The Crippling Effects of Christian Dogma - Mindless Parroting of Apologetics

[St. SteVen]

The tyranny of doctrinal unity - "Join or die."

- Do you have the right to allow the Holy Spirit to minister to you personally?
- Does God only speak to professional clergy?
- Are laity not to be trusted with biblical interpretation?

- Can there be more than one interpretation of a scripture?
- Would only one of those interpretations be right?
- Thus making all others false?
- How do we determine which is right?
- Might God use a scripture to speak differently to different readers?

- Is it tyranny for a religious institution to dictate interpretation?
- Do you have the freedom to disagree?
- What happens if you disagree?

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[St. SteVen]

The (potential) Treachery of Doctrine > My way, or the highway >

Got it all figured out?

- You read the Bible cover-to-cover. Good for you. Kudos.
- You read up on doctrine and apologetics. Good.
- You arrived at a position on nearly any biblical topic, or doctrine. Check.
- Now you are ready to kick some butt. Say what?

What's wrong with this picture?
Is this why we read the Bible and study?
Do we measure maturity by personal KNOWLEDGE, or by personal TRANSFORMATION ?

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[simplefaith1]

What is the cure to this crippling malady? Do we need to pray for spiritual healing for our comrades?
When will they wake up and realize we are ONE body under the headship of Christ?


/ cc: @Chadrho @Lambano @quietthinker @RedFan @O'Darby @Hillsage @Adrift @Brakelite @BarneyFife

When people cease making a god out of ''head theology'' you may well find the cure is taking place. By and large in the churches themselves they are far more flexible than on websites such as these. And the average pew sitter has studied little compared to the average internet debater.

 

[Mr E]

Got it all figured out?

- You read the Bible cover-to-cover. Good for you. Kudos.
- You read up on doctrine and apologetics. Good.
- You arrived at a position on nearly any biblical topic, or doctrine. Check.
- Now you are ready to kick some butt. Say what?

What's wrong with this picture?
Is this why we read the Bible and study?
Do we measure maturity by personal KNOWLEDGE, or by personal TRANSFORMATION ?

/

Knowledge is the realization that you know things.

Wisdom is understanding that there are a lot of things you don't know.

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy..we know God is Agape Love.

Agape is the term that defines God's immeasurable, incomparable love for humankind

Hasn’t his Agape love got to manifest itself in our spirit....isn’t that Gods job via his Spirit, by softening our heart to receive more of his Love into our hearts?

It’s ok reading his written word....his Living word needs to penetrate our heart doesn’t it?

Just my thoughts, Nancy...

Hello Ritajanice,
I of course do see God's love as agape, yet even more so as His love is also shown through His mercies, that are "new everyday" And through His longsuffering, provisions, compassion, on and on...
To my knowledge, "agape" means sacrificial love. And boy did God show that agape love through "sacrificing" His only begotten son, amen!

 

[Ritajanice]

Hello Ritajanice,
I of course do see God's love as agape, yet even more so as His love is also shown through His mercies, that are "new everyday" And through His longsuffering, provisions, compassion, on and on...
To my knowledge, "agape" means sacrificial love. And boy did God show that agape love through "sacrificing" His only begotten son, amen!

Yes, he did show his his Love through the sacrificial death of his Son....even more so “ Knowing “ his Love in your spirit, no matter how much I was told Jesus died on that cross....I could never believe or understand that from my own human understanding.

I only fully understood Jesus death, when, Spirit gives birth to spirit, /Born Again/ ..then I had Gods Spirit witnessing his truth to my heart....I mourned the death of Jesus for a long time after I became Born Again.....as his death was revealed to my spirit via Gods Spirit......blew my mind , still does to know that God exists and is Alive in Spirit...xx

I couldn’t have done that , without the witness of Gods Spirit, who has taken up permanent residence in my heart / spirit...when my spirit was Born Of The Spirit....


God is Alive....he’s Alive in Spirit,xx..my testimony and belief.

 

[St. SteVen]

His love is also shown through His mercies, that are "new everyday"

What a great emoticon to place there! - LOL
I love it.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

The Bliss of Religious Homeostasis - Don't Rock the Boat

There is a stability, whether real or imagined, that comes
with alignment to religious beliefs. And it doesn't seem to matter
what religion, or what sector of Christianity.

