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The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by keras, Nov 18, 2014.

  1. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    I would never "buy" anything you're trying to sell.


    Paul said: 2Th 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

    The Day of the Lord is what Paul is referring to, and that Day, is coincidental with the sixth Seal.

    The evidence in the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4 - 11 details that all of God's Wrath follows after the Great Multitude is rescued from the Great Tribulation.

    In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus sets that specific and unique time as being abruptly cut off by the same sign found in the sixth Seal: the sun/moon/star sign - which precedes the Day of the Lord in OT prophecy!

    So! The mistake Keras makes is one concerning his mixed-up eschatology, which makes no more sense than the nonsense that a CME will cause physical destruction of Biblical proportions during the time of God's Wrath.

    The Day of the Lord happens after:
    • The midpoint abomination (of Daniel 9:27 as revealed in Rev 13:14-15).
    • The truncated Great Tribuiation (which only starts at the midpoint and is cut off like an animal's tail: short)
    • The sun/moon/star sign - detailed in OT prophecy as coming before God's Wrath, as Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse, and what He revealed to John with the breaking of the sixth Seal.

    The Day of the Lord: brings upon us our redemption, our rescue; when we are gathered together on the clouds with Him.
    • The Day of the Lord then sees us being delivered to the barn of Heaven in Revelation chapter 7 - out of the Great Tribulation which it cut short!

    The Day of the Lord then transitions to OT prophecy concerning God's Wrath.
    • God's Wrath takes time. In Isaiah 34:8, the first Trumpet fire lasts a year.
    • The first Woe alone takes five months.
    • WWIII happens in God's Wrath, and war on that magnitude is not quick either.
    • After all of the Trumpets come the Bowl Judgments and only after six of them are exhausted, does the one 'seven' come to an end at Armageddon.
  2. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    So, Marcus, will this Day be 'glorious'?
    [SIZE=medium]The Day of the Lion, the Bear and the Snake[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Amos 5:8-9 He that made the Pleiades and Orion, who turns deep darkness into dawn and darkens day into night.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] He who summons the waters of the sea and pours them over the earth[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]: Y’hovah is His Name. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]He makes destruction flash forth upon strongholds.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Amos 5:16-20 Calamity and misfortune will come to those who long for the Day of the Lord. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]What will that Day mean for you? It will be a Day of darkness, not light, it will be as when someone runs from a lion only to be confronted by a bear! Or to be bitten by a snake in one’s own house! [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The Day of the Lord will indeed be pitch black, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]without any ray of light. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Amos 8:7-10 The Lord has sworn by the [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]arrogance of Jacob[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], I shall not forget their sin and apostasy. Will not the land quake because of this? Will not all who live in it mourn? [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The whole earth will surge and seeth like the Nile[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], then subside like the river of Egypt. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]On that Day, I will darken the world at noon time[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], all will mourn and lament on that bitter Day.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Ref: REB, CJB. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]those who long for the Day of the Lord’.[/SIZE] ‘long for, or want’, may be better translated as: ‘bring on, or cause to happen’. This applies to the enemies of the Lord, as they strive to impose their political and religious agendas onto the world; their actions will ‘[SIZE=medium]call forth His wrath’[/SIZE]. Deut. 32:22 & 34-35, Ezekiel 7:14, Isaiah 24:1
    [SIZE=medium]‘Calamity and misfortune will come to them’. [/SIZE]The Lord will ‘send fire’, Amos 1:4,7,10,12,14. Amos 2:2 & 5 [SIZE=medium]I shall send fire on Judah, fire to consume the palaces of Jerusalem[/SIZE]. That is: the State of Israel. But note that in Amos 2:6-16, all Israel, the Western nations, will be punished and their military destroyed. ‘[SIZE=medium]He makes destruction flash forth onto the strongholds’[/SIZE]. A coronal mass ejection from the sun will literally fulfil all the prophesies of this Day: Isaiah 30:25-28, Jeremiah 50:22-23, Hosea 2:18, Micah 5:10-11, Zephaniah 1:16, Jeremiah 50:27
    [SIZE=medium]‘The whole earth will surge and subside, like the Nile’.[/SIZE] Massive, worldwide earthquakes will be caused by the microwave penetration of the earth’s crust by this CME. Isaiah 24:18-19, Jeremiah 4:23-24, Revelation 6:14
    [SIZE=medium]‘He pours the waters of the sea over the earth’, [/SIZE]As the earth ‘[SIZE=medium]reels and shakes’[/SIZE], and is ‘[SIZE=medium]moved from its place’[/SIZE], Isaiah 13:13, the lakes and oceans will move violently from side to side, causing huge tsunamis, that will engulf and devastate all the low-lying areas worldwide. Amos 9:6, Nahum 1:8, Jeremiah 51:42
    [SIZE=medium]The Day of the Lord, will be pitch black, at noontime’[/SIZE]. Zephaniah 2:4 also mentions noon day as the time of this terrible event. However the first sign we will see will be a flash of bright light, Isaiah 30:26, Job 36:32, Psalm 18:14. Then the great mass of superheated hydrogen plasma will obscure the sun, as it races toward earth. Isaiah 50:3, Ezekiel 32:7-8, Joel 2:1-2

    [SIZE=medium]‘Jacob’s arrogant and apostate descendants’[/SIZE]. They are the House of Judah – the Jewish people, and the House of Israel – the Western nations; they will all be judged on that Day. Ezekiel 21:1-16, Zechariah 13:7-9, Hosea 7:10, Hosea 8:14, Isaiah 1:25, 2 Peter 3:10, 2 Thess. 1:8

    [SIZE=medium]Marcus, In 1 Thess. 5:2-3, Paul is referring to the Day of the Lord's wrath, but in 2 Thess. 2:1-3 Paul is talking about the Return of Jesus. They are separate Days, many years apart and described quite differently in Scripture. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]The Day of wrath is the one that 'comes as a thief', but the Return Day will be known by anyone with a Bible, as it will happen 1260 days after the Anti-Christ places his image in the Temple. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]You make the common error of thinking the great tribulation of Rev. 7:14 is all the Trumpet and Bowl punishments. In my REB it is translated as 'great ordeal' and it refers only to the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. The great multitude are righteous Christians who gather and come to live in all of the Holy Land soon after the Day of wrath. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Hosea 11:10-11[/SIZE]
  3. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    It would be much better for your case if you were approximately correct or close to correct once in a while.

    The Great Tribulation is the most terrible time on earth - for the Elect. Period.

    The Great Tribulation has not include God's Wrath because that is deserved upon the wicked.

    The wanton killing of Christian for obeying Christ's command not to take the mark and so not be able to support themselves, or not to worship the talking image of the anti-Christ set up in the Holy Place within the Temple which results in their execution - is the worst thing ever because it is undeserved.

    So once again, you cannot figure out the Bible, just as you can't figure out anything anyone else is saying. The only thing you understand is what pops into your head, which you take as gospel.
  4. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    [SIZE=medium]Marcus, In 1 Thess. 5:2-3, Paul is referring to the Day of the Lord's wrath, but in 2 Thess. 2:1-3 Paul is talking about the Return of Jesus.[/SIZE] Quote Keras. Are you saying these events are the same Day?

    Yes, the Great Tribulation will be a terrible time. It is clear from Rev. 8, 9, 11 & 13:5-10 it will happen in the last 42 months, 1260 days, 3.5 years before the Return. But the 'tribulation' mentioned in Rev 7:14 and Rev 6:12-17, is before that time.

    Please try to keep your provocative nature out of discussions on an international forum. Your nasty comments just degrade your own case.
    Plus to make assertions and opinions unsupported by scripture means you don't have a case anyway.
  5. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    In dealing with your foolishness keras, I will go to Scripture because you in your error might mislead some poor innocent soul into utter confusion.

    Unlike you, I have evidence in Scripture to back up what I say.

    So here is your un-Scriptural foolish take on Jesus' parousia.

    First of all, when Jesus comes on the Day of the Lord, which is His parousia, (they are one and the same) it is like a thief. It is at night, and unknown beforehand, unexpected by the masters of the house (the wicked) and He comes to steal something from them - US.

    Mt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),

    21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

    29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

    v.15: the midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27.
    v.21: the Great Tribulation. Jesus states it as being specific and unique. It has never happened, and it will never happen again.
    v.22: the Great Tribulation is cut short. It does not go on for the rest of the one 'seven.'
    v.29: the sun/moon/star event. This is associated many times in OT prophecy as the Day of the Lord.
    - there is no Day of the Return. There is Christ's parousia - and that happens on the Day of the Lord.
    v.30: compare this with Isaiah 34. Jesus is equipped with a sword of the Word. He strikes down our enemies with His Breath.
    v.31: the resurrection and the Rapture as Paul later details in 1Th 4:16-17.
    This portion of the Olivet Discourse sets the Day of the Lord as one where we are rescued.

    The sun/moon/star event is repeated in the sixth Seal, and it results in a Great Multitude of souls taken out of the Great Tribulation. That's a perfect match.
    The Great Multitude arrives just before God's Wrath is about to be unleashed upon the world by about 30 minutes in Revelation chapters 7/8.
    The Day of the Lord, in the OT - which is not addressed to the Church but to unrepentant Israel - is also a Day of God's Wrath.
    And we see that with the first Trumpet from Revelation.
    The Lord (Jesus) from OT prophecy is at the head of the 144,000 who then assault Jerusalem and fight a second battle in the Valley of Decision, which scholars have pinpointed to the Valley of Jehoshaphat - which is south of Jerusalem around Bethlehem.

    The end is not yet.
    Your "it is clear" is not from Scripture that your take on the Great Tribulation will happen as per the chapters you cite. That is your erroneous and delusional self-thinking which you believe.
  6. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Marcus used two verses and called them a 'perfect match' -
    Matthew 24:29 As soon as that time of tribulation has passed; the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give her light, the stars will fall from the sky and the celestial powers will be shaken.
    Revelation 6:12-13...the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal. There was a violent earthquake, the sun turned black and the moon as red as blood. The stars fell from the sky....
    Sure doesn't read the same to me! It is clear to anyone without an agenda to confuse, that Matthew 24 goes on to say Jesus Returns in glory and Revelation 6 goes on with all the events to happen before the Return, in Rev. 19:11

    You ignore all the prophesies, OT and NT telling about how the Lord will use fire to judge the world when it is once again 'as in the days of Noah'.
    Actually, in a way its not so bad to be unaware of what will happen; what can we do about it anyway? Plus Daniel 12:10b says 'only a few wise people will understand'.

