The Cross And Moses' Bronze Serpent

[Webers_Home]

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● John 3:5 . . Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to you; no one can enter
the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

It is commonly assumed that the water Christ spoke of in John 3:5 refers to
the ritual of Christian baptism. There's no excuse for an error of that
magnitude seeing as how the Lord explained the nature of the water to a
woman of Samaria in the very next chapter.

It turns out the water isn't for washing, rather, it is specifically for drinking.

● John 4:10 . . Jesus answered her: If you knew the gift of God and who it is
that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have
given you living water.

The living water that Jesus spoke of isn't natural H2O, rather, it's a
supernatural element that gives people eternal life.

● John 4:11-14 . ."Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and
the well is deep. Where can you get this living water?" Jesus answered,
"Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the
water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become
in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Bottom line: Eternal life is an essential prerequisite to passage into the
kingdom of God; no exceptions; not even for infants and/or Old Testament
personages because Jesus said "no one" can enter the kingdom without it.

How would an interested party go about obtaining the living water about
which the Lord spoke? Well; first off, it's necessary to know something about
the gift of God and who it is that asked that lady for a drink

● John 3:14-16 . . Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must
the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have
eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only son, so that
everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

The incident to which Christ referred is located at Num 21:5-9.

Long story short: Yhvh's people became sick and tired of living in the desert
and eating manna all the time at every meal. But instead of courteously, and
diplomatically, petitioning their divine benefactor for tastier food and better
accommodations, they became hostile and confrontational.

In response to their insolence; Yhvh sent a swarm of deadly poisonous3
reptiles among them; which began striking people; and every strike was3
100% fatal, no exceptions. In no time at all, much people of Israel died.
Then those not yet dead got nervous and appealed to Moses for help. In
reply; the Lord instructed Moses to construct a model of the beasts and hoist
it up on a pole in plain view so that everyone dying from venom could look
to it for immunity.

Now the key issue here is that the model was the only God-given remedy for
the people's terminal condition-- not purity, not sacrifices and offerings, not
tithing, not church attendance, not missionary work, not confession, not holy
days of obligation, not the Sabbath, not charity, not scapulars, not self
denial, not self control, not good deeds, not good behavior, not piety, not
Bible study and Sunday school, not catechism or yeshiva, not one's religion
of choice, not suffering, not sellf denial and/or self control, not the so-called
golden rule, not vows of poverty and/or chastity, not the Ten
Commandments, not the Eucharist; no, none of that: not even prayers. The
model was it; viz: it was all or nothing at all-- there was no other option.
Whoever failed to look to that model for immunity died: no exceptions.

In other words then: Christ's sacrifice of himself to satisfy justice for the sins
of the world is the only God-given option for protection from the second
death depicted at Rev 20:11-15. The default is terminal; no exceptions.
People relying upon any way other than putting all their trust in Christ's
crucifixion, are dead men walking.

● John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him will not be condemned; but whoever
does not believe has already been condemned.

Supposing someone is interested in taking Christ at his word? What to do
about it? Well; all that they have to do is simply speak up; like this:

"God; I am a sinner. I would like to take advantage of your son's death."

That prayer need not be public. It can be spoken in the privacy of one's own
bedroom or even in a restroom where they work.

There's only one catch to that prayer. The speaker has to be convinced in
their own mind that God is really out there or they will be speaking into the
air and get no results.

● Heb 11:6 . .Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for anyone who
approaches God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who
seek Him.

How is it that I am so confident that God will honor the prayer I
recommended? Well; again, I'm taking Christ at his word and acting on faith.

● John 3:17 . . For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the
world, but that the world might be saved through him.

● John 6:37 . . Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I
will not reject anyone who comes to me, because I came down from heaven
not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.

. . . And this is the will of the one who sent me: that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me, but that I should raise it the last day. For this
is the will of my Father: that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him
may have eternal life, and I shall raise him the last day.

/

 

[Mungo]

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● John 3:5 . . Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to you; no one can enter
the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

It is commonly assumed that the water Christ spoke of in John 3:5 refers to
the ritual of Christian baptism. There's no excuse for an error of that
magnitude seeing as how the Lord explained the nature of the water to a
woman of Samaria in the very next chapter.