Full acceptance of what you are taught brings closure
to the "search" for truth. A sense of arriving safely.
You found it, and feel that you belong.

And if one wants to maintain this homeostasis,
best not to rock the boat. Don't ask questions, just keep
quiet and go with the flow, and everything will be fine.

However, if you do have questions and are not given
answers that satisfy your need, this can cause some friction.
Others in the tribe may prefer that you accept what you
have been given and don't make waves.

If you continue to press for satisfaction, the tribe may
decide that you no longer belong. Or at least they will begin
to distance themselves. Which leads to alienation
and a loss of your original homeostasis.

Questions to discuss:
1) What keeps us locked in homeostasis?
2) Should you be allowed to question the status quo?
3) Do feelings of alienation mean you are in the wrong?
4) At what point should you be put out of the tribe?
5) At what point should you decide to leave?

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[amigo de christo]

I think it will never happen brother. The "church" as a whole does NOT practice AGAPE love to one another, we have ton of modern day Pharisees who will never listen, or dig deeply, or study to show themselves approved...IF it does not concern themselves.


I've been 4 times in the last couple months visited one church, 3 times another and will be visiting for the first time, a small church near me on Sunday and the only reason for that is that they offer a lot of outreach opportunities, and that is what is really needed. It would be so nice to one day find a church that is off the milk once and for all and serve the meat of the word...hard pressed to find anything like that now a days.

And what is agape love . what is TRUE CHARITY .
for i too see many churches that have not CHARITY . even though they can give food and goods to the poor .
For the charity and love they have seemeth to rejoice in certain inquites
and seemeth to offer up the idea that other religoins , athiest and etc love God and know GOD
Rather odd . cause the last time i checked charity , that is love , REJOICES IN TRUTH . and lies are not truth
a broad path of unbelief IS NOT TRUTH and cannot save them .
and JESUS is not minstir of ANY SIN no matter if the world or church tries to call that sin as love .
YEAH we got problems all right .
another gospel under guise of another love is destroying many from within . offering up a false hope
that will not save one single soul . AND THE LOVE OF GOD WOULD NOT DO THAT .
But satan would . BINGO .

 

[amigo de christo]

Hello Ritajanice,
I of course do see God's love as agape, yet even more so as His love is also shown through His mercies, that are "new everyday" And through His longsuffering, provisions, compassion, on and on...
To my knowledge, "agape" means sacrificial love. And boy did God show that agape love through "sacrificing" His only begotten son, amen!

FOR GOD so loved , LOVED the world that HE DID SEND THE SON
so that all who do BELEIVE would not perish but have everlasting life .
SO WHY am i seeing another version of so called love trying to OMIT THE BELIEVE PART .
ONLY satan would do that sister cause HE LOVETH NOT and cometh ONLY TO KILL TO DESTROY and etc .
NOW JESUS CAME SO WE COULD HAVE LIFE . and JESUS is not a minstir of any sin
YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS . FOR IF YOU BELIEVE NOT , that says BELIEVE NOT , that I AM HE you WILL , SHALL , DIE IN YOUR SINS .
Every word of JESUS IS TRUTH and IS OF GOD . GOD TESTIED OF JESUS CHRIST
the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY TESTIFIES OF JESUS CHRIST . but many prophesy of another love of a lie and NOT OF JESUS CHRIST .
this is not gonna bode well for any who partook of this lie either .

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes, he did show his his Love through the sacrificial death of his Son....even more so “ Knowing “ his Love in your spirit, no matter how much I was told Jesus died on that cross....I could never believe or understand that from my own human understanding.

I only fully understood Jesus death, when, Spirit gives birth to spirit, /Born Again/ ..then I had Gods Spirit witnessing his truth to my heart....I mourned the death of Jesus for a long time after I became Born Again.....as his death was revealed to my spirit via Gods Spirit......blew my mind , still does to know that God exists and is Alive in Spirit...xx

I couldn’t have done that , without the witness of Gods Spirit, who has taken up permanent residence in my heart / spirit...when my spirit was Born Of The Spirit....


God is Alive....he’s Alive in Spirit,xx..my testimony and belief.

