The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

[TribulationSigns]

The wrath of God was also a tribulation time for the Jews , just like the second world war was a tribulation time for the Jews. Just like calling it a time of trouble

Oh brother.

But the specified "The great tribulation" is on the church. I can't understand why you can't get this, I am not saying that the "The great tribulation" is the same as the wrath of God.

Actually, you are confused. Honestly!

 

[Marty fox]

Right. It's just silly for anyone to think that any reference to "great tribulation" has to be referring to the same thing. Look at this...

Revelation 2:18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, "These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first.
20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

This "great tribulation" clearly has nothing to do with either Matthew 24:21 or Revelation 7:9. There's no reason to think that every reference to "great tribulation" has to refer to the same great tribulation.

Exactly there are many tribulations in scripture, let the rest of the scriptures revel the true meaning of scripture

 

[Marty fox]

You blind Preterists have fundamentally misunderstood the Olivet Discourse. Christ was not merely speaking about "Judean Christians," ethnic Judea, or the destruction of an unholy physical temple in 70 A.D. His prophecy ultimately concerns His New Testament congregation at the end of the age when Satan is loosened after the testimony of Two Witnesses is finished.
What many fail to recognize is that after the Cross, God identifies His people as spiritual Jews (Romans 2:28-29), members of the heavenly Jerusalem (Galatians 4:26) which are in spiritually Judea, and living stones of God's spiritual temple (1 Peter 2:5). The true holy place is no longer a physical building in earthly Jerusalem, but the Church of Jesus Christ spread throughout the world.

The Great Tribulation is not primarily about unbelieving Jews in the first century. It is a period of testing and persecution that comes upon the elect as false prophets and false christs infiltrate the visible church, exactly as Christ warned (Matthew 24:24). God's people struggle to maintain their testimony amid widespread deception.

This is why Revelation speaks them as the two witnesses whose testimony is finished and who are overcome by the beast (Revelation 11:7). Their bodies lie in the great city, symbolizing the end of the faithful witnesses because in God's eyes, all Elect has been secured (Revelation 7:1-4). The visible church now becomes increasingly apostate. Woe upon her as "mother" is no longer able to nourish her children of the congregation with the truth.

Then comes the turning point. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29), God sends the Spirit of Life upon His elect, opening their eyes to recognize the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not (Mark 13:14). They discern the corruption that has overtaken the unfaithful church and obey God's command to come out from her. That is why they no longer experience the great tribulation within the congregation and they now will see the signs in the sun, moon and stars that point to the judgment of the unfaithful church!
This is precisely the message of Revelation 18:4: "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins." The judgment is not merely against 70AD Jerusalem but against the apostate christian church all over the world that has become corrupted. The elect are called to separate themselves from falsehood before God's final judgment falls upon the church where many professed Christians who have not yet seal by God are going to receive the mark of the beast so that they will belong Satan. They will be as lost as the rest of the world.

The Olivet Discourse, therefore, is not a prophecy exhausted in 70 A.D. It is a warning and instruction for Christ's Church as she approaches the end of the age and awaits the visible return of her King.

Why do you keep claiming that I believe things that I don't?

Of course, we now are spiritual Jerusalem and the true Holy Temple, I have repeated that more than once in this thread. It is unethical to miss represent me.

I have also said many times that "the great tribulation" is on the church

To clarity once and for all, the wrath of God which was a great tribulation but not "the great tribulation" came upon apostate Isreal. Jesus prophesied this in the Olivet Discourse with a date to it and it happened when He said that it would happen so of course that reveals the truth of the Olivet discourse.

 

[rwb]

Exactly there are many tribulations in scripture, let the rest of the scriptures revel the true meaning of scripture

How is great tribulation mentioned in Rev 2:18 any different than great tribulation Christ said His disciples must endure? Christ is writing to the church telling the church (His disciples) warning them of great tribulation that would come upon them if they don't repent for allowing false prophesy, immorality and idol worship to be in the church. Christ says "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds." IOW great tribulation that comes will be from evil deeds that Christ warns of, which is what Christ told His disciples from the mount of Olives. "For then shall be great tribulation"...In this world "ye shall have tribulation."