It turns out the water isn't for washing, rather, it is specifically for drinking.

● John 4:10 . . Jesus answered her: If you knew the gift of God and who it is
that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have
given you living water.

The living water that Jesus spoke of isn't natural H2O, rather, it's a
supernatural element that gives people eternal life.

● John 4:11-14 . ."Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and
the well is deep. Where can you get this living water?" Jesus answered,
"Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the
water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become
in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Hold it right here.

Three things wrong so far.

1. With the woman at the well Jesus specifically uses the term "living water". So yes he is not referring to H2O, but to the Holy Spirit. But that is no reason to assume that every time Jesus mentions water he actually means the Holy Spirit. No reason at all.

2. Given your false assumption, when Jesus speaks to Nicodemus, he would be saying "no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of Spirit and Spirit" - obvious nonsense.

3. Immediately after the exchange with Nicodemus Jesus goes and baptises in the river Jordan - real H2O. He does not introduce the metaphor of living water until later.

When Jesus says "no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit" he means just that. reborn/ renewed by means of water (H2O) and the Holy Spirit, just as Paul says in Ti 3:5
"he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit".
You see - water (H2O) and Spirit.

 

[epostle1]

Deut. 4:16 - in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn't yet reveal himself visibly "in the form of any figure."

Deut. 4:17-19 - hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.

Exodus 3:2-3; Dan 7:9; Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Acts 2:3- later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).

Deut. 5:8 - God's commandment "thou shall not make a graven image" is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

Num. 21:8-9 - God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 - Solomon's temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.

2 Kings 18:4 - it was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God's wrath, and the king destroyed it. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals exclusively with the false worship of those images.

1 Chron. 28:18-19 - David gives Solomon the plan for the altar made of refined gold with a golden cherubim images. These images were used in the Jews' most solemn place of worship.

2 Chron. 3:7-14 - the house was lined with gold with elaborate cherubim carved in wood and overlaid with gold.

Ezek. 41:15 - Ezekiel describes graven images in the temple consisting of carved likenesses of cherubim. These are similar to the images of the angels and saints in many Catholic churches.

Col. 1:15 - the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the "image" (Greek "eikon") of the invisible God.

 

[Webers_Home]

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The living water that Jesus spoke about with the woman of Samaria, isn't for
washing, rather, it is specifically for drinking; and it's benefit is eternal life.

● John 4:11-14 . ."Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and
the well is deep. Where can you get this living water?" Jesus answered,
"Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the
water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become
in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Eternal life is an essential element of Jesus' version of Christianity because
without it, people cannot be his sheep.

● John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow
me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

According to God's testimony, as an expert witness in all matters pertaining
to the good shepherd's sheep, people lacking eternal life also lack His son;
viz; they are quite christless.

● 1John 5:11-12 . . And this is what God has testified: He has given us
eternal life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has the life;
whoever does not have the life, does not have His son.

How many christless people am I talking about?

Well, for starters: as of 2014 there were approximately 1.226 billion Roman
Catholics worldwide who were taught that nobody, not even Popes, obtain
eternal life until they pass on. Well, if 1John 5:11-12 is true-- viz: if God
knows what He's talking about --then all 1.226 billion of those Catholics in
2014 were christless. And that was a very serious situation.

● Rom 8:9 . . Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to
Christ.

This means that every time a Catholic in 2014 said: "the Lord is my
shepherd" they were saying something about themselves that wasn't true.

Q: Why is it that some Christians have eternal life and others don't? Why the
disparity?

A: According to John 5:24 and John 10:27-28; the ones who don't have
eternal life are lacking it because they 1) don't listen to Christ, 2) don't
follow him, and 3) don't believe in God.

Q: How can you possibly suggest that there are thousands of Christians
out there who don't believe in God?

A: The koiné Greek word translated "believe" in John 5:24 goes beyond
mere consent to the existence of God. It speaks of trust; which can be
roughly defined as reliance upon God's statements as a solid, stand-up
person of integrity who can be counted on to always tell the truth.