And WHO , WHO , WHO does the SPIRIT TESTIFY OF ........................JESUS THE CHRIST .
the born again would KNOW THAT .
what the SPIRIT would not testify of is another love that makes the DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST OBSOLETE
and unecessary . BUT SATAN WOULD and the FLESH would buy that lie too .
BUT THOSE TRULY BORN OF THE SPIRIT , WONT . GOD draws us to JESUS CHRIST
TO JESUS CHRIST . not some idea it dont matter what one believes as long as they did good . NOPE
only satan would do that . lambs dont buy it . FOR GOD HAS GIVEN THEM THE SPIRIT .
Now raise them hands and let the LORD be praised

 

[amigo de christo]

GOD is TRUTH , HIS WORD IS TRUTH , HIS SPIRIT IS TRUTH .
Those born of the SPIRIT would know this .
what is TRUTH pilate asked .
The born again know TRUTH . That which is born of the flesh is flesh
but that which is born of the SPIRIT is Spirit . and the SPIRIT cannot lie but IS TRUTH
GOD cannot lie but is TRUTH as is HIS EVERY WORD .
and HIS WORD did become flesh . GOD testified of JESUS CHRIST
i suggest we do the same .

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes, he did show his his Love through the sacrificial death of his Son....even more so “ Knowing “ his Love in your spirit, no matter how much I was told Jesus died on that cross....I could never believe or understand that from my own human understanding.

I only fully understood Jesus death, when, Spirit gives birth to spirit, /Born Again/ ..then I had Gods Spirit witnessing his truth to my heart....I mourned the death of Jesus for a long time after I became Born Again.....as his death was revealed to my spirit via Gods Spirit......blew my mind , still does to know that God exists and is Alive in Spirit...xx

I couldn’t have done that , without the witness of Gods Spirit, who has taken up permanent residence in my heart / spirit...when my spirit was Born Of The Spirit....


God is Alive....he’s Alive in Spirit,xx..my testimony and belief.

what is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY . THE TESTIMONY OF , OF JESUS CHRIST .
yet many seem to be testifying and prophesying of a lie that cannot save . That is NOT GOOD .
The born again TESTIFY OF JESUS CHRIST , the DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST
His teachings they embrace and love . For the LOVE of GOD is shed BY THE HOLYGHOST upon their hearts .
And the LOVE OF GOD
Charity , REJOICES IN TRUTH , not lies and not inquity, BUT IN TRUTH . Now raise those hands and let the LORD be praised .

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes, he did show his his Love through the sacrificial death of his Son....even more so “ Knowing “ his Love in your spirit, no matter how much I was told Jesus died on that cross....I could never believe or understand that from my own human understanding.

I only fully understood Jesus death, when, Spirit gives birth to spirit, /Born Again/ ..then I had Gods Spirit witnessing his truth to my heart....I mourned the death of Jesus for a long time after I became Born Again.....as his death was revealed to my spirit via Gods Spirit......blew my mind , still does to know that God exists and is Alive in Spirit...xx

I couldn’t have done that , without the witness of Gods Spirit, who has taken up permanent residence in my heart / spirit...when my spirit was Born Of The Spirit....


God is Alive....he’s Alive in Spirit,xx..my testimony and belief.

WHO is a LIAR .
HE who DENIES JESUS IS THE CHRIST , in fact HE IS ANTI CHRIST .
yeah i do suggest folks TEST the spirits indeed .

 

[Runningman]

Any questions? - LOL

But seriously, I see this problem all too frequently on the forum. Parroting mindless dogma.
And claiming it was what God says, when the poster knows full well that it is a matter of their OWN personal opinion. (sigh)

What is the cure to this crippling malady? Do we need to pray for spiritual healing for our comrades?
When will they wake up and realize we are ONE body under the headship of Christ?

It seems to be a matter of people trying to make God bow down to their credal idols.

 

[Spyder]

I have discovered that the churches where I have attended no longer satisfy my desire to examine scripture and grow. The only permitted scripture food in those churches is milk. Any other diet is restricted. As such, any questions regarding the doctrines given in the Statement of Faith is prohibited. In that arena, there is no room for growth. Its like growing your vegetables but refusing to use water and fertilizer for fear the seed with sprout.

