If I had to vote between those two, I'd say "by faith." However, all are loaded terms. I don't necessarily think "faith" means what the Christians "of faith" think it means, nor am I confident any of us fully grasps what "saved" means. Those are the sorts of things "wisdom" Christians worry about and "faith" Christians don't. I tend to think the quest for wisdom is what this life is about, even if it isn't essential to faith or salvation (whatever "salvation" means!).
The Crippling Effects of Christian Dogma - Mindless Parroting of Apologetics
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Philip James
Well-Known Member
All wisdom comes from the LORD and with him it remains forever.
The sand of the seashore, the drops of rain, the days of eternity: who can number these?
Heaven's height, earth's breadth, the depths of the abyss: who can explore these?
Before all things else wisdom was created; and prudent understanding, from eternity.
To whom has wisdom's root been revealed? Who knows her subtleties?
There is but one, wise and truly awe-inspiring, seated upon his throne:
It is the LORD; he created her, has seen her and taken note of her.
He has poured her forth upon all his works, upon every living thing according to his bounty; he has lavished her upon his friends.
Sirach 1:1-8
Christ is risen! Alleluia!
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Thank you brother,
It's no wonder so may say "boring" when being asked to come to services with you. What a loss, all those wonderful things that can be taught but hardly, if ever learn about. Too many don't want to get into the scriptures for themselves through prayer for guidance.
The churches are starving the congregants!
Perhaps the "saved" aspect only comes into play with the "by faith" threat of Eternal Conscious Torment?
Fear-based religion enforced (reinforced?) by the spiritual extortion of "believe or burn".
On a previous forum poll, I was shocked to learn that the majority of poll votes
indicated that without an after life, they would not follow Jesus. Stunning. ???
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I think all species of Christians would agree that God is the ultimate repository and source of all wisdom. There was an atheist on another forum whose favorite theme was "Where did God get his knowledge? How would God know how to create a universe - huh, huh?" We had to explain that by definition God is the Source. He is Wisdom and Knowledge itself. Otherwise, you end up with turtles all the way down, as the saying goes.
The distinction Origen was making was between (1) Christians who believe all the wisdom and knowledge we need is found in a bare-bones, literalist understanding of the apostolic message - we aren't meant to understand more, and to attempt to understand more is somehow irreligious, and (2) Christians who believe the apostolic message is the starting place but faith is richer and deeper when one confronts and wrestles with the deeper questions and mysteries that the apostolic message raises.
That answers my earlier question.
"Are we saved by faith, or saved by wisdom?"
The Christianity "of faith" incorporates the Christianity "of wisdom".
A "starting place" as you wrote above.
Interesting that neither one provides all the answers.
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Hi Nancy..we know God is Agape Love.
Agape is the term that defines God's immeasurable, incomparable love for humankind
Hasn’t his Agape love got to manifest itself in our spirit....isn’t that Gods job via his Spirit, by softening our heart to receive more of his Love into our hearts?
It’s ok reading his written word....his Living word needs to penetrate our heart doesn’t it?
Just my thoughts, Nancy...
I remember falling in love with God The evening I was Born Again.Gods Spirit is Love......by getting to know him in my heart, and reading his written word, my love is very much deeper ...God was my very first true love....I’ve never been in love with my 2 husbands.....just my testimony and belief.
Gods Spirit is Love and my spirit fell in love with his...when Spirit gives birth to spirit..
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I remember sitting next to my small group leader from church as he shook his head trying to understand DECONSTRUCTION.
So badly I wanted to turn to him and say, "I'm deconstructing." - LOL
He wasn't ready for that. I actually love the guy. Maybe someday I will be able to discuss it with him.
Amazingly, I ask deconstructing questions in the small group he is leading. He has no clue.
DECONSTRUCTION is about re-evaluating our religious upbringing.
Long before this term emerged, Catholics were converting to Protestantism, and vice versa.
In fact, a person coming to Christ in this life deconstructs from their previous life.
DECONSTRUCTION is not the enemy, except to those who uphold tribalism loyalties.
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We've all heard the vacuous mantra: "God said it, I believe it, that settles it."
What does this communicate parenthetically?
"It doesn't need to make sense, I just need to accept it." ??? (with a shrug?)
Do we really need to check our brain at the door when we go to church?
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Seems too many make an idol of their personal interpretation of the Bible.
Claiming theirs is the only truth and that others are "of the devil" because their view differs.
What's wrong with this picture? Misplaced allegiance. Religious fiefdoms.
Building walls, instead of bridges.
- What is the purpose of the Bible?
- Should the Bible be used to cause division?
- Where is your allegiance ultimately?
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Be sure to get a claim check if you do! You don't want to get Billy Bob's brain by mistake.
Just to be clear, I do not seek Christian doctrinal unity. Defined as EVERYONE surrendering to a predetermined set of beliefs.
I believe that unity comes when we accept each other no matter our differences.
That we seek to understand each other instead of rejecting those whose Christian doctrine may differ.
Which presents its own set of challenges, of course. But that's another topic. (I hope) - LOL
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You are starting to quote and answer your own posts at an alarming rate. I thought I owned the franchise on quoting myself.
I think that is why we talk to ourselves...You are starting to quote and answer your own posts at an alarming rate. I thought I owned the franchise on quoting myself.
We can't find anyone else intelligent enough to talk to.
But frankly, all those links I posted in the OP have a purpose for this thread.
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I don't want a brain transplant, I want a body transplant - maybe Tiger Woods, circa 2000.
I'll take that chance. Instead of potty-mouth Tiger being bleeped on TV forty times a round, he'd be saying "Thank you, Jesus!" and "Lord help me!" and "Can I get an amen?" and maybe "Woe unto me for I have shanked the ball, ye who have ears to hear."
I really need to cut down on the Guinness Stout.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
That brain club gets me into more trouble than any other club in the bag.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
How about, "May Almighty God dry that ball out in the fires of Gehenna!"?
(That is a Christian paraphrase of what a hot mic caught Tiger saying after he pulled his tee shot on Pebble Beach's scenic 18th hole into Carmel Bay. The producer wasn't quick enough on the draw to edit that out of the live telecast.)