The corner

[Hiddenthings]

What’s interesting to me about this thread @Hiddenthings is that some of them want to be in my corner but they aren’t willing to do what it takes to be in my corner.

Most of them want me to be in their corner but I’m unwilling to do what it takes to be in (return to) their corner.

The Trinity and Jewish monotheism false dichotomy argument either blurs or obliterates the lines. In my opinion, this argument does a disservice to both.

The Trinity and Jewish monotheism true dichotomy argument insists on maintaining the lines. In my opinion, this argument does a good service to both.

So essentially, you're saying that light has no fellowship with darkness.

 

[PS95]

Thanks.

Messianic Jews fall into two groups: trinitarian (they have rejected Jewish monotheism) and unitarian (they affirm Jewish monotheism and vehemently reject trinitarianism.) The trinitarian group is much larger than the unitarian group.

I did not know this. I have only met Messianics who accept the trinity near me.

The two groups don’t get along well with one another, to put it mildly. I don’t get along well with the trinitarian group, and not particularly well with the unitarian group (they tend to reject Paul, whereas I endorse and affirm Paul.)

That's too bad that they can't find common ground. We should try to be at peace as much as it is possible with all men.
So this is the same group mentioned above? Jewish monotheist aka Messianics?
They reject Paul? Why? Because he was apostle sent to the gentiles?
Don't they know that the apostles accepted him as an apostle? What gives?
Where does that leave you, Matt?

Does that make any difference in how you would vote in the poll?

I didn't vote. I just don't know enough about what you believe, apparently. There has to be something more that causes you to vehemently reject us. Tell me where to go to read up on what you do believe?
I've read some on Uni's but it was confusing since there are Christadelphians, Unitarian Universalists, and others. I've told you there no churches like your even remotely close to me so I can't visit one. Do you have a link where I can read in detail? I don't have a problem with understanding why you believe the way you do. Who knows maybe I will reject you after all . That way you can feel better.

From what I've read so far, you are not like the Messianics that I know- they have the need to say, Yeshua even tho they speak English. That's fine, whatever- but it is definitely as if they think Jesus is not acceptable.--- the Jewish festivals seemed to be mandatory, although I am not 100% sure on that.
What bothered me was this-- they were made up of Jews and Gentiles, but it was as if the Gentiles were trying to pretend to be Jewish. It just felt unnatural- more of a nationality thing as if acting like you are Jewish makes you more holy. Gentiles were eagerly learning how to cook Jewish dishes and pronouncing them with an accent. Is this game I thought? Don't they know that we are one in Christ? We don't have to try to act Jewish for crying out loud. That's not what it's about.
It reminded me of a time many years ago, when a friend and I went to Italy. I have relatives there. My friend spoke only English but when in my family's presence she would come out with an Italian accent onto the end of her English words. I found it comical.

 

[Matthias]

So essentially, you're saying that light has no fellowship with darkness.

What do you think those who believe the Trinity and Jewish monotheism is a false dichotomy are saying?

 

[Matthias]

I did not know this. I have only met Messianics who accept the trinity near me.

That's too bad that they can't find common ground. We should try to be at peace as much as it is possible with all men.
So this is the same group mentioned above? Jewish monotheist aka Messianics?
They reject Paul? Why? Because he was apostle sent to the gentiles?
Don't they know that the apostles accepted him as an apostle? What gives?
Where does that leave you, Matt?

I didn't vote. I just don't know enough about what you believe, apparently. There has to be something more that causes you to vehemently reject us. Tell me where to go to read up on what you do believe?
I've read some on Uni's but it was confusing since there are Christadelphians, Unitarian Universalists, and others. I've told you there no churches like your even remotely close to me so I can't visit one. Do you have a link where I can read in detail? I don't have a problem with understanding why you believe the way you do. Who knows maybe I will reject you after all . That way you can feel better.

From what I've read so far, you are not like the Messianics that I know- they have the need to say, Yeshua even tho they speak English. That's fine, whatever- but it is definitely as if they think Jesus is not acceptable.--- the Jewish festivals seemed to be mandatory, although I am not 100% sure on that.
What bothered me was this-- they were made up of Jews and Gentiles, but it was as if the Gentiles were trying to pretend to be Jewish. It just felt unnatural- more of a nationality thing as if acting like you are Jewish makes you more holy. Gentiles were eagerly learning how to cook Jewish dishes and pronouncing them with an accent. Is this game I thought? Don't they know that we are one in Christ? We don't have to try to act Jewish for crying out loud. That's not what it's about.
It reminded me of a time many years ago, when a friend and I went to Italy. I have relatives there. My friend spoke only English but when in my family's presence she would come out with an Italian accent onto the end of her English words. I found it comical.

You need to put in more time with the zealous trinitarians before you spend time with me. I’m as zealous for the God of Jewish monotheism as they are for their deity.