For example: when somebody argues that nobody obtains eternal life till
people pass on, they are insinuating that God doesn't know what He's
talking about, and by doing so, they make Him out to be a tale spinner;
viz: a liar. (1John 5:9-10)

/

 

[Mungo]

Well, for starters: as of 2014 there were approximately 1.226 billion Roman
Catholics worldwide who were taught that nobody, not even Popes, obtain
eternal life until they pass on. Well, if 1John 5:11-12 is true-- viz: if God
knows what He's talking about --then all 1.226 billion of those Catholics in
2014 were christless. And that was a very serious situation.

Webers_Home, you simply do not understand what the Catholic Church teaches.

"They" do not "pass on" eternal life.

What is eternal life?
"And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

"Know" in the biblical sense is to have an intimate relationship.

How do we get this relationship with Jesus and with the Father?

In Baptism, when we come into the New Covenant and we become children of God.

It is Jesus who gives us (eternal) life. And he tells us how he does this:

Belief
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (Jn 3;16)

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, (Jn3:36)

Obedience
And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good.
If you would enter life, keep the commandments." (Mt 19:17)

Baptism
“We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom 6:4)

Sacrifice
And everyone who has given up houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times more, and will inherit eternal life. (Mt 19:29)

Good Works
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me’….. I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’…. And these will go off …to eternal life.” (Mt 25:35-36, 40. 46)

Eucharist
“So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day”. (Jn 6:53-54)

“While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.” (Mt 26:26-28)

Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” (Rev 19:9)

In the Eucharistic communion we are already invited to anticipate the wedding feast of the Lamb. Our Bridegroom comes to us in an intimate union.

That’s how we have life through him.

 

[Webers_Home]

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"They" do not "pass on" eternal life.

Here's my original statement from post #4

"as of 2014 there were approximately 1.226 billion Roman Catholics
worldwide who were taught that nobody, not even Popes, obtain eternal life
until they pass on."

Pass on refers to passing away. In other words, Catholics are taught that
people don't get eternal life-- that is; if they get it at all --until after they
die. But note the grammatical tense of the "have" verb in the passages
below. It's present tense rather than future, indicating that Christ's believing
followers all have eternal life right now-- no delay, and no waiting period.

● John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has eternal life

● John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message and trust in God
who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins,
but they have already passed from death into life.

● John 6:47 . .Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

● John 6:54 . . Anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal
life

● 1John 5:13 . . I write these things to you who believe in the name of the
Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The conclusion to draw from those passages is that people lacking eternal
life are lacking it because they are not believers.

What is eternal life?

Jehovah's Witnesses construe the passage below to be a definition of eternal
life.

● John 17;2-3 . . You gave him authority over all people, so that he may
give eternal life to all you gave him. Now this is eternal life, that they should
know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

Eternal life is much more than merely hanging out with Jesus and his
Father and getting to know them. According to 1John 1:1-3, eternal life is
sentient and divine; as opposed to human life, which, though sentient, is
organic rather than divine.

Humans relate to each other so well because they have human nature. But
human nature cannot relate well to Christ and his Father because they have
divine nature, which is foreign to human nature. Human nature is just as
foreign to divine nature as an earthworm's nature is foreign to the nature of
the birds that eat them.

So, we could paraphrase Jesus' prayer like this:

"You gave him authority over all people, so that he may give divine nature
to all you gave him. Now this is divine nature, that they should know you,
the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."

Is the possession of divine nature a wild-eyed Christian's pipe dream or a
possibility? Well; according to the apostle Peter, it is most certainly a
possibility.

● 2Pet 1:3-4 . . His divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes
for life and devotion, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own
glory and power. Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and
very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the
divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because
of evil desire.

Seeing as how eternal life actually refers to the kind of life that defines
God's sentient existence, then we could paraphrase 1John 5:11-12 like this:

● 1John 5:11-12 . . And this is what God has testified: He has given us
divine nature, and this nature is in His son. So whoever has God's son has
the nature; whoever does not have the nature, does not have His son.