    1 Corinthians 3:13 The works of each person will at last be brought into view, the Day of Judgement will expose them. For that Day will dawn in fire and the fire will test the worth [faith] of everyone.

    [SIZE=medium]A letter to the peoples of God, scattered around the world:[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Praise to God and to our Lord Jesus for the hope of salvation and for the protection of His power. Be joyful, although you may have to suffer for a little while, as you pass through the assayers fire.[/SIZE] Since Christ endured bodily suffering, you too must expect this judgement as the end of all days is upon us, but do not be taken aback by [SIZE=medium]the fiery ordeal which has come to test you[/SIZE] as though you did not know it was coming.
    [SIZE=medium]All that has happened concerning Jesus, confirms for us the messages of the prophets, which you will all do well to take seriously. What they say has been given to us by the Holy Spirit and interpretation is by comparing scripture with scripture. Just as in the past there were false prophets and teachers, so it is now. Those who have misled My people will suffer dire punishment.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]Note this: In the last days scoffers will come, they will mock and say: ‘What happened to His promised coming? Nothing has changed as yet’. They forget how God destroyed all the wicked peoples in Noah’s day and now the world is reserved for burning and again the godless will be destroyed.[/SIZE] The great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath will come unexpectedly, with the heavens tearing apart, flames will envelope the earth and with a loud noise ALL the earth will be brought to judgement.
    [SIZE=medium]In expectation of this, do your best to be found at peace with God. Friends: you have been warned, take care that you do not be taken in by wrong theories and false teachings, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]To Him be all the glory![/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] Ref: R.E.Bible 1 & 2 Peter, condensed.[/SIZE]
  7. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    A blood red is not the moon's light. There is no discrepancy to eliminate these two verses from not describing the same event. What you are proposing is the ultra-literal test that each word be exactly the same from different authors. That is not logical, nor is it Biblical.

    What is a match is after the sun/moon/star event of Mt 24:29, is the gathering of the Elect who survive the Great Tribulation.

    In Revelation 7:9-17, no less an authority than an Elder informs John that the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulaiton and the match is that this too happens after the sun/moon/star event.

    You are delusional once again: I do not ignore all the fire references to the Day of the Lord's Wrath. Indeed, I cite them as happening just when prophecy says they will occur: on the Day of the Lord.

    I just reject and I refute your unscientific fantasy that a coronal mass ejection is going to burn a third of the earth. That's just plain silly; which marks you as one who is not wise.
  8. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Marcus, denial of the Prophetic Word will not change God's plans. Your argument isn't with me, if you have a better plan, tell God about it.
    Not only are you wrong by saying the moon blood red and darkened are the same event, but you are wrong in thinking 1 Thess. 5:2-3 and 2 Thess. 2:1-3 are talking about the same Day. I would like to hear anyone else's beliefs on these things.

    [SIZE=medium]What the Word tells us WILL happen:[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]The enemies of the Lord gather[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Micah 4:11, Ezekiel 36:2[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]They conspire to attack Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Psalm 83:1-8[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]They prepare their weapons[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Psalm 7:12, Ezekiel 7:14 [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium][the situation today][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]The Lord will make those weapons recoil upon themselves [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]- Psalm 7:13-16, Obad. 15[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]God will use His Creation, the sun to send fire[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Deut. 32:22 & 34-34, Isaiah 30:26 & 30, 2 Peter 3:7 & 10[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]He will judge the nations, all the wicked will die[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Isaiah 63:1-6, Hab. 3:12, Rev 14 18-20, Isaiah 66:17, Isaiah 29:20-21, Hebrews 10:27[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]The sun will explode an extremely bright flash and the moon will shine bright red[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Isaiah 30:26, Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20, Rev. 6:12[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Then the sun, moon and stars will be obscured by the approaching Coronal Mass Ejection[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Isaiah 13:9-13, Ezekiel 32:7-8[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]A huge superhot mass of hydrogen plasma approaches the earth[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] – Joel 1:15-20, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 1:14-18[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Everyone will be terrified[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Jer. 6:24-26, Ezekiel 21:5-7a, Isaiah 13:6-8, Rev. 6:15-17[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]The whole earth will be enveloped by fire[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Isaiah 66:15, Zeph. 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Only a remnant will survive in the Holy Land[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Zech. 13:8-9, Isaiah 6:11-13[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]His enemies will become ashes[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Malachi 4:3, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jer. 49:2, Matthew 3:12b[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Millions will die around the world[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Psalm 97:3-5, Jer. 25:33, Isaiah 13:12[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]But most will take shelter until it passes and survive to form a One World Govt[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Daniel 7:23-24, Rev. 17:12[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]The Holy Land will be regenerated[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Joel 2:21-24, Isaiah 35, Amos 9:13-15, Jer. 33:12-14[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]And the Lord's righteous people will gather there[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Ezekiel 20:34-38, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Rev 7:9[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]They will become the new nation of Beulah[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 36:3-38, Jer. 31[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]They will build a new Temple[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] – Zech. 6:15, Haggai 2:9, Ezekiel 40 to 48[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]The attack by a Northern army will be won by the Lord[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] – Ezekiel 38:8 & 22, Joel 2:20[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]The leaders of Beulah will sign a peace treaty with the leader of the O.W.G[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. Daniel 9:27, Isaiah 28:15[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Seven years later, Jesus will Return for His Millennial reign[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Rev 19:11-21, Matthew 24:30[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]The Lord has told us His plans and He will not relent or change them[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - Jeremiah 4:28[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]There are plenty more prophesies and details to prove this scenario. Believe it or not; up to all to decide![/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Psalm 1:11-12[/SIZE]
  9. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    Gee, let's put some verses in kooky order like you actually know what you're talking about Keras.

    i don't deny prophecy - I deny that you have any clue as to what you are talking about.

    Paul says they are the Day of the Lord. You say otherwise - which is not wise at all. So what does that make you?
  10. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    THERE ARE TWO DAYS OF THE LORD to come in our future!
    There have been others before now and there will be another at the end of the Millennium.

    The next prophesied event is the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath, where He judges the nations. Psalm 110:5-6 says the Lord [Jesus] sits at the right hand of God, when He judges the nations on His Day of wrath.

    We know there will be a seven year period before the Return, the second half is the Great Tribulation. The Lord's Day of wrath takes place on the Sixth Seal. Any shifting of this to a later time invokes the curse of Rev. 22:19.

    Not until the G.T. is over and the Satanic armies assault Jerusalem, does Jesus Return.
  11. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    More nonsense from a dude that thinks a coronal mass ejection is going to burn a third of the earth.

    It is the Day - singular - of the Lord. It is a very complex event composed of contrasting halves and opposites.

    We - but not you - know that the Day of the Lord is preceded by the beginning of the one 'seven,' it's midpoint abomination, and the abruptly truncated Great Tribulation.

    This happens because of the otherwise unknowable beforehand sun/moon/star event happens. This specific and unique event foretold for eons precedes the Day of the Lord - singular.

    The Day of the LORD

    The Day of the Lord is a specific and unique event in prophecy. It is mentioned several times in Old Testament by Major and Minor Prophets as a time for God’s Wrath or retribution. In the New Testament, it is linked inexorably with Christ’s return. As a time period though, it is not fixed within the whole of eschatology. Depending upon the eschatology of the writer, this foretold event varies in length. Some would have it encapsulate the entire whole of the one ‘seven’ for instance. Others link it to the Millennium. This is not disallowed from the meaning of “yom” in Hebrew; in fact, the overall meaning for “day,” can exceed a single period of light, 24 hours, or even years as we use the word in the present day, or like the day of the dinosaur, “day” can span millennia.

    The initial study of the Day of the Lord, then focuses on the attributes associated with this specific and unique event. Another aspect to be explored encompasses all the various actions accomplished on the Day of the Lord. Both are enumerated in prophecy and provide the basis for this study. An initial assumption regarding the length of the Day of the Lord a reader might make would be the simplest: a single day. Is this possible or are the events and actions surrounding this very important date such that a longer time period is necessary?

    Like the emerging picture of Gabriel’s one ‘seven’ which has two completely separate and opposing sides, the prophecy concerning the Day of the Lord is equally mixed so that it seems to be describing two different events. On the one hand, there is an eerie calm before the storm, literally, and on the other hand there is this tumultuous upheaval with blood, fire and smoke. This dichotomy can be resolved in the light of the nature of the Day of the Lord when viewed as the seminal event Christians have been looking forward to for centuries: being gathered to the Lord.

    As Paul notes, Christ’s victory for people as a whole is a two-sided outcome. He uses a first century familiarity of the Roman world in 2nd Corinthians 2:14-16:
    2CO 2:14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him. 15 For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. 16 To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life.

    This type of celebration would have been understood in the Roman world in the first few centuries after Jesus, but doesn’t make the transition to the 21st century well. In those days, the commanding General would parade his Army through Rome on the way to one of the Temples to celebrate his campaign’s victories. In tow, would be the spoils of war: booty, treasure and people. Some of the captured would be enslaved. But most of the captured opposing force would face a different fate; they would be the sport of the games and face execution.

    The first, the victors, would be reveling in their celebration. The incense the priests would burn along the way would to them be like the sweet smell of success. However, the same incense would be like the smell of death for the vanquished at the end of the procession. To them, they were marching to their death. So the same event, in analogy to Christ here in the Epistles, has in one event two completely different outcomes and takes on a totally different perception.

    Another aspect of the Day of the Lord has to do with the establishment of the Messiah that the Jews are still looking forward to in prophecy. This is the Messiah of Kingship, who conquers the world and sets up His holy nation of Israel that does not rebel against Him. This is the Messiah that was not represented in Jesus’ first advent. The Jewish leaders were looking for a Savior from the world that would fight and win, not a Savior from their sin that would die on the cross, and so they missed recognizing Jesus as their Savior.