John 16:33 (KJV) These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Revelation 2:9-10 (KJV) I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

 

[Marty fox]

How is great tribulation mentioned in Rev 2:18 any different than great tribulation Christ said His disciples must endure? Christ is writing to the church telling the church (His disciples) warning them of great tribulation that would come upon them if they don't repent for allowing false prophesy, immorality and idol worship to be in the church. Christ says "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds." IOW great tribulation that comes will be from evil deeds that Christ warns of, which is what Christ told His disciples from the mount of Olives. "For then shall be great tribulation"...In this world "ye shall have tribulation."

John 16:33 (KJV) These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Revelation 2:9-10 (KJV) I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Because if they don't repent they will suffer they won't be apart of the church

But this is my point anyone saved or unsaved can have tribulation in their life

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You blind Preterists have fundamentally misunderstood the Olivet Discourse. Christ was not merely speaking about "Judean Christians," ethnic Judea, or the destruction of an unholy physical temple in 70 A.D. His prophecy ultimately concerns His New Testament congregation at the end of the age when Satan is loosened after the testimony of Two Witnesses is finished.
What many fail to recognize is that after the Cross, God identifies His people as spiritual Jews (Romans 2:28-29), members of the heavenly Jerusalem (Galatians 4:26) which are in spiritually Judea, and living stones of God's spiritual temple (1 Peter 2:5).

Many Christians who disagree with your particular false brand of end times doctrine understand these things, including the person you're talking to and most of the rest of the people who have been posting in this thread. So, you're preaching to the choir here about those things.

But, one thing you said here does not come from scripture. Nowhere does scripture refer to Judea in a spiritual sense. We can see references to the heavenly Jerusalem in verses like Galatians 4:26 and Hebrews 12:22, but there's never any reference to a spiritual or heavenly Judea.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How is great tribulation mentioned in Rev 2:18 any different than great tribulation Christ said His disciples must endure? Christ is writing to the church telling the church (His disciples) warning them of great tribulation that would come upon them if they don't repent for allowing false prophesy, immorality and idol worship to be in the church.

Revelation 2:18 refers specifically to people who were part of the first century church in Thyatira. There are some things within Revelation 2 and 3 that referred specifically to things that were happening in those churches and some things written to the church in general. In Revelation 2:18-23 refers to great tribulation/wrath that would come upon Jezebel and anyone in the church in Thyatira who followed after her in those days. Of course, God's wrath is upon everyone who commits sexual immorality or eats things sacrificed to idols, but Jesus was referring to something that was happening in that particular church and it serves as a warning to people in every church about what will happen if they refuse to repent.

Christ says "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds." IOW great tribulation that comes will be from evil deeds that Christ warns of, which is what Christ told His disciples from the mount of Olives. "For then shall be great tribulation"...In this world "ye shall have tribulation."

You are missing the context of each passage. They are not directly related. The Revelation 2 passage relates to the people in the first century church in Thyatira and Matthew 24:21 relates to the first century Jews.

 

[Marty fox]

I just explained the "City". I can see that you still don't get it and make false accusation that I haven't answer your question yet. Whatever. Have a good evening!

Which city? Literal of spiritual?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Which city? Literal of spiritual?

Did you notice that he referred to Judea in one of his posts as being spiritual Judea? But, nowhere in scripture is there any reference to a spiritual or heavenly Judea like there is to a heavenly Jerusalem. So, he has to resort to making things up that aren't taught in scripture in order to support his view.

 

[rwb]

Because if they don't repent they will suffer they won't be apart of the church

But this is my point anyone saved or unsaved can have tribulation in their life

Yes Marty, I agree whosoever among mankind experiences suffering and affliction it is tribulation to them. OTOH great tribulation that Christ said His disciples must endure comes from faithfulness to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ. Christ tells us all these things are the beginning of sorrows for His faithful disciples in this world as we preach the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 24:9-13 (KJV) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually, you are confused. Honestly!

Someone who has been deceived by the spirit beings Satan and his angels/demons into believing that they don't exist is trying to say that someone else is confused. That's rich. Honestly!