Back in 1968 while I was still a Roman Catholic, it occurred to me that it
would be a whole lots easier to comply with God's wishes if I were more like
Him than me. In other words: were I made in such a way that it was just as
natural to obey God as it is to disobey Him, then I would have heaven in the
bag. Well; you can imagine my delight to discover that God had the very
same thing in mind when He put together a plan of salvation.

● John 3:14-16 . . Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must
the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have
eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only son, so that
everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

/

 

[tom55]

God told Moses to "make a statue of a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

 

[Mungo]

Webers_Home,
It's late here in England and I'm going away for a week tomorrow morning. So I only have time for a quick reply.

Firstly though, I note that you claim the Catholic Church teaches X orY but give no evidence for your claims.

I will give evidence from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) to show that you are wrong in your understanding. (Note, any emboldening is mine).

You suggest that we can have a participation in the divine life here and now.
That is what the Catholic Church teaches. This divine life is called sanctifying grace.

"Grace is favour, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life." (CCC 1996)
A footnote to this paragraph references 2Pet1:3-4

"Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church." (CCC 1997)

"The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification" (CCC 1999)

"United with Christ by Baptism, believers already truly participate in the heavenly life of the risen Christ, but this life remains "hidden with Christ in God." The Father has already "raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Nourished with his body in the Eucharist, we already belong to the Body of Christ. When we rise on the last day we "also will appear with him in glory." (CCC 1003)

"Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature," member of Christ and coheir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit." (CCC 1265)
This paragraph also references 2Pet1:4

"The Eucharist is the efficacious sign and sublime cause of that communion in the divine life and that unity of the People of God by which the Church is kept in being. (CCC 1325)

"Holy Communion augments our union with Christ. the principal fruit of receiving the Eucharist in Holy Communion is an intimate union with Christ Jesus." (CCC 1391)

BTW - why do quote from Jehovah's Witnesses? Are you a JW?

P.S.You might find my signature helpful.

 

[Webers_Home]

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● John 6:53 . . Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you
eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life
within you.

The kind of life about which the Lord spoke in that statement is eternal life.

● John 6:54 . .Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life

If Catholics actually obtained eternal life from the Eucharist, then they would
need to take communion only once because from that point on they would
never again be in danger of termination in the lake of brimstone depicted at
Rev 20:10-15. The reason is because eternal life is a quality of life that's
impervious to death.

● John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow
me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

The Jews had to eat manna on a regular basis during their forty years on
the march in the Sinai outback; but eating Jesus' flesh and blood on a
regular basis is unnecessary seeing as how eternal life is impervious to the
aging process: viz: it doesn't decay, doesn't wear off or wear out, nor lose
its strength, nor cease to function, nor need to be recharged. Were that not
so, then God would have passed away long ago.

Seeing as how eternal life is impervious to death, then it's also impervious to
the wages of sin.

● John 5:24 . . Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word, and
believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life and will not come to
condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

● Rom 6:23 . . For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal
life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Q: How might an interested party go about obtaining this eternal life about
which you speak?

A: See post #1; and keep in mind that eternal life is a gift; which means if
you make any effort to either earn it, purchase it, or deserve it; you will be
insulting the spirit of charity.

● Rev 22:17 . .The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears
say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him
take the free gift of the water of life.

/

 

[7angels]

i believe the living water is 'life'. not just eternal life but life as due 30:19 says New International Version
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live. life is basically blessings.

166 (aiṓnios) does not focus on the future per se, but rather on the quality of the age (165 /aiṓn) it relates to. Thus believers live in "eternal (166 /aiṓnios) life" right now, experiencing this quality of God's life now as a present possession. (Note the Gk present tense of having eternal life in Jn 3:36, 5:24, 6:47; cf. Ro 6:23.)]

eternal life does not just include what will happen in heaven. i believe all the blessing are one form of eternal life. if this is true then born of water cannot be eternal life. for many gentiles have eternal life/blessings from God and yet won't get into the kingdom of God. eternal life is a result of being reborn and not the cause of it.

no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. this verse states 2 conditions. the one i will deal with here is born of water unless someone needs me to get into born of the Spirit. so if born of water cannot refer to eternal life then what is referred to then? being washed of your sins is a requirement. which is one reason why Jesus died for us. i doubt water baptisms is meant literally because water baptisms is symbolic of us recognizing Jesus as washing our sins away and us being reborn.

btw what does this discussion have anything to do with the op?