    To this day, Jews still reject Jesus as the Messiah because of all the passages in Scripture that describe this warring, conquering King do not apply to the Servant that Christians present in their witness. Instead they are looking forward to the coming time, the Day of the Lord when these passages come to be. But this day is not a day of celebration for Israel. The prophets describe the Day of the Lord as: distress, destruction, ruin; a cruel day, a day of wrath with fierce anger, a day of trouble, a day of clouds and blackness, a time of doom, a day of darkness not light. They say the shouting of the warrior will be there and the land made desolate with fire; it will be a bitter day. The people will be crying “Alas” and they will be wailing and trembling in despair.

    Joel says:
    JOEL 2:11 The day of the LORD is great;
    it is dreadful.
    Who can endure it?

    And Amos says:
    AM 5:18 Woe to you who long
    for the day of the LORD!
    Why do you long for the day of the LORD?

    The message the Prophets have for Israel is not a pleasant one. It is more like the smoke of the incense for the prisoners than that for the victors. Yet this is the day the Jews look forward to in the Messiah. This is the second half of Isaiah’s prophecy in 61:2 which Jesus did not proclaim in His first Advent: “the day of vengeance of our God.” Jesus read and fulfilled the first part, “the year of the LORD's favor” and that is all He claimed in Luke 4:21 for His first advent. However, the Word of God will not return to Him empty (Isa 55:11); Jesus will accomplish that vengeance upon His second coming.

    For to the Church, however, the Day of the Lord is different. It is a promised time. Much like et-qes carries a negative connotation in the Hebrew for the end-times, when speaking of the end-times, teleiosis, the Greek NT carries a positive connotation with it.

    …before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
    AC 2:21 And everyone who calls
    on the name of the Lord will be saved.'

    To the Church, this is a day of redemption, a day when the elect are rescued from the world. This is the day when those will be saved in the third aspect of salvation, when they are gathered up to be with Christ. This is the day when the Church will receive their inheritance.

    This is day of two different outcomes. It will literally be a night and day difference for those on the earth. Like the Roman victory procession, to some it will be sweet; to others it will be a stench. In Christ, some will be raised to eternal life; all others will suffer His Wrath on the earth. The Day of the Lord will have different looks, one before and one after, and that difference all pivots on the coming of our Lord Christ Jesus. Likewise, the sense the Day of the Lord carries with it hinges upon a person’s decision about Christ, and that decision, whether He be Lord, liar, or lunatic, then determines the outcome that person will experience.
  12. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    ....the prophecy concerning the Day of the Lord is equally mixed so that it seems to be describing two different events.... Quote Marcus

    Seems to be? It IS two different events and that is undeniable from Rev. 6:17, where the Day of the Lord's wrath happens during the Sixth Seal and it isn't until Rev 19:11 that He Returns on the Great Day of Almighty God. Rev. 16:14
    Also in Isaiah 61:2, the Day of vengeance of our God... is followed by an amazing description of the Lord's righteous people rebuilding the ruined cities and living in the Holy Land, being a 'light to the nations', Isaiah 42:6, and it is clear from many prophesies this will happen before the Return.

    Did you author that article in #131? Please provide its provenance.
  13. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    No, it's the same day and it's made up of opposites.

    The principle is rescue-then-wrath; which IS the lesson of Noah and Lot. More when I get back. Read on keras, you might learn something.

    papers #1 & 2 - click here.

    The Day of the Lord
    and the sun/moon/star event
    When speaking of the Day of the Lord, there are nearly two dozen times when it is mentioned in translation. This phrase is mentioned by Isaiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Zechariah and Malachi in the Old Testament. The King James does so in Jeremiah, but that verse is in context of the Israelites' victory over the Egyptians, and it is not an end-time passage. In nearly all other Old Testament references however, it is associated with wrath, destruction, battle and doom which does have a strong end-time connection. The phrase is also associated with deliverance too though, and in Malachi, it is set with the precursor event whereby Elijah comes before that Day comes. The Day of the Lord is also mentioned in Acts as a quote of Joel, and Paul uses it four times, two of which are in the eschatological books of Thessalonians, and Peter uses it in an end-time reference once. The quote of Joel is said by Peter to be a fulfillment of the Pentecost, and as a near-term fulfillment, that aspect will be addressed later. What marks this day with its sometimes confusing dual aspects of wrath and deliverance is a signature event about the sun, moon, and stars.

    There are three times the Day of the Lord is explicitly mentioned and tied to the sun/moon/star event: one in Isaiah, and twice in Joel.

    ISA 13:9 See, the day of the LORD is coming
    --a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger--
    to make the land desolate
    and destroy the sinners within it.

    ISA 13:10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
    will not show their light.
    The rising sun will be darkened
    and the moon will not give its light.

    JOEL 2:31 The sun will be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood
    before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

    JOEL 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes
    in the valley of decision!
    For the day of the LORD is near
    in the valley of decision.

    JOEL 3:15 The sun and moon will be darkened,
    and the stars no longer shine.

    JOEL 3:16 The LORD will roar from Zion
    and thunder from Jerusalem;
    the earth and the sky will tremble.
    But the LORD will be a refuge for his people,
    a stronghold for the people of Israel.

    Thus a fact can be established about the Day of the Lord, it is accompanied by the darkening of the sun and the moon and from Isaiah, even the stars. This aspect of darkness or gloom is seen in many of the other Day of the Lord passages which don’t necessarily mention the sun and moon. However, when the relationship between the celestial events in the “heavens” are understood to be inexorably linked to the Day of the Lord, the darkness then refers back to the sun and moon not giving their light. One of the other aspects of this darkness is clouds. In fact in a companion verse to Ezekiel 30:3 is 32:7 (the latter which also carries near and far term properties in its prophecy).

    EZE 30:3 For the day is near,
    the day of the LORD is near--
    a day of clouds,
    a time of doom for the nations.

    EZE 32:7 When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens
    and darken their stars;
    I will cover the sun with a cloud,
    and the moon will not give its light.

    So, the darkening of the sun and moon, and now even the stars is explained. Notice too, the sense of doom with God’s opening statement: “When I snuff you out…” The end does not come like a flash, but God savors His Judgment and as will be laid out; His Wrath takes time. This verse is one of the few times that God actually explains how something is done too. The darkening is done by an immense cloud cover. Enough so that it will turn day into night. This is not unreasonably or unfathomable; such a phenomenon happens all the time with very dense and high-reaching thunderstorm cumulus nimbus clouds which form in the summer. The miraculous portion will be the scope: covering the entire earth. This is on a world-wide Biblical scale like the Flood.

    The point herein is that not only can the Day of the Lord be identified by the preceding celestial signature of God darkening the skies with an immense cloud cover, but when this sign is mentioned it is a direct reference to the Day of the Lord. So when the sun/moon/star sign is mentioned, as it is in the Olivet Discourse in quoting Isaiah 13:10, the events of Mt 24:29 and the subsequent Sign of the Son of Man in the sky can be established as part of the Day of the Lord which follows this initial celestial sign. In this way, the importance laid upon the Day of the Lord in Scripture can be understood because it means the blazing return of Christ Jesus on the clouds in all its ramifications for the world. So, because of the three specific mentions of the Day of the Lord connected with the sun/moon/star sign given in the Bible, the two events are firmly linked. Therefore, it can be concluded that with every instance of the sun/moon/star sign, which precedes the Day of the Lord, that is mentioned in prophecy, the revealed detail which follows, happens in conjunction with the Day of the Lord.

    The Sun/moon/star event
    Weather forecast: cloudy, mild and no wind
    The Day of the Lord may start out like any other day, but that soon changes. This day may or may not be a literal 24 hours, but as period of time taken together, constitutes a single period of time. The Day of the Lord, or Christ’s parousia, contains many different elements so much so that reading it sounds like two different stories. One in the familiar passages of the Gospel ends with the gathering. The other from the Old Testament speaks of blood, fire and smoke. Both are identifiable by a single specific and unique event: the sun/moon/star sign in the sky. This sign will be so unmistakable that even the non-Christians will heed it, but as shall be shown their conclusion about what it means is as wrong as their theology.

    REV 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

    This forms a sequence of events:
    • Earthquake
    • Sun/moon/star event
    • Scrolling of the sky
    • Mountain moving earthquake

    As the sixth Seal starts out there is an earthquake. The first element, the shaking of the earth has as a theological basis its foundation in the Minor Prophets.

    HAG 2:6 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: `In a little while I will once more shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land. 7 I will shake all nations…

    Shaking the heavens and the earth indicates that these are both elements of creation rather than the realm of God. Likewise, the nations will also be shaken. The idea here is two-fold. One, what is hidden will be made plain. This analogy works like this. In a container place some rocks and cover them with sand. Shaking the container will actually bring the rocks to the surface as the sand works its way downward filling the smaller spaces the around the rocks. The other is that is only what is unshakeable or solid will remain. This means all the falsehoods built upon lies will come down and only the truth of God remains and in conjunction with the first aspect, become plain because it is all that is left standing. This is exactly what the author of Hebrews says in quoting Haggai:

    HEB 12:26a …now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." 27 The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken--that is, created things--so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

    Which raises the question of what remains? As the truth cannot be shaken, then truth remains. The Psalms speak of this in reverse fashion, here like the term Holy being applied in reverse fashion to the righteous in the meaning of Saints, going to those that are like Mount Zion; they trust in the Lord. As Jesus is unshakeable so is Heaven:

    PS 125:1 Those who trust in the LORD are like Mount Zion,
    which cannot be shaken but endures forever.

    The Seal account does not address the events within the sixth Seal as the Day of the Lord, but having the element of the sun/moon/star event certainly includes it as describing that Day because of the multiple accounts and references to it. This second event in Revelation’s Seal account has a parallel in the Olivet Discourse. It comes directly after the period Jesus identifies as the Great Distress “unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.” This preserves this section as maintaining a straight line chronological order. As a sign, the sun/moon/star event has an element of the signature of God in the miraculous. Miracles are God’s stamp of exclusivity that marks an event as being authored by Him. God used the miraculous to put His stamp on the Law with all the miracles in bringing the Hebrew nation out of Egypt. Prophets are imbued with the miraculous to validate their words as coming from God. Jesus’ miracles proved God the Father witnessed to His teaching as well as Jesus. So it is fitting that Christ’s return be stamped with the miraculous as an indelible seal of God’s work.

