The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

[Davidpt]

You left out the pre-tribulation resurrection/rapture.

1 Corinthians 15:51 ¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


What do you apply this moment to? A time prior to great tribulation? Or a time post great tribulation?

Why this matters is simple. Obviously, this only gets fulfilled one time. And right before it is fulfilled, some of those it is being applied to are in a 'sleep' state prior to this. Which means prior to this moment in question, the ones being changed are still asleep, thus still in a disembodied state, thus haven't put on bodily immortality yet.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If one applies this to a time prior to great tribulation but applies 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 post that of great tribulation, we then have a major contradiction going on. Obviously, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, clearly means rise from a sleep state, thus rise from a death state, thus rise from a disembodied state, to that of a bodily immortal state, the same state Christ has been in for the past 2000 years.

But if 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 comes later, there is no one to fulfill rising from a sleep state to that of an immortal bodily state if the dead in Christ already did those things before great tribulation began.

Except Pretribbers don't want to be intellectually honest here and admit that it makes zero sense, in regard to those that sleep in Christ, to apply 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 before great tribulation, and then apply 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 after great tribulation.

 

[rwb]

Of course the prophets spoke of two comings in some of their prophecies though they may not have realized at the time, two comings are meant. But since the Holy Spirit was speaking through them, it would be absurd that the Holy Spirit, during when He was prophesying through them, that even He didn't know of two comings yet. As if that makes sense, that an all knowing God did not even realize during the prophets of old that the coming of Christ would involve two comings. Have you never heard of such as a thing as, hidden in the OT, revealed in the NT?

The prophets NEVER spoke of two comings! Rather they prophesy of the Messiah who was to come ONCE, and when He came, He would accomplish all that is written of Him. I agree the prophets did not think of His coming twice, so they wrote only of ONE coming because none before the cross and resurrection would be able to understand that Christ coming once would accomplish all the prophets wrote that He would when He came to earth a man, including the promise of coming again for His own. That's why now, after the cross and resurrection we, of the New Covenant understand how that ONE coming of Christ gives us assurance that He shall come a second time to claim all who belong to Him.

 

[Davidpt]

The prophets NEVER spoke of two comings! Rather they prophesy of the Messiah who was to come ONCE, and when He came, He would accomplish all that is written of Him. I agree the prophets did not think of His coming twice, so they wrote only of ONE coming because none before the cross and resurrection would be able to understand that Christ coming once would accomplish all the prophets wrote that He would when He came to earth a man, including the promise of coming again for His own. That's why now, after the cross and resurrection we, of the New Covenant understand how that ONE coming of Christ gives us assurance that He shall come a second time to claim all who belong to Him.

Why can't you simply accept that some Old Testament prophecies imply two comings, even though they never explicitly label them as such? Zechariah 14 is one example where a 2nd coming is implied without it having to call it a 2nd coming. We can know a 2nd coming is implied by comparing with the NT. The DOTL, for example, is only relevant to His 2nd coming, not His first coming. You would think all interpreters should know that, including Amils, thus should agree that the DOTL is only relevant to the 2nd coming, not the first coming.

Take Psalm 110:1:

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

In light of the New Testament, how can this prophecy be fulfilled without implying two comings?

The verse never mentions any coming at all. Yet the Messiah first had to come to earth, accomplish redemption, rise from the dead, and ascend to the Father's right hand. Then He remains there until His enemies are made His footstool. The New Testament reveals that this session at the Father's right hand is followed by His return.

So while Psalm 110:1 never explicitly says "first coming" and "second coming," its fulfillment requires both.

This is precisely the point. Your hermeneutic assumes that every Old Testament Messianic prophecy must refer exclusively to the first coming unless the text explicitly says otherwise. But Psalm 110:1 demonstrates that an Old Testament prophecy can encompass events separated by a long period of time. The prophets didn't have to distinguish the two advents in order for both to be included within the same prophecy.

And that's the part you are overlooking in regard to some OT prophecies, that it's fulfillment require both comings. Can't come a 2nd time unless one came a first time first. Now apply that to Zechariah 14. Though, a first coming is nowhere in view, the prophecy still requires that a first coming has to occur before a 2nd coming can occur. Except some interpreters deny that a 2nd coming is in view in Zechariah 14 to begin with. And some of these interpreters are some of the same ones that agree, that post Christ's birth, the NT only knows of one DOTL in the future and that it involves the 2nd coming. Then flat out deny that the 2nd coming is in view in Zechariah 14. What is that called when someone does that? A contradiction, of course.

After all, Zechariah 14 is also meaning post's Christ's birth. And that the NT reveals that there is only one DOTL post Christ's birth in the future and that it involves the 2nd coming. And that Zechariah 14 also involves the DOTL. Therefore, it is not rocket science. The DOTL meant in Zechariah 14 is the same DOTL meant in Zechariah 14. But if it isn't, then one needs to point out in the NT which DOTL is meaning Zechariah 14 when the NT only knows of one DOTL in the future, not multiple ones. Scripture interprets Scripture, IOW.