God bless

 

[Webers_Home]

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● Matt 16:18 . . The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against my
church.

At some time during Jonah's nautical adventure, he went to a place called
sheol (Jonah 2:3) which is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek word haides;
translated netherworld in in Matt 16:18.

Jonah sited the netherworld at the roots of the mountains. (Jonah 2:7).

Well, needless to say, mountains aren't rooted in the tummies of fish,
rather, they're rooted deep in the earth; which is the very same place to
which the Lord retired during his own demise. (Ps 16:8-10, Matt 12:40,
Acts 2:25-31)

The gates that Jesus spoke of are called bars in Jonah's adventure. (Jonah
2:7).

In other words: though Jonah was alive in the fish at some time during his
adventure (Jonah 2:2) he wasn't alive the whole time because people don't
enter the netherworld as whole men, rather, they enter it as dead men. In
point of fact, Jonah 2:7 speaks of his resurrection.

The point is: Though a percentage of Jesus' sheep will have to pass away
and part company with their body at some point in their lives, none of them
will stay disembodied forever.

● John 6:40 . . For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the
Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him [on] the
last day.

● John 6:44 . . No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw
him, and I will raise him on the last day.

● John 11:25 . . I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me,
even if he dies, will live.

● 1Cor 15:51 . . Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but
we will all be changed, in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last
trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed. For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with
incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality.

Neither Matt 16:18, nor any of the other passages I quoted allow for losses.
In other words; were the Roman Catholic Church the church that Jesus
spoke of, no Catholics, not even one, would ever be in danger of the second
and final death spoken of at Rev 20:10-15.

But of course that is not the case because when Catholics pass away with
un-absolved mortal sins on the books, they go straight to hell with no
stopover in a purgatory.

CCC 1035 . .The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its
eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of
mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell,
“eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in
whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was
created and for which he longs.

/

 

[epostle1]

That's right, the Church's teaching on hell is disturbing to liberals and atheists, so they ignore it. People choose hell by their own volition, unlike your Johnny Calvin who says God creates people just to send them there.

You’re trying to set the Bible against the Church, which is typical Protestant methodology, and ultra-unbiblical. The Bible never does that. You also pit the Catechism against itself, which can only be done by misinterpreting and misrepresenting one or two paragraphs, not to mention your fixation with the Council of Trent. You do a real hatchet job with that one.

 

[Webers_Home]

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● Gen 2:7 . . Then the Lord God formed the man out of the dust of the
ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a
living being.

Adam's body survived 930 years on just that one serving of life (Gen 5:5).
Had he been allowed access to the tree of life, Adam's body would have
survived on that one serving of life indefinitely. (Gen 3:22)

In other words: Adam's body wasn't created immortal. His body was
sustainable, yes; but not immortal because its survival was heavily
dependent upon nutrients found only in the tree of life. Without those
nutrients, whatever they were, Adam's body eventually gave out.

In contrast, nutrition isn't important to the survival of an immortal body
because once an immortal body is fully activated, it can get by without food.
An immortal body might get tired and run down without food, but it won't
pass away.

So; the breath of life as per Gen 2:7 provided Adam's body with a
sustainable variety of life rather than an endless variety. I think that both
sides of the aisle would readily agree that an endless variety of life is to be
preferred over and above a sustainable variety because sustainable varieties
are vulnerable to termination.

In point of fact, the very reason that Christ is a permanent Melchizedekian
priest is because his body came back from death with an endless variety of
life (Heb 7:16-17). In other words, Christ will never be replaced by a
successor because his current body is immortal; whereas Aaronic priests
have to be replaced by successors on a regular basis because their bodies
aren't strong enough to stay alive indefinitely.