Scripture teaches that we have no need that anyone teach us, because God will. (Isn't it interesting, then, when some claim that this means we don't need to read and study?) Scripture also declares that we are to be in community with other Christians.

There are many interpretations of scripture, but only one truth. We are to seek it till God gives us the conviction to act upon it. Having battled all this for years, I had to let myself question myself on the things I thought I knew. That is much more difficult than it sounds. When I received the conviction, I didn't like it. I asked Yahweh to take it away from me, because I knew it meant that I would no longer be acceptable to serve in the local church. However, God did not take it back - it remains.

If we are not willing to hear other's understandings, we will never question our own. If we won't question our own, we may miss what God intends for us to learn. Yahweh does not make it easy, He wants us to work for growth.

 

[amigo de christo]

Who is a liar . He who denies JESUS is the CHRIST , he is anti christ .
and in the same letter we later read this as well ,
He who believes not the testimony GOD gave of HIS SON
MAKETH , aka IS CALLING GOD A LIAR . that is your liar , that is your anti christ .
and every other religoin DOES THAT as does an atheiest .
SO satan cometh up with another version of love that does this and yet makes it seem so loving and so many now buy it .
But i have come , and that by grace , TO POINT ONLY TO JESUS CHRIST as the ONLY NAME and abolustely only
way TO GOD . for there really truly is no other name given under heaven whereby WE MAY BE SAVED .
Now , lift those hands and praise and rejoice in the glorious LORD .

 

[St. SteVen]

I have discovered that the churches where I have attended no longer satisfy my desire to examine scripture and grow. The only permitted scripture food in those churches is milk. Any other diet is restricted. As such, any questions regarding the doctrines given in the Statement of Faith is prohibited. In that arena, there is no room for growth. Its like growing your vegetables but refusing to use water and fertilizer for fear the seed with sprout.

Scripture teaches that we have no need that anyone teach us, because God will. (Isn't it interesting, then, when some claim that this means we don't need to read and study?) Scripture also declares that we are to be in community with other Christians.

There are many interpretations of scripture, but only one truth. We are to seek it till God gives us the conviction to act upon it. Having battled all this for years, I had to let myself question myself on the things I thought I knew. That is much more difficult than it sounds. When I received the conviction, I didn't like it. I asked Yahweh to take it away from me, because I knew it meant that I would no longer be acceptable to serve in the local church. However, God did not take it back - it remains.

If we are not willing to hear other's understandings, we will never question our own. If we won't question our own, we may miss what God intends for us to learn. Yahweh does not make it easy, He wants us to work for growth.

AMEN to that!
Thanks for joining us.

For some reason I was reminded of the disagreement that sent
Paul and Barnabas in different directions.
Seems God used both parties despite their disagreements.

Acts 15:36-40 NIV
Some time later Paul said to Barnabas,
“Let us go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we
preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing.”
37 Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them,
38 but Paul did not think it wise to take him,
because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and
had not continued with them in the work.
39 They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company.
Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus,
40 but Paul chose Silas and left,
commended by the believers to the grace of the Lord.

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[JohnDB]

Source:
- God

Resources:
- The Bible
- Commentaries
- Preachers/teachers
- Other believers
- Unbelievers (listen)

Other resource ideas?

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OK...
Preachers, Teachers, other believers, and commentaries are not a resource. They are people.

The Holy Spirit and Scriptures are the ONLY resource.

What is required is diligence in Hermeneutics.

That means very specific resources (usually not religious) to determine what was said and why it was said in the way it was said....IOW a completely objective understanding of what the scriptures are saying.

Every time morality wanes it's because people flat out do NOT know what the scriptures say. They are relying upon someone else to do the work for them. Meanwhile they get a puffed up head about themselves (because the teacher wants to keep his position as a teacher) and gain no real holiness.

So....
As a result my wife and I are creating a curriculum to teach hermeneutics. Like how to actually read scriptures in context. How to use study bibles. How and when to apply other bits of information (sciences like history, anthropology, geography, topography, and etc) and how to apply the literary arts and when.

Then on top of this....how to vet resources....which ones are reliable and why.

There are several types of commentaries. Most are exegetical. (What the author thinks) Very very few are expositional and anthropological in nature (which are the best AND usually are expensive)

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic to explore.

Where did the Bible come from? - Shot out of a canon

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