 

[CrowCross]

Great tribulation is only 3.5 years not 7 years.

The entire tribulation which includes the great tribulation is 7 years.

Maybe you are conflating the 70th week of Daniel per your view? Assuming the 70th week is still future,

There is no assuming.

the first half of it is not even involving great tribulation. Great tribulation is meaning after the middle of the week if the 70th week is still future. I tend to think the first half of the 70th week was fulfilled 2000 years ago, and that the remainder of it is future still, the remainder involving the 42 month reign of the beast, thus great tribulation.

My view looks like this---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--was fulfilled by Christ 2000 years ago--

Whoa boy, looks like we're going for a ride in this post...

followed by a gap followed by this after the gap--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate--thus fulfilled during the 42 month reign of the beast.


IOW---The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit pit(Revelation 17:8) = the following


was---meaning before the beast is in the pit. Meaning before Christ fulfilled the midst of the 70th week 2000 years ago.

I'm not a preterist. That message failed a long, long time ago.

and is not--meaning when Christ fulfilled the midst of the 70th week 2000 years ago, therefore, sending the beast to the pit at the time, thus also meaning the gap between the midst of the 70th week and the final half of the week


and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit---meaning after the gap that followed the beast being cast into the pit---meaning the final half of the 70th week, thus the 42 month reign of the beast, thus great tribulation.

Are you a Satans little season guy?

After all, in order for the beast to ascend out of the pit in the future, it requires that the beast has to be in the pit first, obviously. The midst of the 70th week, IMO, is the only logical thing that explain how and when the beast ends up in the pit.

Your logic has problems as it fails when we read Satan is put into the pit after the tribulation.

Not to be confused with satan, though. Clearly, the beast and satan are not the same entity, and Revelation 20:10, for one, undeniably proves it, in the event one argues the beast and satan are the same entity.

 

[CrowCross]

1 Corinthians 15:51 ¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


What do you apply this moment to? A time prior to great tibulation? Or a time post great tribulation?

At the rapture prior to the 7 year tribulation.

Why this matters is simple. Obviously, this only gets fulfilled one time. And right before it is fulfilled, some of those it is being applied to are in a 'sleep' state prior to this. Which means prior to this moment in question, the ones being changed are still asleep, thus still in a disembodied state, thus haven't put on bodily immortality yet.

It means they died.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This happen with 1 Cor:51

If one applies this to a time prior to great tribulation but applies 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 post that of great tribulation, we then have a major contradiction going on.

???????????

Obviously, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, clearly means rise from a sleep state, thus rise from a death state, thus rise from a disembodied state, to that of a bodily immortal state, the same state Christ has been in for the past 2000 years.

Rise from a disembodied state??? Your spirit doesn't die when you die...just your body dies.

But if 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 comes later, there is no one to fulfill rising from a sleep state to that of an immortal bodily state if the dead in Christ already did those things before great tribulation began.

Except Pretribbers don't want to be intellectually honest here and admit that it makes zero sense, in regard to those that sleep in Christ, to apply 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 before great tribulation, and then apply 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 after great tribulation.

Nice ad-hom.....If I don't see it like you then obviously I'm intellectually dishonest.

 

[Davidpt]

Your logic has problems as it fails when we read Satan is put into the pit after the tribulation.

The problem is that you don't have good reading comprehension at times. You need to work on that.

That's not my position. My position is that the beast, not satan, is the one cast into the pit before the time of great tribulation. Otherwise, how does it ascend from the pit to begin with in order to start the process of great tribulation unless it's in the pit first? I'm Premil not amil. My view is that satan is cast into the pit during the 2nd coming. And that during the 2nd coming the beast is cast into the LOF. You are conflating my view of the beast with that of satan. I'm not meaning satan, I'm meaning the beast is obviously already in the pit before great tribulation begins. satan is never in the pit before great tribulation begins.

And so what about the ad hom at the end of that other post addresed to me by you? I was a Pretribber for decades, and I was obviously not being intellectually honest about things at the time, otherwise I would not have remained a Pretribber all those years.

Not to mention, where did I ever claim you are a Preterist when there is no such thing as a Preterist that is also a Pretribber. All Pretribbers are Premils. Most Preterists are Amils, some of them maybe are Postmils. Once again, you need to work on your reading comprehension some.

 

[CrowCross]

The problem is that you don't have good reading comprehension at times. You need to work on that.

At this point I stopped reading your post.

 

[Davidpt]

At this point I stopped reading your post.

