The context of 1 Thess 5:1

[Truth]

Well you could certainly apply a metaphorical meaning to that idol, but Revelation 13 clearly shows that it is an "image" or idol of the Antichrist and/or Satan. Which gives its geographical boundary as the future temple at Jerusalem.

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. (Rev 13:15)

Since the image of the beast is mentioned three times in one verse, God wants us to know without the shadow of a doubt that Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation" (mentioned by Christ in Matthew 24) is none other than the image or idol of the Beast (the Antichrist). This will be the most blasphemous idolatry to ever be practiced on earth.

I do agree to some extent, have you ever read the book's of the Maccabees, there was a shadow of the end time, Abomination of Desolation!

 

[Heb 13:8]

who will in all likelihood probably be communicating, yes - via the internet, LoL.

So if we can know the Day of the Lord why are we always wrong with timelines. Many are saying the rapture is on Feast of Trumpets and The second coming of Christ is on the Day of Atonement. Can we trust the Hebrew Calendar? There have been many timelines that have come and gone, how will we know when it's the right one.

 

[Hidden In Him]

So if we can know the Day of the Lord why are we always wrong with timelines. Many are saying the rapture is on Feast of Trumpets and The second coming of Christ is on the Day of Atonement. Can we trust the Hebrew Calendar? There have been many timelines that have come and gone, how will we know when it's the right one.

I don't believe in going by timelines. I believe in simply going by events. Let me go back to my original post:

Paul's point was simply that they already knew. It's similar to what he told them in 2 Thessalonians 2:5. He knew they already knew about prophetic events that were coming because he had already told them. That's why he follows here in 1st Thessalonians with the words, "for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night..."

See, I believe the reason they already knew was because Paul taught them Matthew 24 when he was with them. This is what Jesus said to watch for, not timelines. He said to watch for when the saints will be persecuted and put to death, when the abomination that causes desolation will be set up, when the Antichrist will attempt to exterminate the Jews, when false Christs will arise, and when the sun and moon will be turned to darkness. These are the signs He said to watch for, and they are events. I don't see anywhere where He said to worry about prophetic theories about His return coming on the Day of Atonement or any other Jewish holy day. That's just conjecture, whereas Jesus was talking about being watchful to observe stone cold reality taking place.

 

[quietthinker]

when the Antichrist will attempt to exterminate the Jews,

Why would the Jews want to be exterminated? (I'm assuming you're meaning the literal nation of Israel) they are already anti Christ.
Do you expect a national shift?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Why would the Jews want to be exterminated? (I'm assuming you're meaning the literal nation of Israel) they are already anti Christ.
Do you expect a national shift?

I do believe you have lost me, Quiet Thinker. So let me just answer each statement in brief. Maybe you can address one or more of my answers specifically so I understand what you are driving at.

1. I'm not sure anyone wants to be exterminated (not even roaches or mice, LoL).
2. Yes, I meant the literal nation of Israel.
3. They have not received Christ, but I'm referring to the Antichrist forcing Islam on the Jews on threat of death.

 

[Heb 13:8]

I don't believe in going by timelines. I believe in simply going by events. Let me go back to my original post:


See, I believe the reason they already knew was because Paul taught them Matthew 24 when he was with them. This is what Jesus said to watch for, not timelines. He said to watch for when the saints will be persecuted and put to death, when the abomination that causes desolation will be set up, when the Antichrist will attempt to exterminate the Jews, when false Christs will arise, and when the sun and moon will be turned to darkness. These are the signs He said to watch for, and they are events. I don't see anywhere where He said to worry about prophetic theories about His return coming on the Day of Atonement or any other Jewish holy day. That's just conjecture, whereas Jesus was talking about being watchful to observe stone cold reality taking place.

Timelines are biblical though (1260, 1290, 1335 days). Some say the first four Feasts were already fulfilled to the day, and the last three Feasts are still future. We can't seem to get it right though .