 

[PS95]

Apparently any topic is an excuse for an anti-JW rant….what a shame that none of what this deluded person says is true….twisted half truths with a liberal splash of emotional appeal…..good grief! Do they ever stop?

A rant? No Jane. I spoke only truth and which was relevant to the conversation. Once again you call me a liar. Nothing new under the sun. Now please show me where I lied. I am always asking yet no Jw replies- they only accuse. It should not be that way.
Also since you put me on "shun" your words- a year ago and just recently flat out refused to participate even when I made you a thread on that VERY TOPIC to discuss.
Why do you feel the need to even read what I write? So your shun of me is you can read what I write and comment to others about me but never face me. OK.

Judaism was shown not to be the true faith by Jesus himself…..and like those defectors back then who adopted all manner of man-made traditions and passed them off as the true faith, (Matt 15:7-9) so Christendom has simply repeated history. Neither are doing the will of the Father, but are mirror images of one another, under the influence of “the god of this world” who has the ability to “blind the minds” of “unbelievers”. (2 Cor 4:3-4)…these are the goats who think they are sheep. (Matt 7:21-23)

Yes, once again a JW favorite verse and out of context as usual.. Lets read it together? Who is Jesus warning about there? False prophets? and wait kingdom of HEAVEN? Isn't this only meant for your "elect 144K" then?
Matt 7:15-23
15Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20So then, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

 

[PS95]

You need to put in more time with the zealous trinitarians before you spend time with me. I’m as zealous for the God of Jewish monotheism as they are for their deity.

What I asked for was for a link that explains in detail what you do believe. That's all.

 

[Matthias]

What I asked for was for a link that explains in detail what you do believe. That's all.

I know what you asked for and I know what you need.

You’re easy prey at the moment for a wolf.

I put in my time with the zealous trinitarians. My advice is setting you on the path I followed.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Disagree - won't go into this here and now

Can I at least ask you what “election” is for, and who are the ones who are described in Rev 20:6 as reigning with Christ and being priests under his headship as High Priest? Do all Christians have the “heavenly calling”? (Heb 3:1)……and in Rev 14:1-4 where there are 144,00 who are “bought from the earth” as “firstfruits”…..? What were “firstfruits” to a first century Jew?

What is the role of the “saints”? How is this “priesthood” prefigured by the Jewish priesthood? Paul spoke of “types and shadows”….can you explain them?

For me, it’s all about the big picture and where all the pieces fit. Most people have pieces that don’t fit anywhere because their programming is in the way.
I threw away all my previous programming leaned in church, and just allowed the Bible to speak for itself.
The story was amazingly simple.

If you came to realise that your religious group was wrong on some major doctrinal points, how would you go about processing that?

I have explored the beliefs of my faith in great detail because that is who I am….I don’t swallow any man’s version of things unless I do my own research and study, using the many resources available online. The doctrinal points on which many differ have more to do with conflict regarding their own belief system, rather than what they themselves have studied independently.

I love to use Christendom’s own resources like Strongs Concordance where original language words are examined and explained and to see how these words are translated in other Bible verses. Interlinear translations are also helpful in gaining a better understanding of words and especially phrasing, which differs from English.
In 50 years of deep study, I have not found a doctrine that isn’t supported by other Scripture and that is out of harmony with the Bible’s overall theme…..have we clarified things over time? Yes we have, and as truth has always been revealed in God’s due time, what we need to know is given when we need to know it.

The sacrifice of his son is the means by which God rescues the human race from the grip of sin and death introduced by Adam (Rom 5:12) by sending his son in the form of the human, Jesus who gave his life for ours, Jehovah can eventually restore his original purpose for humankind on this carefully prepared planet.

What was that purpose…..? That is the key to understanding all that has transpired since Eden.

 

[PS95]

I know what you asked for and I know what you need.

I'm beginning not to appreciate you.

You’re easy prey at the moment for a wolf.

No. You are very mistaken. No one can snatch me. Don't mistake my kindness for weakness.

I put in my time with the zealous trinitarians.

Bravo. And I have put up with abuse and pretty rude resistance from you. What does that make you? All you do is complain about us. I do not see you explaining what you do believe!! Lets hear it.
I see you posting articles from scholars& others. No one cares what they have to say, Matt. Opinions are everywhere. Where are your scriptures and what are your beliefs other than you hate the trinity and we stink, and and you are so much holier because you are a Jewish Monotheist?
You believe in one God do you? Good. So what. There is more to it than that. Demons believe the same.
You would rather spend time with the Judaizers than Christians? It must make your life difficult. Seems you have a religion all of your own?
Enough of this. I wish you all the best in your journey. Take care Matt.