 

[PeterAndroz]

Yes, I disagree. We will meet Him "in the air", not on the earth. He is not going to come from heaven in the future more than once. Do you see that described in the Acts 1:9-11 passage? No. He will come again from heaven ONCE in the future and it will be in like manner as He ascended to heaven (visibly and bodily). At that time, the dead in Christ will be resurrected and changed (1 Cor 15:22-23,51-52) and gathered along with those who are alive and remain (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27) and then caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17). At that point "sudden destruction" by fire will come down upon unbelievers from which "they shall not escape", but those found worthy will escape it (1 Thess 5:2-4, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Luke 21:33-36).

Tell me how Jesus will return to the ground on the earth when He will be burning up the earth when He comes unexpected as a thief in the night?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

"""Tell me how Jesus will return to the ground on the earth when He will be burning up the earth...........
Explain Zech 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"""Tell me how Jesus will return to the ground on the earth when He will be burning up the earth...........
Explain Zech 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Please address what I said first before asking me questions. As I've already told you before, I'm not interested in having a discussion where I address your points and answer your questions, but you don't address my points and answer my questions.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why do you keep claiming that I believe things that I don't?

Of course, we now are spiritual Jerusalem and the true Holy Temple, I have repeated that more than once in this thread. It is unethical to miss represent me.

When that happens repeatedly, you have to wonder if it's on purpose or not rather than it just being a case where he's not reading what you're saying carefully or that he just lacks basic reading comprehension skills. As for me, I'm having no trouble understanding what you're saying at all. I, of course, don't agree with everything you're saying since I'm not a partial preterist, but I do understand what you're saying and can actually address what you're saying instead of misrepresenting what you're saying.

I have also said many times that "the great tribulation" is on the church

Yes, you have. Very plainly. Yet, he somehow missed all of those times you've said that? How?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Which city? Literal of spiritual?

What do you think the Lord talked about?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Please address what I said first before asking me questions. As I've already told you before, I'm not interested in having a discussion where I address your points and answer your questions, but you don't address my points and answer my questions.

Acts 1:11, Zech 14:4 Jesus STANDING
1 Thess 4:17, is Jesus STANDING ? NO, He is in the clouds.
Different event

 

[WPM]

Acts 1:11, Zech 14:4 Jesus STANDING
1 Thess 4:17, is Jesus STANDING ? NO, He is in the clouds.
Different event

Zech 14 relates to the First Advent. Have you any NT support to corroborate your opinion?

 

[WPM]

Acts 1:11, Zech 14:4 Jesus STANDING
1 Thess 4:17, is Jesus STANDING ? NO, He is in the clouds.
Different event

The Premillennialist frequently advances Acts 1:9-11 as supposed support for their assumption that Christ is returning to this earth at His Second Advent, where they say, He will set up an earthly kingdom for one thousand years. They passionately argue such and promote this passage as if it somehow reads, ‘this same Jesus, which is taken up from the earth, shall so come in like manner to the earth’. However, this is not what the passage says or is it the meaning of narrative, neither is it the focal point of the disciples’ attention. Rather, the whole emphasis of this narrative is directed toward heaven – where Christ was unquestionable bound – not this old sin-cursed earth below.

The narrative says, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

We therefore see, in this much-misinterpreted passage, that heaven and not earth, is the focus of the disciples’ attention; heaven being mentioned here four times, earth, Jerusalem and/or the Mount of Olives not once. This narrative clearly shows how the disciples were looking up towards heaven not down towards earth. That is why the angels asked the disciples, “why stand ye gazing up into heaven?” Moreover, the angels’ instruction, which followed their enquiry concerning this significant incident, is totally concentrated upon the manner that Christ went up into heaven. The angels taught: “this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

 

[WPM]

What do you think the Lord talked about?

He was talking about a literal physical city and temple. Your obsessive spiritualizing away of reality has produced heresy. You deny the reality of Satan, demons and angels. Do you believe Jesus is real?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Acts 1:11, Zech 14:4 Jesus STANDING
1 Thess 4:17, is Jesus STANDING ? NO, He is in the clouds.
Different event

I referenced more than just Acts 1:11 in my post. Also, it says nothing about Jesus standing on the earth in Acts 1:11. Please read all of it and address what I said. Or, at least tell me how you interpret the following passage...

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?