That's a good point you made, Matt 24. However, I do believe the church will be gone prior to the abomination that causes desolation, per Rev 12:5 harpazo. The word used in Matt 24:31 is not harpazo, it's episunagó.

Watch video for further understanding.. youtube / watch?v=ICZmfGLnjuc&t=1s - Heb

 

[quietthinker]

I do believe you have lost me, Quiet Thinker. So let me just answer each statement in brief. Maybe you can address one or more of my answers specifically so I understand what you are driving at.

1. I'm not sure anyone wants to be exterminated (not even roaches or mice, LoL).
2. Yes, I meant the literal nation of Israel.
3. They have not received Christ, but I'm referring to the Antichrist forcing Islam on the Jews on threat of death.

Perhaps I have taken too much for granted by not giving my question more detail.
You said in post No.23 'when the abomination that causes desolation will be set up, when the Antichrist will attempt to exterminate the Jews,' My question is, why would the Antichrist want to exterminate the Jews (of which you say is national Israel) when the Jews are already anti Christ. The nation is opposed to Jesus in the state they are in, they are already anti Christ. They are on the side of Antichrist without further ado. Why pick on them?

 

[Hidden In Him]

That's a good point you made, Matt 24. However, I do believe the church will be gone prior to the abomination that causes desolation, per Rev 12:5 harpazo. The word used in Matt 24:31 is not harpazo, it's episunagó.

Yes, I was wondering when views on Post-trib and Pre-trib would come up. It effects interpretation greatly.

Timelines are biblical though (1260, 1290, 1335 days). Some say the first four Feasts were already fulfilled to the day, and the last three Feasts are still future. We can't seem to get it right though .

I believe the Messianics like to interpret this way especially. Can't say as I've looked into it much, but my initial reaction is to be hesitant to get too concerned about such things. Most if not all of those doing so now will never live to see that day, so it ends up being a lot of wasted energy and time on their part.

 

[Hidden In Him]

You said in post No.23 'when the abomination that causes desolation will be set up, when the Antichrist will attempt to exterminate the Jews,' My question is, why would the Antichrist want to exterminate the Jews (of which you say is national Israel) when the Jews are already anti Christ.

It's a thought-provoking question, but my initial response would be because they are God's chosen people through whom Christ entered the world. Satan hated them even before they gave birth to the Christ-child, and he hated them even more afterwards. All this is implied by what is said in Revelation 12:

"Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars [i.e. Israel]. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads... And the dragon [Satan] stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born... Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelations 12:1-4, 13-17)

 

[Enoch111]

I do agree to some extent, have you ever read the book's of the Maccabees, there was a shadow of the end time, Abomination of Desolation!

You could say that what happened at that time prefigured what is to come. But the scope and intensity of what is in the future is totally unique.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:21).

 

[Enoch111]

How does one determine the 'most' part of blaspheme?

Scripture shows us the extremity of the blasphemy.

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thess 2:4).

I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn* were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. [which is a reference to this man's blasphemies as noted above] Dan 7:8)

And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn* that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows... And he shall speak great words [blasphemies] against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (Dan 7:20,25). *"Horn" signified power and authority, and horns are used for attacking.

While some men in the past have claimed to be gods, or even God, this man (the Beast) will attack God and Christ mercilessly while he blasphemes them and claims to be "the true God" and "the true Christ".

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy... And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. (Rev 13:1,5,6).

Please note that all of this is limited to 3 1/2 years, called "a time (1 yr) and times (2 yrs) and the dividing of time (1/2 year)" in Daniel, and forty two months in Revelation.

 

[quietthinker]

It's a thought-provoking question, but my initial response would be because they are God's chosen people through whom Christ entered the world. Satan hated them even before they gave birth to the Christ-child, and he hated them even more afterwards. All this is implied by what is said in Revelation 12:

"Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars [i.e. Israel]. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads... And the dragon [Satan] stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born... Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelations 12:1-4, 13-17)

'It's a thought-provoking question'. Hidden, please let it provoke your thought.
God's people, his chosen or The Church are one and the same wether in the OT or NT. God's people are defined by those that trust and have faith in him throughout history, eg, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Elijah and so on, the whole troop of faithful witnesses. See Hebrews 11 (the complete chapter) as were Stephan and Paul, the Apostles and many others.