 

[PS95]

Can I at least ask you what “election” is for, and who are the ones who are described in Rev 20:6 as reigning with Christ and being priests under his headship as High Priest? Do all Christians have the “heavenly calling”? (Heb 3:1)……and in Rev 14:1-4 where there are 144,00 who are “bought from the earth” as “firstfruits”…..? What were “firstfruits” to a first century Jew?

What is the role of the “saints”? How is this “priesthood” prefigured by the Jewish priesthood? Paul spoke of “types and shadows”….can you explain them?

For me, it’s all about the big picture and where all the pieces fit. Most people have pieces that don’t fit anywhere because their programming is in the way.
I threw away all my previous programming leaned in church, and just allowed the Bible to speak for itself.
The story was amazingly simple.

I have explored the beliefs of my faith in great detail because that is who I am….I don’t swallow any man’s version of things unless I do my own research and study, using the many resources available online. The doctrinal points on which many differ have more to do with conflict regarding their own belief system, rather than what they themselves have studied independently.

I love to use Christendom’s own resources like Strongs Concordance where original language words are examined and explained and to see how these words are translated in other Bible verses. Interlinear translations are also helpful in gaining a better understanding of words and especially phrasing, which differs from English.
In 50 years of deep study, I have not found a doctrine that isn’t supported by other Scripture and that is out of harmony with the Bible’s overall theme…..have we clarified things over time? Yes we have, and as truth has always been revealed in God’s due time, what we need to know is given when we need to know it.

The sacrifice of his son is the means by which God rescues the human race from the grip of sin and death introduced by Adam (Rom 5:12) by sending his son in the form of the human, Jesus who gave his life for ours, Jehovah can eventually restore his original purpose for humankind on this carefully prepared planet.

What was that purpose…..? That is the key to understanding all that has transpired since Eden.

Take it elsewhere Jane. Make your own thread. Dont divert other member's threads. It's rude.

 

[Matthias]

I'm beginning not to appreciate you.

No. You are very mistaken. No one can snatch me. Don't mistake my kindness for weakness.

Bravo. And I have put up with abuse and pretty rude resistance from you. What does that make you? All you do is complain about us. I do not see you explaining what you do believe!! Lets hear it.
I see you posting articles from scholars& others. No one cares what they have to say, Matt. Opinions are everywhere. Where are your scriptures and what are your beliefs other than you hate the trinity and we stink, and and you are so much holier because you are a Jewish Monotheist?
You believe in one God do you? Good. So what. There is more to it than that. Demons believe the same.
You would rather spend time with the Judaizers than Christians? It must make your life difficult. Seems you have a religion all of your own?
Enough of this. I wish you all the best in your journey. Take care Matt.

Run along then, but remember this - I didn’t seek you out; you sought me out.

 

[PS95]

Run along then, but remember this - I didn’t seek you out; you sought me out.

You posted a thread asking a Q on a CHRISTIAN FORUM. The very people that you despise-- are you seeking us? lol.
Your unkind replies to me appear to be such as those from a miserable soul. I'm sorry for that.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Can I at least ask you what “election” is for, and who are the ones who are described in Rev 20:6 as reigning with Christ and being priests under his headship as High Priest? Do all Christians have the “heavenly calling”? (Heb 3:1)……and in Rev 14:1-4 where there are 144,00 who are “bought from the earth” as “firstfruits”…..? What were “firstfruits” to a first century Jew?

What is the role of the “saints”? How is this “priesthood” prefigured by the Jewish priesthood? Paul spoke of “types and shadows”….can you explain them?

For me, it’s all about the big picture and where all the pieces fit. Most people have pieces that don’t fit anywhere because their programming is in the way.
I threw away all my previous programming leaned in church, and just allowed the Bible to speak for itself.
The story was amazingly simple.

I have explored the beliefs of my faith in great detail because that is who I am….I don’t swallow any man’s version of things unless I do my own research and study, using the many resources available online. The doctrinal points on which many differ have more to do with conflict regarding their own belief system, rather than what they themselves have studied independently.

I love to use Christendom’s own resources like Strongs Concordance where original language words are examined and explained and to see how these words are translated in other Bible verses. Interlinear translations are also helpful in gaining a better understanding of words and especially phrasing, which differs from English.
In 50 years of deep study, I have not found a doctrine that isn’t supported by other Scripture and that is out of harmony with the Bible’s overall theme…..have we clarified things over time? Yes we have, and as truth has always been revealed in God’s due time, what we need to know is given when we need to know it.

The sacrifice of his son is the means by which God rescues the human race from the grip of sin and death introduced by Adam (Rom 5:12) by sending his son in the form of the human, Jesus who gave his life for ours, Jehovah can eventually restore his original purpose for humankind on this carefully prepared planet.

What was that purpose…..? That is the key to understanding all that has transpired since Eden.