I don't care since it is the truth in this case. You are clearly not reading my posts correctly and are having me saying and meaning things I did not say nor mean. Why should I find that acceptable that someone can just say whatever they want to say about what I posted, that I said this and that I meant that when I did no such thing? Plus I'm not applying that to you universally. I'm only applying it to my case

But here is what I did post that you apparently did not read because you were apparently offended by the truth I started my post out with.

I said the following in that post that you never finished reading.

"That's not my position. My position is that the beast, not satan, is the one cast into the pit before the time of great tribulation. Otherwise, how does it ascend from the pit to begin with in order to start the process of great tribulation unless it's in the pit first? I'm Premil not amil. My view is that satan is cast into the pit during the 2nd coming. And that during the 2nd coming the beast is cast into the LOF. You are conflating my view of the beast with that of satan. I'm not meaning satan, I'm meaning the beast is obviously already in the pit before great tribulation begins. satan is never in the pit before great tribulation begins"

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL....yes, great detail that didn't answer my question about the times of Noah and Lot.

I did answer it.

Once again...how does that comment made by Jesus fit into an end of tribulation resurrection/rapture?

I already answered this. Are you a child using your parents' phone or laptop to access this site? This forum is for adults.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm comparing it to what they were doing at that time...

Here's the description you keep avoiding....Noahs time...They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage then...
Lots time....They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.

How does this fit into the end of the tribulation ?

It fits with Paul saying they will think they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath during the time leading up to the return of Christ, as Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-11. As I've already told you. Is there something you don't understand about what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5? If so, let me know, and I'm help you to understand it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're being excessively paranoid!

LOL! Says the excessively paranoid person who gets offended any time anyone disagrees with him about something! !!!!

!!!!!

When the last day of the Lord

Why do you change the text to reference "the last day of the Lord" when scripture refers to it as "the day of the Lord"?

for calling on the name of the Lord to be saved comes, then as you've clearly shown there will not be more time (a thousand years), rather there will be sudden destruction for unbelievers, and the beginning of the everlasting eternal age for all who have been born again. We find agreement on the last day of the Lord, which shall be the last of these last days.

So, why does it matter so much to you what we call the time period leading up to that? We both agree that time period can be called "the last days". Why do you care if I also call it the day of the Lord, as you do, or not?

But we disagree on the specific terminology, with you arguing the day of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell is these last days, which of course it is!

No, you argue that the day of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell is these last days, not me. I argue that they taught the same thing that Peter taught, which is that the last days refer to the time period during which the Spirit is poured out on believers who call upon the name of the Lord and during which people scoff at the promise of Christ's second coming, which is the time period leading up to the day of the Lord that will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night (Acts 2:16-21, 2 Peter 3:3-13).

But you deny these last days that began with the advent of Christ, are indeed the day/age/time of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell.

LOL. Why do you resort to misrepresenting my view? Are you doing that on purpose or are you just ignorant? I do NOT deny that! I just don't label that time period as the day of the Lord as you do. I call it the last days, which you also call it. So, stop this stupid nonsense already! You make an utter fool of yourself when you misrepresent my beliefs constantly like this.

You want us to believe the day of the Lord the prophets foretell consists only of the last day of these last days.

No, I refer to the time period that you call "the day of the Lord" as the last days just as they did and just as Peter did. They lead up to the day of the Lord, which is the day that Jesus will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night.

That makes zero sense

You make zero sense when you waste time making strawman arguments all the time! I do not claim what you say that I claim. The only difference between us in how we understand those prophecies is that you label the time period as the day of the Lord and the last days and I only label it as the last days. So what? Who cares? Goodness sakes....!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus said it that way because he, being God...knew He would return twice. In the air then physically.
Perhaps you ought to consider everything.

Now, please explain the days of Noah and Lot. How does that "happy time" scenario fit into a Rev 19 end of the tribulation scenario.

LOL! Happy time? Are you somehow unaware that people are able to feel spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath, as Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 5, even when tribulation is going on? Believers in particular have no clue about their spiritual status no matter what might be going on in the world or in their personal lives. How can you not understand something as simple as this?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm comparing it to what they were doing at that time...

Here's the description you keep avoiding....Noahs time...They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage then...
Lots time....They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.

How does this fit into the end of the tribulation ?

I'm not avoiding anything. You are just not accepting what I'm telling you about how I understand that. You are avoiding what Jesus, Peter and Paul say will happen on the day that Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, which is the same day that the rapture occurs. Why are you avoiding that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why would the prophets of old prophesy two comings of Jesus since they prophesy only of "THE day of the LORD cometh"? Nowhere do they speak of the prophesied LORD coming two times. All that the prophets foretell concerning the LORD shall be fulfilled in this age/day/time when the LORD would come! In THE day/age/time when man shall call upon the name of the Lord to be saved!