The woman in Revelation 12 which you have quoted are/is none other than God's people, The Church, His Chosen.
The male child referenced is Jesus born into the family of faith, ie those that place trust in God.
Placing Revelation 12 as the Jewish nation my friend is only valid if one interprets 'Jew' as Paul does meaning individuals with faith.
I'm persuaded that interpreting the shadow (type) by the reality (antitype) gleans better results than interpreting the reality by the shadow.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Most if not all of those doing so now will never live to see that day, so it ends up being a lot of wasted energy and time on their part.

There's been a lot of events going on in the heavens though, blood moon tetrad in 2014-15 landing on Jewish holidays, the Rev 12:1-5 sign coming to pass on 9/23/17.

I don't think the planet can survive another Jubilee to be honest.

Luke 21:25-28 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Blood moon prophecy - Wikipedia

revelation 12 sign picture - Google Search

 

[Hidden In Him]

The woman in Revelation 12 which you have quoted are/is none other than God's people, The Church, His Chosen.
The male child referenced is Jesus born into the family of faith, ie those that place trust in God.
Placing Revelation 12 as the Jewish nation my friend is only valid if one interprets 'Jew' as Paul does meaning individuals with faith.
I'm persuaded that interpreting the shadow (type) by the reality (antitype) gleans better results than interpreting the reality by the shadow.

I understand, bud. We just have a difference of opinion on this one. The spiritualized interpretation of Revelation 12 (and others) was common in previous eras, but is largely being supplanted by the literalist, now that Israel has returned to her land.

There's been a lot of events going on in the heavens though, blood moon tetrad in 2014-15 landing on Jewish holidays, the Rev 12:1-5 sign coming to pass on 9/23/17.

I don't think the planet can survive another Jubilee to be honest.

Luke 21:25-28 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Blood moon prophecy - Wikipedia

revelation 12 sign picture - Google Search

Well now, the great sign in Revelation 12:1 is something John was seeing in the vision. Luke 21:25 on the other hand refers to Matthew 24:29 (they are parallel passages). I've never been sold on the blood moons as particularly great signs, but I will say that we are drawing closer certainly. I believe we are now entering the last days in some regard, but a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and I think by our standards of measuring time we still have quite a ways to go yet.

Blessings in Christ, guys, and thanks for the responses.

 

[larry2]

The woman in Revelation 12 which you have quoted are/is none other than God's people, The Church, His Chosen.
The male child referenced is Jesus born into the family of faith, ie those that place trust in God.
Placing Revelation 12 as the Jewish nation my friend is only valid if one interprets 'Jew' as Paul does meaning individuals with faith.

Dear Brother quitethinker, I like the fact you see the woman of Rev 12:1 as the family of God, but then I would have you consider the time frame of the man child’s being caught up unto God.

From Rev 4:1 the events John are shown to occur are things which must be hereafter from that point in time, which to me is still future as being the Day of the Lord when Jesus receives His own throne in Rev 4:2. The man child is the 144,000, those firstfruits unto God and the Lamb of Israel just prior to the middle of the week of tribulation to come. They are virgins according to Rev 14:4 (the five wise ones?), and they are before the throne of God instead of being on the throne.

 

[Truth]

You could say that what happened at that time prefigured what is to come. But the scope and intensity of what is in the future is totally unique.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:21).

That is a Fact, nothing like it has, and nothing like it will be Again!

 

[Helen]

But, who are The Jews?

Is it the blood of Abraham or the spirit of Abraham?

Esau was of the blood line of Abraham as was Ishmael...

The faith-line of Abraham are the Jews...
If we are going to look for the "true Jews" being the pure blood line of Abraham I would guess you'd find about 50 in the whole world.