    As a time sequence marker, the darkening of the sun, the bloody appearance of the moon, and the fig like aspect to the stars, allows the sixth Seal to be linked directly to Jesus’ Olivet Discourse to the Disciples. Jesus’ Words as recorded by Matthew and Mark are not a direct quote of any Old Testament passage. Luke gives no detail, but he does state all three as signs in his gospel, but then his book is a compilation rather than a strict recitation. Starting with the Olivet Discourse as a mainline timeline are the following descriptions:

    MT 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days
    " `the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

    MK 13:24 "But in those days, following that distress,
    " `the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;

    MK 13:25 the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

    LK 21:25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars.

    As a matter of a counterpoint, looking at the sun/moon/star event ushers in some overlap of verses, because as a theme, darkness appears more than once in the struggle between God and Satan and more specifically, as a Judgment by God. Darkness can apply to being outside of God’s orb, as being thrown into the darkness when rejected by God. Darkness also represents the power of evil because it contains no light, being representative of Jesus. Darkness was featured at Christ’s crucifixion. Darkness is also used as Judgment of God in the fourth Trumpet and the fifth Bowl Judgment.

    In this commentary, the idea behind presenting the Day of the Lord has it as a special day, separate from the rest. While darkness is used to demonstrate the withdrawal of the Lord’s favor and so act as a form of punishment, the darkness on this day in the verses linked to this particular day have additional characteristics not associated with other Judgments. To identify this day as a literal day, the three parts, should be listed. In addition, prophecy connects certain elements with the Day of the Lord aside from just darkness: blood, fire and smoke. These or some action by God which would lead to that should also be present in the context of any sun/moon/star passages which could be used to picture this unique day.

    If the first order of the Day is an earthquake, then this covering of clouds could be just as sudden. While no verse puts both on the same day: that remains a distinct possibility. Joel does list an earthquake before the darkening as well. If the darkening sky were to be accepted as a natural phenomenon, then there would not be the fear expressed by those hiding themselves. Having it happen quickly would reinforce the change in the heavens as being supernatural. Man, not regularly acknowledging God, would then be forced to concede that he is faced with something he doesn’t understand and it follows that fear would surround his thinking. Just such a decisive change is indicated in Amos:

    AM 8:9 "In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD,
    "I will make the sun go down at noon
    and darken the earth in broad daylight.

    The point here is one of contrast. Noon, supported in the Hebrew, is the brightest part of the day. It is this time that God chooses to make dark announcing the end of the Great Distress that has persecuted followers of Christ. A rough parallel would be Elijah pouring water several times on the sacrifice God will consume on Mount Carmel, seemingly; it is against the odds. The accompanying word study to ‘noon,’ sohar, backs this up:

    The brightness of that hour symbolizes the intense purity of justice (Ps 37:6; cf. Job 11:17) and the blessing that dispels gloom (Isa 59:10). It is also viewed as a time of security; thus a conquest carried on at this time indicates a conqueror’s superior strength (Jer 6:4; 15:8; 20:16 Zeph 2:4). Conversely, the rebellious grope in darkness even at noonday (Deut 28:28f.; Isa 58:10; Job 5:14). Since the sun will set at noon on the day of judgment, the troubles of that day will be very severe (Amos 8:9).―TWOT p.755

    The nature of the sun going down at noon with the verb action has not been stressed in this analysis. Down is implied. Go is a primitive root word and has a variety of applications to include the setting of the sun. By itself, the verb action here does not lend itself to complete understanding of the process by which the sun goes, the important aspect of this verse is the timing which shows the utterly opposite contrast; at its peak: the sun is darkened. This is because the nature by which the sun is removed may be understood in light of other Bible prophecies. The important aspect here is the darkening of the earth; all relative accounts are in agreement there. Having the sun go down would then be like a figure of speech for its absence to provide the light of day; the important part of Amos 8:9 is the timing of its absence.

    Now while Amos describes a time of wrath against Israel what evidence separates this day from other instances revealed in Revelation to include darkness, specifically, the fourth Trumpet of the seventh Seal and the fifth Bowl? The very section begins with the time being “ripe for my people Israel; I will spare them no longer” as God says. This in itself suggests the beginning of judgment. Another clue which will tie this day to the Day of the Lord is the cryptic passage in verse 8:3, where bodies are flung everywhere and then silence. But revealing the nature of that passage will have to wait until later in this chapter, but it does tie in with the Day of the Lord as will be explained.

    An aspect of the Bible which is lost with the advent of modern post-Renaissance perspective is the imagery surrounding various descriptions of this sun/moon/stars event. John’s use of imagery of sackcloth, blood and figs is not literal, but can be understood as being both descriptive of an unscientific viewpoint and also harkening to a greater meaning from the Bible. The Revelation verse is not an objective news report. To remove oneself and try to describe an event in an absolute, neutral and objective manner, especially one in which they were largely ignorant, was not part of their culture. Thus the reader has to accept this passage and like passages within the viewpoint that was prevalent then because this is another instance where the observer’s true point of view holds. From the viewing point on earth, the reader can conclude that the lights of the heavens will not be viewable. Hence the aspect of darkening as is used in Jesus’ Olivet Discourse and other sun/moon/star references. Furthermore, as to falling stars, not only did the ancient Hebrew people have no scientific knowledge of stars as solar fusion furnaces in all their various sizes, even in the educated age in the Roman age of Caesars the apostles did not have an objective point of view of space. From an observer’s true point of view, though not possible for a star as massive as the sun to fall to earth, nevertheless could describe a meteorite shower and they are commonly called falling stars, just as people today refer to sunrises and sunsets or even the sun ‘going down’ from Amos.

    The greater meaning the reader can get out of the figurative language is how it is associated in the Bible, especially from John’s point of view because he is the writer. His experience, growing up with the Scriptures which modern Christians know as the Old Testament and his personal experience under Jesus ought to be taken into account. First of all, when John writes that the sun is like sackcloth, and the stars fall as figs, is to use simile. Also the color of the moon being blood red, and while the moon in an eclipse can appear reddish, may be imbued with descriptive language to suggest another element at work in the sixth Seal.

    Sackcloth was coarse like burlap and was the dress of prisoners, slaves and the poor. It was adopted by prophets and worshippers to show identity with the poor and slaves and also to show mourning. The aspect of doom inherent with mourning is aptly applied here. This is day of sorrow. The image of darkness coming with judgment as with Pharaoh in Egypt is reflected in the Prophets as coming from God:

    ISA 50:3 I clothe the sky with darkness
    and make sackcloth its covering."

    Blood can be a cleansing agent; it is provided by God for the remission of sin. It is blood that makes atonement for one’s life. In the Exodus, blood averted harm by substituting for the firstborn and appeased the angel of death. Likewise, Christ’s blood propitiates God’s wrath from believers in Jesus. But this aspect of the redeemer in grace also carries with it the aspect of wrath. As the goel of Isaiah 63:16 refers back to the winepress of Isaiah 63:2 and in Isaiah 63:4 describes both the year of the Lord’s favor which Jesus quoted for His ministry, the word for redeemer in Isaiah also is the one who brings about the day of the Lord’s vengeance. Blood is also a judgment upon the world and the means for expressing wrath. The blood that will pollute the land brings up another use of goel in Hebrew, defilement. Those left to take God’s wrath will have their water turned to blood like Moses did, and the same blood that cleanses the Saints becomes a curse for the damned as it will be all they have to drink eventually: drinking blood is prohibited by the Law. Much like Paul’s analogy of the burning incense to the returning victors’ celebration contrasts to the same perception it has for the condemned, the same element, blood, can have two vastly different meanings on the Day of the Lord depending on which side of judgment a person falls.

    The last figurative simile has overtones in prophetic passages from the Old Testament and to the very Gospel message Jesus used to indicate the sun/moon/star event was a sign for those the Disciples represented, the core of God’s Church here on Earth. While it is not possible to discern John’s intent in writing this section entirely, the parallel between stating the stars to fall like figs, especially when wind is involved with all the overtones that wind carries with it being the word for the Spirit of God becomes unmistakable. If John wanted to point at the Gospel message of the Olivet Discourse, he could do nothing more to indicate alignment with the parable Jesus gives to the listeners to know this is the time they have inquired about: Jesus’ return.

    MT 24:32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

    So in the figurative sense, John is also describing a day of sorrow that rich and poor will mourn. It has a cutting edge to it in both redemption and wrath as the two uses of blood. Finally, the end is very near, right at the door as Jesus said. So adding these elements to the description gives the verse significance that transcends just the physical descriptions of events in the celestial realm.
    On the other hand, the description of the heavens’ signs will be visible and real. There is a literal aspect to the Day of the Lord with the sun/moon/star event. To uncover this day and how it can be understood in terms modern man would be familiar with, leads to the Old Testament. First is the nature of the sun becoming like sackcloth. This event is perhaps best described in Ezekiel, here in a lament directed at Egypt, describes a future apocalypse:

    EZE 32:7 When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens
    and darken their stars;
    I will cover the sun with a cloud,
    and the moon will not give its light.

    EZE 32:8 All the shining lights in the heavens
    I will darken over you;
    I will bring darkness over your land,
    declares the Sovereign LORD.

    First of all, the image God uses here in Ezekiel shows that His Wrath is not quick in being carried out but takes time. The picture the words paint is of a flame being slowly extinguished for lack of oxygen. The process is slow and painful; much like crucifixion was in Jesus’ time. It also carries with it the idea of darkness, and all that is represented when the light (a symbol of Jesus and God) is removed. While those condemned to God’s judgment may wish to get it over with quickly, that is not what is in store for them.

    The applicability of this verse in Ezekiel to the Day of the Lord is loose. Originally speaking of Egypt to be smashed in her arrogance by the Babylonians, it does contain the general order of sun/moon/stars in the event. Blood is also a major component in the passage, but being in Egypt may not be the same as the great flow of blood that will emanate from God’s Winepress which cover the land around Jerusalem. However, as and example of how God will fulfill prophecy with the sun becoming like sackcloth, this verse can be used to show the means by which God brings that about, and the aspect of clouds being used to make the sun like sackcloth was described by another Prophet:

    ZEP 1:14 The great day of the Lord is near —
    near and coming quickly.
    The cry on the day of the Lord is bitter;
    the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry.