Q: The Lord testified that his flesh is a variety of bread that people may eat
in order to stay alive indefinitely (John 6:50-51). If that's so, then why do
Catholics pass away all the time just like everybody else?

A: Well; I should think the answer to that would be obvious. The host is
merely a bakery product; viz: it contains no more of Jesus' flesh than a hot
dog bun when people eat it at communion services.

/

 

[tom55]

-
● John 6:53 . . Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you
eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life
within you.

The kind of life about which the Lord spoke in that statement is eternal life.

● John 6:54 . .Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life

If Catholics actually obtained eternal life from the Eucharist, then they would
need to take communion only once because from that point on they would
never again be in danger of termination in the lake of brimstone depicted at
Rev 20:10-15. The reason is because eternal life is a quality of life that's
impervious to death.

● John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow
me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

The Jews had to eat manna on a regular basis during their forty years on
the march in the Sinai outback; but seeing as how eternal life is impervious to the
aging process: viz: it doesn't decay, doesn't wear off or wear out, nor lose
its strength, nor cease to function, nor need to be recharged. Were that not
so, then God would have passed away long ago.

Seeing as how eternal life is impervious to death, then it's also impervious to
the wages of sin.

● John 5:24 . . Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word, and
believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life and will not come to
condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

● Rom 6:23 . . For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal
life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Q: How might an interested party go about obtaining this eternal life about
which you speak?

A: See post #1; and keep in mind that eternal life is a gift; which means if
you make any effort to either earn it, purchase it, or deserve it; you will be
insulting the spirit of charity.

● Rev 22:17 . .The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears
say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him
take the free gift of the water of life.

/

For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world. They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always. Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.

Jesus also told us to pray: Give us this day our daily bread.

For you to say "If Catholics actually obtained eternal life from the Eucharist" is opposite of scripture and what Jesus said which is "If anyone eats this bread he will live FOREVER".
For you to say Catholics "would need to take communion only once" AND "eating Jesus' flesh and blood on a regular basis is unnecessary" is opposite of scripture which says "give us this bread ALWAYS" and "Give us this day our DAILY BREAD".

Therefor your disagreement is not only with the Catholic Church. It is with Jesus Christ and Scripture.

 

[Webers_Home]

-
A portion of the so-called Apostles' reads: "I believe in the resurrection of the
body"

There's going to be at least two distinctly separate resurrections. There's the
first resurrection as per Rev 20:6 and then later on the second resurrection
as per Rev 20:11-15.

There's quite a bit of information given in the New Testament related to the
quality of the first resurrection's bodies, but scarcely anything about the
second.

One thing I do know about the second resurrection's bodies is that they
won't be immortal. Their termination in the lake of brimstone makes that
pretty obvious.

I also know that all the terminations will be final because according to Dan
12:2 and John 5:28-29 there is only one resurrection allotted per person, so
that nobody is coming back from the lake.

But although the second resurrection's bodies will all be terminated, none
will go out of existence but instead will be preserved as perpetual
nourishment for a curious species of fire-proof worm.

● Isa 66:23-24 . . From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to
sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the Lord. They shall
go out and see the corpses of the people who rebelled against me; for their
worm shall not die, their fire shall not be extinguished; and they shall be an
abhorrence to all flesh.

That rather ghastly scene depicts a sort of tourist attraction similar to the La
Brea Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of prehistoric
creatures, excavated from ancient asphalt deposits, are on display.

A worm that thrives in flame is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable. The 4
inch Pompeii worm inhabits sea water temperatures of 176° Fahrenheit: hot
enough to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create
a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms
that like it even warmer.

But then, the properties of fire are easily revised by the genius who
created them. For example: fire totally incinerated the cities of Sodom and
Gomorrah but left unscathed a desert shrub that Moses encountered in the
Sinai outback while tending his father-in law's sheep. (Ex 3:1-3)

Compare Dan 3:8-27 where a blistering hot fire didn't even so much as
singe the clothing of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego while slaying the
guards that threw them in the furnace.

Now, the million-dollar question is: Though someone believes in the
resurrection of the body; which of the two resurrections do they anticipate
for themselves-- the first or the second.