Most of those who 'go by' the name of Jew these days ..are not 'of Abraham either blood-wise or spiritually.
Many who choose to live in Israel are no more born Jews than the singer Madonna was!! She just chose it. The waters are VERY MUDDY.

Who are the Jews????
@quietthinker and @Hidden In Him

 

[Truth]

Timelines are biblical though (1260, 1290, 1335 days). Some say the first four Feasts were already fulfilled to the day, and the last three Feasts are still future. We can't seem to get it right though .

That's a good point you made, Matt 24. However, I do believe the church will be gone prior to the abomination that causes desolation, per Rev 12:5 harpazo. The word used in Matt 24:31 is not harpazo, it's episunagó.

Watch video for further understanding.. youtube / watch?v=ICZmfGLnjuc&t=1s - Heb

I will say this. God established His own Calendar, He also established the Spring and Fall Feast, Leviticus 23. God did not establish these for no reason! What day did our Savior enter through the north Gate riding on the Donkey, why were there Throng's of People waiting for this event, and why were there Palm frons, and people laying their garment's on the Path that lead to the Temple??? Here is the best part! why did Jesus instruct the Disciples to gather at the gate on this Day! As soon as Jesus entered the Gate, His Disciples began to Shout, Hosanna in the Highest, Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!!!!! Then the Priest Demand that Jesus tells His Disciples to Shut Up and stop saying this. And Jesus replied! I WILL NOT< I WILL NOT< If the Rocks have to cry it out then the rocks will cry it out!!! Every year for at least a thousand years, on the 10th day of the month of Nissan the High Priest would go to Bethlehem, where they kept a Sheepfold to choose a lamb, without blemish for the National Passover Lamb, for the nation of Israel, and when the Priest entered the Gate the Other Priests would begin to Shout, Hosanna in the highest blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! these are called Holy Convocations, or Set apart rehearsals! Our Savior Just Fulfilled what is called Living Oracles, it is a how we, and what we do as a outward Worship to God, a Ritual! The Redeemer, enters the City at the beginning of the Feast of Redemption, and 4 days latter He becomes THE Passover Lamb, The Savior of the World!

 

[Heb 13:8]

Well now, the great sign in Revelation 12:1 is something John was seeing in the vision.

Correct, and this vision literally came to pass in the heavens on 9/23/17. This vision takes place in the heavens where the sun, moon, stars and constellations exist.

I've never been sold on the blood moons as particularly great signs, but I will say that we are drawing closer certainly.

Well, there's literal evidence that the moon turned blood red on those dates. You have to keep in mind that there were tetrad's that fell on Jewish holidays in 1948 and 1967 also, via prophetic dates for Israel. - Heb

 

[Hidden In Him]

But, who are The Jews?

Is it the blood of Abraham or the spirit of Abraham?

Esau was of the blood line of Abraham as was Ishmael...

The faith-line of Abraham are the Jews...
If we are going to look for the "true Jews" being the pure blood line of Abraham I would guess you'd find about 50 in the whole world.

Most of those who 'go by' the name of Jew these days ..are not 'of Abraham either blood-wise or spiritually.
Many who choose to live in Israel are no more born Jews than the singer Madonna was!! She just chose it. The waters are VERY MUDDY.

Who are the Jews????
@quietthinker and @Hidden In Him

For me, ByGrace, I was simply referring to "a member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism." And yes, there are many living in Israel now whose practice of Judaism is nominal at best, but you also have to take into account that the temple will be rebuilt by this time, which means there may be far greater religious fervor by the time those prophetic events unfold. Certainly any Muslims living in the land of Israel at that time will have no need to fear, for they have already converted to Islam. It will be especially those who adhere to the religion of Judaism who will be under threat of death. Traditionally they are always the targets of Antichrist figures, as took place with Antiochus Epiphanes.

As for the Madonna types, I doubt they'll be staying Jews for long. They'll probably be singing a new song real quick, LoL.