 12:11 below 30 days prior to the tribulation.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Will not the holy place the abomination of desolation seeks, is to be worshipped as God? King Nebuchadnezzar attempted to enter that same realm in Dan 3:5-6.

 

[Jun2u]

Is 1 Thess 5:1 telling us that we do not need scripture, youtube or the internet to know when the Day of the Lord comes.

Most certainly not! Scripture yes internet definitely no! Those who look outside the Bible for their spiritual answers will always err.

This OP is a classic example, for we read:

Mark 13:28-37

28) Now learn the parable of the fig tree (National Israel); When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves (became a nation once again amongst the nations of the world), ye know that summer is near.

29) So ye like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30) Verily I say unto you; that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

31) Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away

32) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Taher.

33) Take ye heed, WATCH and PRAY: for ye know not when the time is.

34) For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35) WATCH ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36) Lest coming suddenly he finds you sleeping.

37) And what I say unto you I say unto all,...WATCH.

How do we Watch? By prayer and reading the Bible!!! NEVER by other means.

Most “Christians” do not know how to read nor understand Scriptures, let alone know how to connect the dots.

The “Great Tribulation” and “Abomination of Desolation” are synonymous. The Abomination of Desolation is found in Matthew 24 and Daniel 11 and 12.

And, there is NOT to be another temple to be built in the future, for Christ IS the SANCTUARY (temple)! No one has really understood that there are two events in Daniel’s 70 Weeks. Many theologians or Bible students do not really search out scriptures like the Bereans, who searched out the Scripture if it was so. Even if the commentaries seemed holy because their best work is still tainted by sin.

Proverbs 25:2

“It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings (believers) is to search out a matter.”

To God Be The Glory

 

[Heb 13:8]

How do we Watch? By prayer and reading the Bible!!! NEVER by other means.

 

[Enoch111]

I would just ask what if anything about present Jewish worship even with their temples could be considered holy?

You are asking this from a Christian perspective, and from that perspective it is all unholy, since Christ and the Holy Spirit are absent. So that is not the issue.

However, if you put yourself in the place of an unbelieving Orthodox Jew, still waiting for your true Messiah, then a temple in Jerusalem with a Holy Place, and all the levitical trappings makes perfect sense.

And there must be a temple standing in Jerusalem in order to fulfil this prophecy:Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.(2 Thess 2:4).

 

[larry2]

there must be a temple standing in Jerusalem in order to fulfil this prophecy:Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.(2 Thess 2:4).

Just a thought here is that the elect are the temple of God, and not a temple made with hands. I'm not convinced by all the the discussion who the two wittnesses will be that represent God to the masses of that terrible time to come; but I suspect it to be two groups with Jesus when He takes His own throne in Rev 4:2 at the very beginning of the tribulation. Of course it is that one against Christ that will have them killed at the middle of the week. I see him attempting to not only convince the world that he is God, but those very messengers of God at that time.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

 

[quietthinker]

Just a thought here is that the elect are the temple of God, and not a temple made with hands. I'm not convinced by all the the discussion who the two wittnesses will be that represent God to the masses of that terrible time to come; but I suspect it to be two groups with Jesus when He takes His own throne in Rev 4:2 at the very beginning of the tribulation. Of course it is that one against Christ that will have them killed at the middle of the week. I see him attempting to not only convince the world that he is God, but those very messengers of God at that time.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Hey larry, you're onto it with 1 Corinthians 3:16 Follow it through mate!
Consider this also, the two witnesses being his testaments, old and new

 

[Enoch111]

Just a thought here is that the elect are the temple of God, and not a temple made with hands.

Once again, you are presenting the Christian perspective, which is correct and fine, but it has no relevance to Orthodox Jews.

One of the fundamental tenets of Orthodox Jews is that they are presently waiting for their Messiah. The future temple and Messiah are connected, and for them Messiah must come first.