    15 That day will be a day of wrath—
    a day of distress and anguish,
    a day of trouble and ruin,
    a day of darkness and gloom,
    a day of clouds and blackness —

    16 a day of trumpet and battle cry
    against the fortified cities
    and against the corner towers.

    As a modern people, this event where the sky is darkened by cloud cover can be accomplished and understood as an unprecedented weather phenomenon whereby the clouds are so thick, like that under a summer thunderstorm where it literally gets dark. In one aspect of interpretation, this could remove the sun from sight. Covering the earth completely is not a normal weather pattern and so brings in that aspect of the miraculous. Just as Job gets his audience with God, He speaks to Job out of a storm, so it will be with this sign when God is about to come to the world.

    ZEC 14:6 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime--a day known to the LORD.

    The aspect of unique would single this day out for consideration, but it must be remarked that ‘unique’ itself is inferred from the original Hebrew. While the NASB renders Zechariah 14:7 similarly, the King James renders it as ‘one day.’ This goes back to the word in the Hebrew, ’ehad. This word is used in Deuteronomy 6:4 for describing God, and also describes the union of Adam and Eve in Genesis 2:24.

    It is closely identified with yahad “to be united” and with ro’sh “first head,” especially in connection with the “first day” of the month (Gen 8:13). It stresses unity while recognizing diversity with that oneness. ―TWOT p. 30

    Zechariah uses this same word later in the same section to describe one Lord, and His name as one, which then takes on the connotation of singular as in only. So interpreting ’ehad as unique is to take it in the sense of only. However, in the greater context of the Day of the Lord as unfolds here in this commentary, as a day of diverse elements united in one, actually describes the true sense of ’ehad. This is one day that is divided between an eerie calm and a bewildering aftermath yet united; it is all the Day of the Lord.

    The unknown feature of the Day of the Lord from Zechariah is repeated by Jesus:

    Mt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

    This aspect also marries with the first century Judaic idiom for Rosh ha-Shannah as the “unknown day.” The arrival of this ‘appointed time’ with God was problematic; it was the only ‘appointed time’ (festival) which was coincidental with the sighting of the new moon. All other festivals happen with the full moon, or at a set time after the new moon, so they could be calculated. Furthermore, the requirement to be sighted could be hampered by weather conditions even in an arid region like Israel. Therefore, even being able to know when the new moon was to arrive, still didn’t confer absolute certainty about the ability of the Priests to announce Rosh ha-Shannah. So too, the Day of the Lord, while being able to be anticipated, will not be known until the initial earthquake and sun/moon/star signs which precede it happen.

    What cements this passage in Zechariah as a Day of the Lord is two-fold. First, it has the element of darkness that is so much a part of the Day of the Lord. The second is the aspect of knowledge by God of this day. As an additional bit of information, God reveals through the Prophet the condition of temperature here that is not specified in other end-time prophecy concerning this day. With an adjudication of being part of the Day of the Lord, this attribute can be added in to describe that day as it opens.

    The Day of the Lord starts with a great earthquake. Then, in an unprecedented meteorological event, the earth is clothed in clouds so thick it is actually dark. Joel echoes this sequence of events as happening before the Lord appears:

    Joel 2:31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

    This passage here in Joel with the sun/moon/star event is explicitly tied to the Day of the Lord by the express language that it is the Day of the Lord. Not only will this day have this specific and unique sign associated with it, but the other elements of Joel 2, the advance of the Lord as the commander with His army in action. Furthermore, Joel agrees with the application of Ezekiel 32:7 to this day as well, noting it is a day of clouds in the opening in verse 2:2 followed by fire devouring the land before the advancing army. This judgment destruction is delayed in the opening of the sixth Seal in Revelation 7:3 until the army is properly sealed themselves.

    Up until this point on Earth, there are several reactions to the day. On the one hand, while activity may pause, it certainly does not stop. When the day comes and it is recognized as not being a natural day, expect an interruption of the normal flow of life. There are two parts to the reaction. One is to pause then continue. The other is to hide and wait for it to pass. Jesus in speaking about this time of His coming said people would be working, preparing meals and sleeping. On the other hand, in Revelation, John writes the words of the Messiah and says people of all types will be hiding in fear of the coming of the Lord.

    The reason for saying this, and the source of a mistake in timing God’s Wrath comes from this passage in Revelation:

    Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?"

    How do the wicked know God is coming for them? They were told by the Three Angels who not only complete the Gospel message, but also impart a stern warning to the world who has accepted the Mark of the Beast and worshipped its abominable image. This information can be found in the detailed parallel account of the one ‘seven’ in Revelation chapters 13-17 before the Harvest. The error comes in saying this is where God’s Wrath begins as will be explained.

    The adjective ‘every’ used in Revelation 6:15 describing those who are hiding modifies a definite noun two times with slave and free. Generally, this section is interpreted as being inclusive of all since a person would be either one or the other, however, another definition exists that can solve the dichotomy of why some are working and sleeping in Jesus’ example. The word, pa'" meaning each or all, can imply the whole in one sense, or it can be distributive as in whoever, or all possible ―TDNT p 795. In the second case, it can indicate that those who hid themselves were of all classes of individuals.

    To the first group, the ones who pause and then continue, and from whom one is taken to receive their inheritance; represent God’s Elect. They are the ones who have waited until their redemption has drawn nigh and have not abandoned their faith. They will be going about their normal course of living, working, preparing meals and sleeping, but not the second group.

    This group, who are left to burn in this world, as described in Revelation; are the rulers, rich and powerful of this world foremost has gone into hiding. They have gone to fortified places like what exists outside Washington D.C. in order to save their lives. Rather than looking for their redemption drawing nigh, they are fearful of seeing the Lord. Rather than meet justice at His hand, they wish to be crushed by the impersonal forces and rock of the Earth. They understand what is coming, and John records their cry:

    "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

    Now, as a case study in Biblical truth, more than one commentary has made a great deal of the first usage by John in Revelation of wrath here in verse 6:16. Because the word ‘wrath’ occurs here first, and taking the Bible as always being true, they reach the conclusion that this is indeed where God’s Wrath commences. While the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and truth is indeed found within it, however, the question remains: Does the Wrath of God begin at this moment?

    No. While the author is known, John, and the audience here being addressed is the world, the ones that are speaking are those who will be judged by God on the Earth. They have not gotten God right up until this time, and they are going to miss out on being saved in the last possible instance in which Jesus does save: the Harvest. The Bible is true, they do say what John quotes, but the speakers in this case are just as mistaken as they are about God. John is recording their error truthfully though.

    Where then do these wicked people get the idea that God is coming for them? They know their time is up because from the parallel account of the one ‘seven’ in Revelation 13-16, an Angel of the Lord has proclaimed it! The first Angel says to the whole world in part:

    “…because the hour of his judgment has come.” –Rev 14:7

    While this is the Day of the Lord, and God’s Wrath is about to come, it is not coming at that precise moment. So the wicked, who do not love God, understand Him, nor believe anything about the prophecy of the end-times are not correct, but they quake in fear because they heard what was about to befall them. They know they are going to be judged by God because they know they don’t believe in Jesus. They are convicted already in their hearts, and so they know the judgment which is coming is for them.

    So it matters little if the word John uses is the word for the Wrath of God. God’s Wrath is not what is coming next, but it is still to come. For the Christian though, the words of the prophet apply:

    JER 10:2 This is what the LORD says:
    "Do not learn the ways of the nations
    or be terrified by signs in the sky,
    though the nations are terrified by them.

    Furthermore, the time that these people are making their declaration is during the opening of the sixth Seal. The Scroll cannot be opened and the decrees of God cannot be read until all the Seals have been opened. From Kings down to slaves, great and small, they all alike have jumped the gun. Their judgment is coming, but just not yet. In the context of the times, while the Day of the Lord has a duality to it, that Wrath will not immediately next at that time, however, it is coming nevertheless and it will last longer than that day as well.

    In the timeline of the Day of the Lord, the first identifiable time marker in Rev 6:12 was the darkening of the sun by a covering up by clouds at noon. This miraculous phenomenon could occur at every locale at noon by a progressive covering, starting perhaps at the center of the earth for God’s focus: Jerusalem. The clamor this enveloping darkness would raise would be on every 24-hour news telecast and eager reporters would chronicle the spread of the clouds and by doing so they would heighten the ensuing panic. Questions will be asked: ‘What does this all mean?’ And at some gut-level, people will be poised for something dreadful to occur. This is the time in which leaders will escape to their apocalypse hiding spot; the President will be bunkered in the underground complex by Camp David in the Catoctin Mountains of Maryland.

    The dictates of sun, moon and star means this Day of the Lord so far has progressed from day into night, though the differentiation may be very subtle due to the darkening. The Bible as God’s Word has some interesting verses and all indications given to us align with the hour being late. If as Paul says, God’s Law can be found written in the heart of man in his intrinsic sense of morality, then there is parallel in not only in popular sayings of ‘the calm before the storm’ and ‘the eleventh hour’ but also in the universal notion of calamity from beyond man’s capacity in doomsday scenarios. For the moon to be viewed reddened, two things must occur: one, the cloud cover must dissipate, and two, nightfall will have happened. This could occur on the same day as the darkening. The stars being viewable means the evening must go beyond twilight. This brings in an interesting aspect of the scrolling. From Zechariah’s unique day, verse 14:7 ends with these words:

    When evening comes, there will be light.

    This marks the second miraculous juxtaposition of light and dark now in the opposite. It was the brightest time of the day when God made the sun dark, now at night, it is light. This occurs with the scrolling of the sky. The scrolling of the sky may be viewed as dimensional rift whereby the three dimensional ‘heavens’ normally viewed would be rolled aside to reveal the realm of Heaven: the natural world giving way for the super-natural, or beyond this natural world.

    The command to the Christian is to watch. Jesus commands us to remain faithful. He gives the Christian the means to know when the time is ripe, though no one will know the day, and when that day arrives, no one will know the hour. The general sequence of events allows the Christian to prepare for a time when those in rebellion against God oppress those that follow Christ, and ultimately persecute them until, if God had not shortened those days; none would be left. But Victory is not far off, and can be found as the sky scrolls back.