● 1Pet 3:15 . . Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks
you for a reason for your hope.

The New Testament Greek word for "hope" in Peter's command is elpis (el
pece') which means to anticipate (usually with pleasure) and to expect with
confidence. Note the elements of anticipation, and expectation, and
confidence.

Webster's definition of hope as a verb is very similar: 1) to desire with
expectation of obtainment, and 2) to expect with confidence and trust. Note
the elements of expectation, and confidence, and trust.

Webster's definition of hope as a noun is: 1) a desire accompanied by
expectation of, or belief in, fulfillment, and 2) expectation of fulfillment or
success. Note the elements of expectation, and belief.

In other words: elpis hope is a know-so hope rather than a cross your
fingers hope.

So, unless someone knows for proof-positive, beyond even the slightest
glimmer of sensible doubt, that they are in for the first resurrection, then of
course it is impossible for them to comply with Peter's instructions seeing as
they would not yet have the kind of hope about which he wrote.

● Rom 12:12 . . Rejoicing in hope.

When people are praying for the best, while in the back of their mind
dreading the worst, they have absolutely no cause for rejoicing; no; but they
do have plenty of cause to fear the unknown.

/

 

[tom55]

That's right, the Church's teaching on hell is disturbing to liberals and atheists, so they ignore it. People choose hell by their own volition, unlike your Johnny Calvin who says God creates people just to send them there.

You’re trying to set the Bible against the Church, which is typical Protestant methodology, and ultra-unbiblical. The Bible never does that. You also pit the Catechism against itself, which can only be done by misinterpreting and misrepresenting one or two paragraphs, not to mention your fixation with the Council of Trent. You do a real hatchet job with that one.

Dear Kepha,

It is my opinion that you will not get a constructive conversation with Webers Home. I have noticed in MOST of his threads he just writes and is not really interested in discussing or defending what he writes. To me it appears he is writing sermons. I do not appreciate the lies he tells about The Church but that is his cross to bare. (Thou shall not bear false witness)

Sermon defined: a long or tedious piece of admonition or reproof; a lecture

 

[epostle1]

Webers Home posts the same anti-Catholic garbage in 3 or 4 different forums under different names. Rarely does he engage in discussion.

 

[Webers_Home]

-
● 1Tim 2:4 . . God our savior; who wills everyone to be saved and to come
to knowledge of the truth.

Though the will of God is that of a supreme sovereign, it doesn't always get
the respect that it deserves because the accomplishment of His will is often
thwarted by the rebellious human will's reluctance to comply.

● 2Tim 3:2-8 . . People will . . . make a pretense of religion but deny its
power. For some are always trying to learn but never able to reach a
knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so they
also oppose the truth-- people of depraved mind, unqualified in the faith.

Now let's focus our attention on a different object of God's will.

● John 6:38-40 . . I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the
will of the One who sent me. And this is the will of the One who sent me,
that I should not lose anything of what He gave me, but that I should raise it
[on] the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees
the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him [on]
the last day.”

In that arrangement, God's will gets it's due because the accomplishment of
John 6:38-40 doesn't depend upon the rebellious human will to cooperate
with God, rather, it depends upon His son's will to cooperate; and he is as
loyal and reliable as can possibly be.

● John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.

So; what does that mean for Jesus' sheep? Well; it means that though some
of his sheep may stray, none will ever be lost.

/

 

[Mungo]

Just another plug for that false doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.

 

[Webers_Home]

-
The Bible says that Christ was restored to life for our justification. (Rom
4:25)

In other words: though his crucifixion was sufficient to obtain forgiveness for
people's sins; Christ's crucifixion alone wasn't sufficient to render people
innocent. Though pardoned, people would have been stuck with a guilty
conscience for ever and ever.

This is a very crucial issue in the religion of Christianity and I believe the
Devil knows it and that's why it's in his interests to convince people-- e.g.
the Jehovah's Witnesses --that Christ's crucified body remains deceased.

● 1Cor 15:17 . . And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in
your sins!

/