What in the world are you talking about? Jesus came long ago and He will come again in the future. That's two comings of Jesus. I think you would deny that 1 + 1 = 2 if either WPM or myself told you that. Unbelievable.

 

[CrowCross]

LOL! Happy time? Are you somehow unaware that people are able to feel spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath, as Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 5, even when tribulation is going on? Believers in particular have no clue about their spiritual status no matter what might be going on in the world or in their personal lives. How can you not understand something as simple as this?

I guess I don't have a simple mind. I wish I had the great spiritual insight that you have.

 

[rwb]

Why can't you simply accept that some Old Testament prophecies imply two comings, even though they never explicitly label them as such? Zechariah 14 is one example where a 2nd coming is implied without it having to call it a 2nd coming. We can know a 2nd coming is implied by comparing with the NT. The DOTL, for example, is only relevant to His 2nd coming, not His first coming. You would think all interpreters should know that, including Amils, thus should agree that the DOTL is only relevant to the 2nd coming, not the first coming.

Because that is not what I believe Scripture tells us! Premillennialists must have two comings to support their view of one thousand more years after Christ comes again! The erroneous doctrine goes away when we understand the Old Covenant Prophets foretell the Messiah would come, and when He would come all they foretell regarding Him will be fulfilled.

OTOH, we who live after the cross and resurrection understand the first advent of Christ would also include Christ returning the second and only time for those who look for Him.

Hebrews 9:28 (KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Take Psalm 110:1:

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

In light of the New Testament, how can this prophecy be fulfilled without implying two comings?

The verse never mentions any coming at all. Yet the Messiah first had to come to earth, accomplish redemption, rise from the dead, and ascend to the Father's right hand. Then He remains there until His enemies are made His footstool. The New Testament reveals that this session at the Father's right hand is followed by His return.

So while Psalm 110:1 never explicitly says "first coming" and "second coming," its fulfillment requires both.

This is precisely the point. Your hermeneutic assumes that every Old Testament Messianic prophecy must refer exclusively to the first coming unless the text explicitly says otherwise. But Psalm 110:1 demonstrates that an Old Testament prophecy can encompass events separated by a long period of time. The prophets didn't have to distinguish the two advents in order for both to be included within the same prophecy.

Both the first and second coming of Christ are foretold through the prophets of Old telling us ALL that shall be fulfilled through Him will be fulfilled when the promised Messiah came during this time they write is "the day of the LORD".

Through His death and resurrection when Jesus came to earth a man He already possessed ALL POWER in heaven and earth. It is only the LAST enemy that is physical death that was not put under His power and will not be destroyed in the lake of fire until the GWTJ.

Matthew 28:18-20 (KJV) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Colossians 2:15 (KJV) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Hebrews 2:14 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 2:15 (KJV) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

1 John 3:8 (KJV) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (KJV) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Revelation 20:14 (KJV) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I guess I don't have a simple mind. I wish I had the great spiritual insight that you have.

Pray about it. LOL.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because that is not what I believe Scripture tells us! Premillennialists must have two comings to support their view of one thousand more years after Christ comes again! The erroneous doctrine goes away when we understand the Old Covenant Prophets foretell the Messiah would come, and when He would come all they foretell regarding Him will be fulfilled.

OTOH, we who live after the cross and resurrection understand the first advent of Christ would also include Christ returning the second and only time for those who look for Him.

Hebrews 9:28 (KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

What are you even arguing here? First, you criticize Premillennialists that they "must have two comings" and then you proceed to show that you too believe in two comings of Christ. The two comings of Christ that post-trib premills believe in are the same two comings of Christ that amills like us believe in. I don't think they claim that Jesus comes again after the thousand years since they already have Him being on the earth during that time. So, are you arguing against the idea of Jesus coming two more times in the future, which no one is actually arguing here? Only pre-tribs would argue that. But, @Davidpt is not a pre-trib.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The problem is that you don't have good reading comprehension at times. You need to work on that.

This might be the most ironic thing ever said.

 

[rwb]

What are you even arguing here? First, you criticize Premillennialists that they "must have two comings" and then you proceed to show that you too believe in two comings of Christ. The two comings of Christ that post-trib premills believe in are the same two comings of Christ that amills like us believe in. I don't think they claim that Jesus comes again after the thousand years since they already have Him being on the earth during that time. So, are you arguing against the idea of Jesus coming two more times in the future, which no one is actually arguing here? Only pre-tribs would argue that. But, @Davidpt is not a pre-trib.

When and where have I ever denied TWO comings of Christ? What I deny is that the prophets of Old prophesy of TWO comings! Their prophesy speaks only of ONE coming when all that is written of Him is fulfilled during the period of time they call "the day of the LORD". Since I've never mentioned the doctrine of PRE=TRIB in this thread why are you bringing it into my discussions as though I have?