    The day advances into night, but is not a night as would normally take place. The moon is darkened or if visible is reddish like an eclipsed moon. Going to the least light, the stars, has them falling. In Isaiah’s account, they do so with the next event: the scrolling of the sky.

    Isaiah 34:4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

    Which is matched by Revelation 6:14

    The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up…

    There are only two instances in the Bible that describes the sky being scrolled; here in Isaiah and in Revelation with the opening of the sixth Seal. Because the scrolling in the sixth Seal comes at the end of this age and Gabriel indicated to Daniel that prophecy will be completed with the coming of the Messiah with the seventy ‘sevens,’ there is no basis to put Isaiah’s scrolling as a separate event apart from the Day of the Lord. Likewise, there are only four instances of falling stars, this in Isaiah, two in the Synoptic Gospel accounts from the Olivet Discourse, and last in the section in Revelation with the sixth Seal. (Other stars falling concern allegorical usage to describe Satan’s fall as noted from the discussion previously in chapter 4 of this book from Revelation chapter 12 in conjunction with Luke 10:18.) Three of these are firmly linked to the same sun/moon/star event. Therefore, like with the scrolling of the sky, the falling stars describe a unique event happening at the end of the age on the Day of the Lord. This passage in Isaiah is also closely linked to Wrath, and specifically to a “day of vengeance,” and that will be shown to be the case in a Pre-Wrath eschatology with the second half of the Day of the Lord.

    The scrolling of the sky is the last celestial manifestation preceding Christ’s parousia. As such, there may well be a connection to this unique, observable event, and a sign which Jesus stated to Him:

    Mt 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

    This sign, which is an observable event so that people will know it comes from God, also happens “in the sky” and it is immediately followed by Jesus, as the Son of Man, the way in which He referred to Himself more than any other idiom in Him Ministry, “coming on the clouds of the sky.” As with the second contrary miracle for a normal day night into day, the scrolling of the sky certainly marks it as the third sign that this Day is from God.
    The suggestion here, (not originally by this author, but by another Christian friend opining about the magnificent show-stopping celestial fireworks accompanying the scrolling of the sky) is that the scrolling of the sky represents a dimensional rift of this three dimensional world from the timeless plane of Heaven.
    With the scrolling of the sky and the cascading of the ‘stars,’ Jesus also says that His Salvation is literally at the door at this point. This analysis labels this second celestial sign as the sign of the Son of Man in the sky. Thus this final sign after the foreboding beginning of the Day of the Lord signals a distinct event and this celestial lightshow precedes Christ’s arrival. Those on the earth around the point of His descent then see the Lord descending as He had gone up. Subsequently, the rest of the earth sees Him covering the earth on the clouds.

    The sky scrolls to reveal Jesus descending with a celestial firestorm of falling stars. As He touches down as He left, the second earthquake of Revelation 6:14 ensues. Since Jesus has some work to do on the Earth and beyond the natural world, the scrolling does not have to continue, but could pause. Indeed, other events are ordered before Jesus gathers the Elect from the corners of the Earth which necessitate a pause at this juncture. However, when He comes on the clouds, the scrolling of the sky would continue when the Lord arises to the clouds with the resurrected souls from Paradise. If the scrolling were to proceed from east to west not only would each time zone be able to have the sky turn light at night, but it would be a literal fulfillment to Jesus’ words describing His parousia being like lightening flashing in the east unto the west. Thus suggested as a best “fit” looking forward to Christ covering the earth would see Him from the vantage point of one still standing on the earth as looking up, seeing the sky scroll back from the east and with a host of falling stars, see Christ illuminated on the clouds with all the resurrected souls from Paradise with Him.

    Keeping with a late hour, Jesus gives two parables to the Disciples. One in Matthew, the parable of the ten virgins, has the bridegroom, Jesus, coming after the midnight hour. The other in Mark, concerns the example in 13:35 and states that “you do not know when the owner of the house will come back--whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.” The point here is that the hour is still not known, though a general indication that the day will not be truncated before the moon would normally be visible is supported by all the language used in the Bible, and by Jesus’ parables as well. As a disclaimer, saying this should not offend any that would insist upon a literal know-nothing position which could have the hour coming during the day. Knowing that hour does not come during the normal hours of daylight does not specify which hour the Lord returns.
    Getting back to the order from the sequence of events described with the breaking of the sixth Seal is this:

    REV 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.

    This would be the last element of the Day of the Lord: no wind. In sequence fashion, this happens after the scrolling of the sky. If there would be calm before the storm, then this would be it. No wind would mean there were no pressure gradients, having no Highs nor Lows, and no trade winds. Such a phenomenon is beyond the normal, or, supernatural, and that is the Bible’s claim as well as John records here what Jesus has revealed to him through God. If the entire world would be breathlessly waiting, then what unfolds next will leave it wondering and reeling as every mountain and island has moved.

    The utter joy of the Day of the Lord’s redemption for His people is expressed in Isaiah.

    ISA 60:1 "Arise, shine, for your light has come,
    and the glory of the LORD rises upon you.

    ISA 60:2 See, darkness covers the earth
    and thick darkness is over the peoples,
    but the LORD rises upon you
    and his glory appears over you.

    ISA 60:3 Nations will come to your light,
    and kings to the brightness of your dawn.

    ISA 60:4 "Lift up your eyes and look about you:
    All assemble and come to you;
    your sons come from afar,
    and your daughters are carried on the arm.

    This passage captures the elements of darkness and light and the joy that many will receive as well as the glory unto the Lord when He gathers His Elect.

    In the Seal/Scroll chronology, after the celestial sign identifying the events put into motion by the breaking of the sixth Seal, the Firstfruits of the Harvest are mustered. This will be covered in detail later. Another event, not listed, but logically absent, would be the source for the next event to unfold in the Heavenly scene in which John writes: the Great Multitude.

    Detailed with their description is an explanation by an Elder that the Great Multitude, without number, and John has been extremely diligent in rendering how many are present, have come out of the Great Tribulation. This gives evidence that they were on the earth previous to their appearance here. Furthermore, as John has been describing all he sees in the Third Heaven of the Father’s Presence in Heaven, the fact that he only now notes this mass of people suggests they do not arrive until such a point in time. The conclusion here is that these people represent the result of the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ along with the Rapture of the remaining Elect. At much more than the exceeding great number of Angels, they overwhelmingly outnumber the total number of Jews living on the earth; commonly called the ‘tribulation saints’ and often pinned as the Elect of the Olivet Discourse.

    The rest of the chapter deals with some of the objections and/or difficulties some might have with the description of events listed here from the sixth Seal concerning the Day of the Lord. Further detail, allegories, and explanations about the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Harvest of the remaining Elect are given in chapter eleven.
  14. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    New Zealand
    Still no author given for the book excerpts you post. I seems to not be your writing, Marcus.

    It looks to be a lot of guesswork and conjecture, all built around the wrong idea that the Sixth Seal takes place at the Return.
    For this notion to have any validity, an explanation must to made for how a scroll can be read before all the seals are removed. Also why this theory means the event sequence in Revelation has to be shuffled around.

    Then to say that the Wrath of God and the Lamb does not actually happen at the Sixth Seal, makes for complete confusion and error.

    The author of your post, by the manner of his/her writing would be a respected, learned and wise person. Jesus Himself said: these things are hidden from the learned and wise... so to blindly trust their opinions could be a bad mistake.
  15. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    United States
    papers #1 & 2 click here.

    papers #3 & 4 click here.

    How Many Returns of Christ?

    How many times does Christ actually appear: once or twice? This question has plagued debates between commentaries. Different schools have argued incessantly over this doctrine in eschatology. The Post-Millennial and Amillennial schools teach but one all-inclusive coming of Christ. In this Day of the Lord, all of prophecy is fulfilled down to the separation of the goats and the sheep. They say there is but one resurrection, one judgment, and then everything passes into the new Heaven and new Earth.

    The Pre-Millennial schools vary in their interpretation. The Historical Pre-Millennial school has but one coming sandwiched between the Tribulation and the Millennial. The Post-Tribulation takes this one step farther and states the Tribulation period as being the whole of the seventieth ‘seven’ so in essence preserves the sense of but one second coming. The Pre-Tribulation school differs from the others in having Christ return before the end of this present age. So this last school of eschatology qualifies the Rapture as saying Christ does not actually touch the Earth, but remains on the Cloud. This allays criticism leveled against it by the other schools which are united in saying there is but one return of Christ on the Earth.

    To answer this question, leads to actually questioning the premise by which the number of times the Lord actually sets down upon the Earth has become an issue in the first place. If the premise is a neat transition, then Christ only has to return to restore order: ergo, one return of Christ. This simple view dictates Christ’s return must be decisive and final. However, if the Elect are first removed, and those remaining are largely destined for destruction, then having that take some time in a literal and physical manner would not be outside of the character of God. If revenge is God’s, and God is patient with its coming, then it does not have to last only a moment. Indeed, the very structure of the Seal chronology leading up to the unsealing of the Scroll with the desolations God has decreed written within and without suggests God’s Wrath takes time as the fifth Trumpet alone takes five months.

    Therefore, if Jesus is to return as Isaiah 61:2 says with God’s vengeance, then how many times He touches the Earth is moot. Indeed, it would not matter as a theological point: God is still God and can do as He wishes in fulfillment of God’s plan. Taking a literal view of Scripture as outlined herein has Jesus touching down more than once before the Millennium Kingdom is actually established. If putting various events in a logical order is correct, then there are multiple times the Lord returns before the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth which is announced in Revelation 11:15, and the world moves into the Millennium.

    There can only be one return of Christ when that is defined as Jesus coming back after His Ascension from the Mount of Olives. After He returns, then as shown below, He can do as He needs. For the clear majority of the world, Jesus will be seen returning on the clouds to gather those who are still alive and are left of the Elect: the Church. This observer-true view of Jesus’ return involves no touchdown per se, and the first they see of Him, He is on the clouds with the Living whom have already been resurrected from the grave.

    The principle which can be displayed in the Bible is this:

    Jesus is mobile: once He returns ― He can freely traverse Heaven and Earth.