The Temple Institute (in Hebrew, Machon HaMikdash), founded in 1987, is a non-profit educational and religious organization located in the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem's Old City. The Institute is dedicated to every aspect of the Biblical commandment to build the Holy Temple of G-d on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem. Our short-term goal is to rekindle the flame of the Holy Temple in the hearts of mankind through education. Our long-term goal is to do all in our limited power to bring about the building of the Holy Temple in our time.

The Temple Institute: About The Temple Institute

 

[Truth]

There can be no "Holy Place" if there is no Temple. The Holy Place was well inside the Temple always.

That would be the Holy of Holy's

 

[brakelite]

Paul describes in great detail what the NT temple is. Larry's mention of 1 Cor 3:16 is just one of many clues that reveal the church as being the NT temple of God, of which Jesus Himself is the cornerstone, the apostles the foundations, and we the building blocks that have been added since. It is an entity that is constantly growing and developing, and within which is Christ the High Priest Himself in Spirit (the Light, Bread of Life, Altar of Incence/Mediator) and that which was in the Most Holy Place, The presence of the Father and His law. (See Hebrews 8:10). The real temple, built without hands, is in heaven where Christ in person officiates before the Father's throne. But on earth, the church is the temple, having within the spiritual manifestations of the literal, and it is in this temple that abomination of desolation is now being set up.
Satan is a wise crafty being, who is not going to waste time, energy, and effort in attacking a literal nation that already spurns any notion of Jesus being their Messiah. He already has them in his hands, and keeping them in a state of unbelief suits him fine. Nah, his focus is on the church. The deceptions Jesus warned about...the controversies...the false doctrines...the persecutions...the lethargy...the pride and sanctimoniousness...the idea that all is well and we have need of nothing...all these are leading the church, not literal Israel, into a state of mind where acceptance of the counterfeit will be not just tolerated, but welcomed. The state of modern Israel, and Zionism, both Christian and Jewish, along with Islam, are but minor bit players in the great play unfolding in our lifetime. While the worlds attention driven by Satanic media is focusing on the negatives of these players making them loom large and inciting fear in many minds, the real and present danger is being either ignored or being deceptively portrayed as our friend.
Jesus warned us to beware deception. But todays church is miserable, poor, blind, and naked. It is already deceived and doesn't know.

 

[Enoch111]

But on earth, the church is the temple, having within the spiritual manifestations of the literal, and it is in this temple that abomination of desolation is now being set up.

You will not be able to reconcile this with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. Bible prophecy needs to be taken in its plain literal sense.

 

[Jay Ross]

You will not be able to reconcile this with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. Bible prophecy needs to be taken in its plain literal sense.

But does not this portion of the passage that you referenced support, what @brakelite posted?

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Enoch111]

But does not this portion of the passage that you referenced support, what @brakelite posted?

Not really. The Church (the redeemed of the Lord) by definition is the Temple of the Holy Ghost. Therefore Satan and the Antichrist cannot possibly displace God the Holy Spirit. And 2 Thess 2:4 says that the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition (the Antichrist) sits in the temple of God, calling himself, and acting as though he is "God" -- "so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God".

Which brings us back to a literal brick and mortar future temple in Jerusalem where this prophecy will be fulfilled (and Jews in Israel are committed to building the third temple).

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This prophecy pertains to the Antichrist. So what we have here is this:
1. The Mystery of Iniquity is already working in this world, i.e. the spirit of antichrist is already at work (as we can see all around us).
2. The Holy Spirit -- the Divine Restrainer -- is restraining Satan from taking full and absolute control of the inhabitants of the world (which he will be allowed to do for 3 1/2 years -- see Rev 13)
3. The Antichrist will be eventually revealed when the Spirit is taken out of the way, but will also be destroyed supernaturally by Christ (at the battle of Armageddon).
4. However, during those 3 1/2 years Satan will use signs and lying wonders to convince the world that the Antichrist is both God and Christ (counterfeit miracles -- see Rev 13).
5. These counterfeit miracles will deceive the whole world, particularly those who rejected the Gospel and the truth of God.
God will send strong delusion upon the unbelieving and ungodly world so that they will be deceived by Satan into worshiping him and the Antichrist (see Rev 13) and taking the Mark of the Beast.