Rather than take this thread off course, if you have any questions or doubts about the identity of the 144,000, I’d be more than willing to discuss it with you. Just be prepared: the direction that conversation might take may challenge your assumptions. I also want to mention that I responded to other posts, especially the one concerning the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven to earth, but I didn’t receive a reply from you. Additionally, I provided clear and concise passages about Christ and His apostles establishing thrones on earth, yet that too went unanswered. If you’re interested in exploring the topic of the New Jerusalem and its governance, I’m more than willing to engage in that discussion. However, please understand that if you don’t fully commit to the conversation, I may interpret that as a lack of sincerity on your part. I think that's fair.

 

[Matthias]

You posted a thread asking a Q on a CHRISTIAN FORUM. The very people that you despise-- are you seeking us? lol.
Your unkind replies to me appear to be such as those from a miserable soul. I'm sorry for that.

***

@talons do you think I despise Christians?

 

[Hiddenthings]

You posted a thread asking a Q on a CHRISTIAN FORUM. The very people that you despise-- are you seeking us? lol.
Your unkind replies to me appear to be such as those from a miserable soul. I'm sorry for that.

PS Is this how you typically respond to everyone who disagrees with you? You risk losing credibility quickly, much like Zao, who puts someone on ignore after just their second reply. It just looks weak and beggarly.

 

[PS95]

PS Is this how you typically respond to everyone who disagrees with you? You risk losing credibility quickly, much like Zao, who puts someone on ignore after just their second reply. It just looks weak and beggarly.

ehhh no. You again, being cute again. The word dazzling Judaizer. No thanks.

 

[Hiddenthings]

ehhh no. You again, being cute again. The word dazzling Judaizer. No thanks.

Retreat back to your unknowable mysteries and keep tickling each other’s ears?

 

[PS95]

Retreat back to your unknowable mysteries and keep tickling each other’s ears?

Whatever that means to you I do not want to discuss with someone who acts like you do. What must I say to make you see that I have no interest in your opinions? How's this?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Whatever that means to you I do not want to discuss with someone who acts like you do. What must I say to make you see that I have no interest in your opinions? How's this?

Do you believe the lie?

I’ve been very polite throughout our exchange, yet for some reason, you judged my motives by calling me a troll, “cute,” and “dazzling.” In the end, you were unable to defend your position and resorted to attacking me personally rather than addressing the well supported argument. Same happened with Zao but to your credit you lasted a lot longer.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Do you believe there is a degree of truth required to be responsible for salvation? Do you in your body hold key beliefs which you would say are critical for salvation? For instance, within your body would you commonly speak as though only JW's will be saved?

I wanted to address this separately because God has always had his “people”, chosen to represent him in a world ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-7)

In pre-Israelite times it was the Patriarchs who guided their families in the way of truth and in the worship of the only true God…..when Jacob brought his family to Egypt in search of food in a great famine, little did they know that God had sent Joseph there way ahead of them to ensure that Messiah’s lineage was preserved. Hundreds of years passed and Israel were now enslaved by subsequent Pharaohs and life was hard for them. God heard their cries for help and sent Moses to liberate them.

In Egypt their numbers had swelled into what was now a great nation as God told Abraham they would be.
The time had come to release them and bring them into the Promised Land. They were waylaid however by disobedience and were sentenced to wandering in the wilderness for 40 years, yet God provided for them in miraculous ways, but they were led by God’s appointed representative and they were instructed to build a Tabernacle and to form a priesthood with an appointed High Priest…..they soon experienced God’s displeasure if they questioned Moses’ authority.

Throughout their sad and sorry history God’s chosen people continually let him down, bringing on themselves the punishments that were due for their errors and their failure to obey his laws.

Finally, it was time for their Messiah to make his appearance when Jesus presented himself at the Jordan River to be baptized by John. John’s hesitation was justified because he knew who Jesus was and that he had no sins over which to repent…..but Jesus talked him into it saying it was OK just this one time, to carry out the will of God. This was “the prophet like Moses”, who was to come…..again a man representing God and he chose 12 apostles to assist him in the work that they would carry on in his absence.
He told them that he was going to prepare a place for them, in his Father’s house.….

John 14:2-3…
“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, you may be also.” (NASB)
Where was he going? And when he returned, where was he taking them?

John 8:13-18…NASB…
“So the Pharisees said to Him, “You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true.” Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone. But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone , but I and the Father who sent Me. Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true. I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me.”

Where did he come from? And where was he going? In God’s law the testimony of two witnesses was necessary to confirm a matter….both Jesus and the Father testified about who he was…..proving that they are two separate persons.

In the congregations there were those appointed to “take the lead” and the flock were told to obey their direction. (Heb 13:17) So God has always had his people, who had men appointed to shepherd them.

Do you think that if God has always dealt with his human servants in this way, that he will change his way of guiding them in the future?