    Nowhere in the Bible does it dictate that once Jesus returns that He is bound to the Earth. Indeed there is a verse where the Bible suggests Jesus’ mobility after His return. The principle of Jesus’ freedom of mobility between Heaven (the spiritual plane) and Earth is buttressed by two separate parts in the Bible where Christ has demonstrated He is able to transcend dimensions and boundaries in the spiritual plane and a third which points to mobility in the future:.

    1. First is in death. When Jesus was on the cross He told the thief on His right that they would be in Paradise that day. Jesus had previously given us the only glimpse we have into the afterlife with Paradise in Luke 16:19-31 about in the story (not a parable) of the beggar Lazarus. However, in 1st Peter 3, Jesus is not bound to only Paradise, but goes to visit spirits imprisoned from the time of Noah. Their imprisonment suggests they are not in Abraham’s bosom or enjoy any rest in death. These spirits may very well be in the abyss between Paradise and Hades as Jesus relates the afterlife in the Bible.

    2. Secondly, Jesus makes three appearances to the Apostles as revealed in John. Additionally, Jesus appears and instantaneously disappears to others. He makes His final appearance to many on top of the Mount of Olives. All these separate “returns” happen after His Resurrection. Here Jesus demonstrates His ability to traverse Heaven and Earth at will so as to establish witnesses which proves His Resurrection.

    3. In the prophecy of Revelation 14:4, we find the 144,000 go wherever Jesus goes. This certainly suggests Jesus is mobile. With His mobility in the grave between His death on the Cross and His Resurrection, and the several times He made an appearance on Earth after His Resurrection; arguably Jesus can be highly mobile, traveling between dimensions of Heaven and Earth as need be.

    When looking at the activities Jesus performs, they differ significantly as to location, action and purpose. Furthermore, the actions described take time. In the case of the final battle of the one ‘seven’ and Jesus’ revealing to the Remnant, according to the Man in Linen from Daniel 12:11 & 12, there are two additional time periods between the last of the one ‘seven’ and the Millennium.

    1. As will be shown in the next section: upon His return, Jesus touches down on the Mount of Olives. This correlates to the second earthquake of the sixth Seal. Later on the Day of the Lord, Jesus gathers those who are still alive and are left ― the Elect (the last of the Church) from the clouds (with the majority of the Elect who have been just resurrected from Paradise). These events are associated with the Day of the Lord because of the signature Sun/moon/star event. This half of the Day of the Lord is pointed at the Elect, which, during the Church Age, is synonymous with the Church. However, those selected by God can include Old Testament Saints who believed in the Lord.

    2. Also on the Day of the Lord, other images in Old Testament prophecy show the Lord (Jesus) trampling out His Wrath upon the Land (Israel). This is the other half of the Day of the Lord pointed at unbelieving Israel. There are battles on this Day as well, one centered around Jerusalem and another south of the Holy City in the Valley of Decision. In these battles, Jesus takes on the forces of the King of the North. In addition, an army is pictured with Jesus. In Ezekiel 9, the Lord is pictured in the Temple and sends six soldiers out to kill men, women, and children without pity or compassion. The reason for this cleansing is to rid Israel of idolatry and prepare it as an anvil upon which to smash the nations.

    3. At the end of the one ‘seven’ a different battle is fought in Armageddon, which as a name, places this battlefield in the hill country of Ephraim. In Revelation 19, Jesus is pictured again with His Army about to go forth from the Heavenly realm. This battle is the final one where Jesus wipes out the assembled nations of North, South, and East and the two main antagonists, the anti-Christ and the False Prophet are captured alive. While the action is similar to the second half of the Day of the Lord, this battle in another location and the purpose has changed as well. This time, God directs His Wrath at the Nations. So Israel has already been cleansed and stands ready as a platform upon which to smash the nations.

    4. Some seventy-five days later (after the 30 and 45 day periods as laid out by the Man in Linen in Daniel) Jesus appears to the assembled Remnant of Israel as the Kingly Messiah. At that time, He is revealed to them as the Servant Messiah they had previously pierced (and rejected) in the person of Jesus. This then begins the earthly reign of Jesus and thus a new time in man’s existence comes to be: the Millennium. During that time, Jesus will be a present reality upon the Earth. The resulting new paradigm removes faith as a requirement for Salvation because now God can be proved by direct, observable evidence. Prophecy will no longer be necessary when the Lord is present; with Jesus’ anointing as King, Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled in its entirety.

    These four distinct appearances according to their function which show Jesus acting in different capacities do not include His interaction to lead the Remnant during the second half of the one ‘seven.’ Isaiah documents that the Lord will go before those from Judea and Jerusalem who flee, guide them, and act as a rear guard protecting them, and that they will rely upon the Lord, even though they do not know His true identity until He is unveiled at the beginning of the Millennium, being blind until then (Isa 10:20, 42:16, 52:12).

    Scripture does not absolutely dictate that only with the very instance of Christ’s return that He must establish His Millennial peace in one fell swoop. Rather, the surety of the anti-Christ’s destruction and the establishment of God’s Kingdom will be realized after a very long absence. Allowing for different visitations after His return to accomplish that in fullness cannot be ruled out. Elements of God’s Wrath take time in order to be felt in their entirety. Indeed, looking at the various and sundry events associated with Jesus, time must be allowed to pass between them. Despite any disagreement on the timing of the Rapture, those with a millennial bent must acknowledge that between the end of the one ‘seven’ and the beginning of the Millennium, there must be separate instances where Jesus appears on the earth because of the 30 and 45 day periods.

    Therefore, Christ returns but once: on the Day of the Lord, and as Isaiah 52:8 and Revelation 1:7 dictate, everyone will see Him. However, how many times Jesus subsequently alights upon the Earth before establishing the Millennium is determined only by God’s plan of vengeance, the preservation of the Remnant Jews, and Jesus’ part in both until the Millennium Kingdom is established.

    How Many Times Does Jesus "Come"?

    In the Olivet discourse, we have two instances of Jesus’ coming. The first has already been identified as associated with the rapture, Matthew 24:30b; “They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.” The verse in 24:30b is a direct reference to the second coming of Christ whereby he rides upon the clouds at the point that Paul describes in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, “After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”

    The second occurs after a warning to believers to watch and two parables that point back to the same theme of being prepared at all times for Christ’s return. Matthew 25:31 starts out a passage relating to the story about separating sheep from goats. The question naturally arises, are these comings as in the lexical use of the verb to come, the same event?

    MT 24:30b They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

    Coming here is in the Greek present tense, with the middle voice as part of the participle. “The present tense usually denotes continuous kind of action. It shows 'action in progress' or 'a state of persistence.' The Middle Voice in Greek shows the subject acting in his own interest or on his own behalf, or participating in the results of the verbal action. In overly simplistic terms, sometimes the middle form of the verb could be translated as "the performer of the action actually acting upon himself" (reflexive action). A participle is considered a "verbal adjective". It is often a word that ends with an "-ing" in English (such as "speaking," "having," or "seeing").”—Greek website; LKGNT

    MT 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

    Here comes is in aorist tense and is in the subjective mood. “The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense. 'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. The subjunctive mood indicates probability or objective possibility. The action of the verb will possibly happen, depending on certain objective factors or circumstances. It is oftentimes used in conditional statements (i.e. 'If...then...' clauses) or in purpose clauses. However if the subjunctive mood is used in a purpose or result clause, then the action should not be thought of as a possible result, but should be viewed as a definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action.”— Greek website; LKGNT

    Contrasting the two uses of 'come', finds a distinction in the Greek to convey the meaning Jesus spoke in either Hebrew or the common Aramaic. In the first instance, we have an active arrival, showing Jesus as the Son of Man (His most used expression for Himself, and a phrase used extensively in Ezekiel.) as a participant involved in the process of coming, and that coming is related to Him. The second coming is not of the first nature, but as a summary occurrence, describes a final condition, rather than an active process. A minor word study indicates these two usages of come are not describing the same event.

    As a time, some confusion erupts if the “coming” of Jesus in His glory is read as when He comes on the clouds. A second differentiation between Mt 24:30 and Mt 25:31 looks at how the present tense coming of Jesus on the clouds differs from the second mention because here Jesus is on His Throne. While every time Jesus comes will be in His glory because He is glorious, the time He comes on His Throne may be delineated by this verse:

    MT 19:28 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

    Here Jesus sits on His Throne at the renewal of all things. This differs from the devastation which will follow the Rapture as God’s Wrath is about to go forth. Furthermore, the twelve Apostles (Judas having been replaced by Matthias) will judge the twelve tribes. As a condition of judging first requires the Apostles to be in Heaven, and since they did not rise with Jesus either at His Resurrection or His Ascension; then their arrival in Heaven will not be until Jesus returns for them as He said He would in John 14:2-3.

    When the Apostles are raised to life, they, like the rest of the Church, much give an account of himself. In Revelation 11:18, the Elders say:
    The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
    and your saints and those who reverence your name,
    both small and great--

    Like the marriage analogy to the Rapture, the Bride Church has its unveiling. After the Woes, the dead, now resurrected are judged, and being not guilty of sin by the blood of Christ Jesus, are rewarded.

    So as a condition of judging, the Apostles must first give an account for themselves. As the tribes of Israel are not taken up on the Day of the Lord, but only a third survive the one ‘seven,’ they do not participate in the first Resurrection. They are called up until the universal resurrection of both the living and the dead of John 5:28-29. So the time of the renewal of all things, when the Apostles will judge the twelve tribes; is after the Millennium. Likewise, the differentiation between Jesus on the clouds versus being seated on His Throne is the difference between the Rapture and the Great White Throne Judgment at the conclusion of all after the Millennium is over. The judgment for the Jews on Judgment Day, not the Day of the Lord, is buttressed by Jesus’ warning to the Pharisees in Matthew 12:36.

    A third differentiation is the description of the events that occur in between when Jesus comes on the clouds versus when everyone is brought before His Throne.

    MT 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

    In the first instance, the elect are gathered. The elect as delineated before are the believers in the world. These correspond to those in Daniel that are in the book of life. As such, all of these are going to be in Heaven.