This should serve as a warning to all unbelievers who read the Bible.

 

[larry2]

The Antichrist will be eventually revealed when the Spirit is taken out of the way, but will also be destroyed supernaturally by Christ (at the battle of Armageddon).

Hi Brother Enoch, what I need to ask is what makes you think the Holy Spirit will ever be removed? How would any beyond that point have the benefit hearing the word. I will agree that there is someone that will be removed prior to God allowing allowing the man of sin to even be revealed whose reign will be during the second half of the week of tribulation. Thanks.

 

[Enoch111]

Hi Brother Enoch, what I need to ask is what makes you think the Holy Spirit will ever be removed?

Hi Brother Larry. The question we need to ask ourselves is "Who is the Restrainer of Satan (the one behind the Mystery of Iniquity)?", since obvious there is a Restrainer, and unless His restraint is "taken out of the way" Satan and the Antichrist ("whose coming is after the working of Satan") cannot take absolute control of the earth's inhabitants for 3 1/2 years.

"... only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." (2 Thess 2:7) Since this is 17th century English, the meaning is not evident immediately. So when we look at the NASB and the ESV, it becomes clearer: ...only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way, or ...only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

We know from Jude that even the Archangel Michael dared not bring *railing accusation* again Satan, but said "The Lord rebuke thee". Obviously Michael could not be the Restrainer of Satan, but from the book of Job it is crystal clear that God Himself is the Restrainer. Thus God the Holy Spirit on earth is the present Restrainer of Satan (while the Gospel is being preached, and souls are being saved).

As to the benefit of hearing the Word at that time we have (1) the two faithful witnesses on earth during the reign of the Antichrist (which I believe are Moses and Elijah) who preach for 3 1/2 years (1260 days -- see Rev 11), and (2) the flying angel "having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.(Rev 14:6,7).

People were saved on earth from Abel to the thief of the cross BEFORE the Holy Spirit came down on the day of Pentecost, so that cannot be an objection to the absence of the Holy Spirit from the earth.

 

[larry2]

People were saved on earth from Abel to the thief of the cross BEFORE the Holy Spirit came down on the day of Pentecost, so that cannot be an objection to the absence of the Holy Spirit from the earth.

Thanks for your response. Actually to me the Holy Spirit was present before pentecost as being with believers, but not yet within them.
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This is not original with me, but I believe there a major hindrance to Satan at this time due to the efforts of the righteous. The church of Philadelphia for instance is promised to be kept from the hour of temptation to come upon all the world (first 3 1/2 years of tribulation) in Rev 3:10, the world is waxing worse, and I think they will be removed and present with the Lord as the Day of the Lord ensues. Their very absence will cause great effect on an every increasing world in unbelief, just looking for any excuse to follow someone, or something they believe has an answer to their every need.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[brakelite]

You will not be able to reconcile this with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. Bible prophecy needs to be taken in its plain literal sense.

Indeed, so why does the church invent a non-existent temple for a future literal antichrist? What is there in scripture that demands the antichrist be still future? How can a future antichrist for example fulfil literally the criteria that he grow from the head of the Roman pagan empire?
I might add, that the prophecy from 2 Thessalonians clearly states that "he as God sitteth in the temple of God." The temple of God. Any future temple built in Jerusalem, no matter how flash, how seemingly prophetic, no matter how accurately built according to he Biblical pattern, can never be the temple of God. Never. He will never, can never, dwell there in any shape or form. Such a concept of a future temple as antagonistic to every precept of the gospel. God could never approve or condone such a project, nor bless it with His presence.