    MT 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

    In the second instance, it is not the elect that are before Christ, but all nations. And Christ will separate them into two groups, one destined for life, and the other for eternal damnation. The ultimate consequence for the sheep and goats is revealed at the conclusion of the Olivet discourse.

    MT 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

    When speaking of the eternal punishment, a distinction must be made between judging in the sense of adjudicating, and of punishment. The first was sealed nearly 2000 years ago before as revealed in John 16:8-10:
    8 When he [the Counselor] comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

    The first sense of judging is to provide a verdict, as when a jury renders a decision of guilty or not guilty. The second sense of judging has to do with punishment, and in our legal analogy would be akin to the Judge handing down the sentence for those found guilty. Further, we can find Biblical examples in Revelation where earthly punishment is described as a judgment of God in Rev 16:4-5 and in the destruction of the New Babylon in Rev 18:20. But no instance of judging in the heavenly realm is associated with the Tribulation period. There is a reference in Revelation that describes a similar event, and it is describing a punishment in the heavenly sense, because it includes the destruction of death and Hades as well and so carries it beyond any earthly meaning.

    REV 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Here the conditional statement hinges on the last verse on if their name is found in the book of life. Like the wording in the Olivet discourse with all nations, here it is the dead. There is no wording that would indicate that dead is being used figuratively as in spiritually dead, but that these dead are inclusive, both great and small. Although John’s account does not state explicitly that any of the dead pass into life, neither does it state that all are thrown into the fire, but only those that fail the test. This suggests that some do. This is a common construct in the Greek of an “if-then” statement. It is not explicitly said but the corollary exists then that “if not-then not.” Thus we have a parallel account to match Jesus’ description of the separation of the sheep from the goats.

    The first coming aligns with the events surrounding the Great Tribulation when the Day of the Lord takes place. The Day of the Lord marks the end of the Church age, and the beginning of the end of the rule of man. We know after the statue is destroyed, that Christ begins His millennium reign on Earth. But it is also recorded in Revelation that reign culminates with Satan bringing forth one last war upon the Lamb. It is after this second confrontation that Evil is destroyed. At that time, more than a thousand years hence, as John describes figuratively in Rev 20:11, God’s creation is discarded, and a final disposition is made. It is at this time that Jesus comes into His Glory, that all those that were not raised at the rapture are judged, as well as all those that lived under Christ’s reign during the millennium. Thus, some of the latter do believe, and they will be counted as sheep. Next in Rev 21:16, a new creation awaits those found in the book of Life for eternity. This certainly qualifies as the time of renewal, when God creates a whole new universe again.

    Two additional aspects give evidence for this treatment. The first is the division of the discourse itself. The second has to do with the audience. In between the two instances where we studied come, is a description of the rapture, which starts at 24:30b, and subsequent warnings stopping at 24:44. Next Jesus illustrates the watchfulness we should have as a servant and two parables. These illustrations act as warnings to the elect; Jesus is instructing us as to how we are to conduct ourselves. They are reflective back to the time before the Rapture.

    But once the Rapture occurs, the elect are removed from the Earth. They are before the Lamb and are taken out of the world. In a later chapter, the disposition of those reigning will Christ during this time will be examined. However, the world continues under the iron rod of Christ. It is not until after the millennium period, that we find those written in the book of Life having any mention. Because the elect are with Christ, their status is unchanging during this period. Thus any prophetic detail after the Tribulation has little bearing on them until the end of the Millennium.

    Thus both the division of the discourse matches the treatment of God’s people. To jump to a time when as verse 25:31 opens with having a span of a thousand years is quite in keeping with a God of gaps. The gathering is the last time the Elect will see the “world.” The next time the Elect see the “world” it is when the second resurrection happens and all are brought forth: the righteous from the Millennium (so that all of Israel will be saved) and the wicked from all time. These two “comings” represent the bookends of the Elect's involvement with the world. Having a gap of the Millennium until the Bema Judgment is also totally in line with Jesus’ promise to his disciples, who will be taken up at the first Resurrection and who will also be judged – give an account of their lives – is that they will also judge the twelve tribes. First they must be judged (given crowns) before they can judge.
  16. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Until you give us the provenance and the author of your quotes, I won't study it.
    Maybe it is your effort? I do see a number of spelling and grammar mistakes!

    Still no qualms about shuffling the Revelation sequence? I take Rev 22:19 VERY seriously.
  17. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    Ah, you won't "study it"? You're breaking my heart keras... not really. But you read it enough to find spelling and grammar mistakes? LOL!

    papers #1 & 2 - click here

    papers #3 & 4 - click here

    papers #5 & 6 - click here


    Jesus has been making an abode for the Church since He ascended into Heaven. The very words Jesus cites in John 14 refers to the first century Jewish wedding practice and ties in with the Church being the Bride of Christ in figurative fashion. One side-by-side comparison between the wedding ritual and Christ’s two Advents is in Appendix C. In conjunction with that ritual being a figurative example for looking at the Rapture, the predominant view does not allow Jesus to touch down before taking the Church back to Heaven, just as the Groom doesn’t come into the house of the Bride. However, analogies and figurative illustrations of reality need not take precedence over actual events just as Paul says the Festivals are a shadow of things to come but the reality is found in Jesus.

    In keeping with Paul’s reasoning to prevent straight-jacketing eschatology, there are two distinct references for demanding Christ touch down on the Earth before gathering the Elect:

    • The first reference hails from Christ’s Ascension as written in Acts chapter 1.
    • The second reference stems from the second great earthquake in the general timeline given with the opening of the sixth Seal backed up with specific prophecy in Zechariah.

    In the first reference, Jesus was taken up from the Mount Olives, and the angels say Jesus will return in the very same way. As a first event of the Lord in coming after those who are still alive and are left, the position here is that Christ touches down on the Mount of Olives splitting it in two. The interesting point here is that this in turn leads to a plethora of Old Testament passages which describe the Lord on Mount Zion, a bare hill top. If Jesus’ return as indicated in the Olivet Discourse is on the Day of the Lord, then events surrounding the Day of the Lord which involve a mountain top become significant to understanding the events of that day.

    AC 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
    AC 1:10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
    AC 1:12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day's walk from the city.

    The second reference in the Seal chronology acts as a general order for the events which take place on the Day of the Lord. Specifically, the sixth Seal, which contains the sun/moon/star sign of the Day of the Lord, reveals an order which may allow for the some of the diverse Old Testament references to be framed within a whole. At this point, the chronology has only gone up to the fourth physical manifestation: the second great Earthquake. Retracing the sequence of events about the Day of the Lord the order indicates the scrolling of the sky as the sign of the Son of Man follows with a great earthquake:

    REV 6:14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

    The fourth event to be set in sequence marries the multiple account prophesized by the Angels to the Apostles in Acts with a source for an earthquake in accordance with the first reference for saying Christ touches down on the Mount of Olives: Zechariah.

    ZEC 14:4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

    Does the splitting of the Mount of Olives east to west with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south allow for every mountain and island (which are, after all, just mountains above the sea floor) to be moved? If nothing else, the Indian Ocean earthquake of 2004 which caused the Christmas tsunami has shown that one earthquake can actually displace every reference on earth from its previous position on the earth. The movement of plates affects more than just the immediate fault, and this earthquake, like the one that caused the tsunami will literally ring the earth like a bell (Sumatra Quake Shook Earth’s Total Surface by Randolph E. Schmid, Associated Press Writer; May 19, 2005).

    While Zechariah, like Isaiah, sprinkles visions without regard to a strict overall linear timeframe, this verse is set in an end-time passage. In chapter 14 verses 3 through 7, Zechariah describes various aspects of the Day of the Lord. Especially telling of this particular Day is the wording of the uniqueness of this day, so much so that the even the wicked will know something is afoot.

    The language Zechariah uses in describing this unique day of 14:7 also allows for a unification of days into one. Repeating some word study from the last section, the word for unique, ’ehad is closely identified with yahad “to be united.” The author in the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament associates this word with ro’sh, the “first head,” which is in connection with the “first day” of the month and he says it stresses unity while recognizing diversity with that oneness.

    This rationale supporting Christ’s touchdown on the Mount Olives is associated with the great earthquake He causes. This earth-changing geological cataclysm will alter the Earth’s topography just as the earthquakes in the Indian ocean of December 2004 had ramifications far beyond the fault shift. As Zechariah points out, the splitting of the Mount of Olives has application for another select people of God, the remnant God will save through the second half of the seventieth ‘seven.’

    ZEC 14:5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

    Notice that Zechariah has the sequence of events in the same order as presented in the Seal chronology of Revelation. After the people flee, Jesus comes with “all the holy ones” with Him. In the Seal account, the next event which Jesus causes is the sealing of the 144,000. The role they play will be laid out in a following section, but the words here might explain why they flee: they are literally running away from danger: there is going to be a fierce battle ensuing which will engulf Jerusalem.

    Zechariah details an event which is not in the Seal chronology. As Revelation is addressed for the Church, events directed toward Israel are not its subject. For that, the Old Testament Prophets were used to foretell what would happen to Israel on the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is completely different than for the Church versus what will happen to Israel just as Paul juxtaposed the different ends for the Roman victory parade with its army and its captives. And as he said in Romans 2:9, first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

    Harkening back to the Olivet Discourse, on the eve of midpoint of the seventieth ‘seven,’ those Jews in Judea were to flee when they saw the army encamped around Jerusalem and/or the abomination, the talking statue of the anti-Christ which is quickly set up in the Temple. Now on the Day of the Lord, when He touches down, some people of Jerusalem will flee before the Lord, and they will flee to the east. God will lead them as Isaiah says in the context of a day of Wrath:

    ISA 42:16 I will lead the blind by ways they have not known,
    along unfamiliar paths I will guide them;
    I will turn the darkness into light before them
    and make the rough places smooth.
    These are the things I will do;
    I will not forsake them.

    They are blind because they do not yet believe in Christ. They still have the veil of Moses before them and they cannot see the truth. This veil will be lifted when they come into the Millennium as Zechariah prophesizes and look upon the One they have pierced. God will lead them as prophesized in parallel account within Revelation 12:14:

    The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.

    The distance between Jerusalem and the Mount Olives is a Sabbath Day’s walk or about 1100 meters. It will require some minutes to traverse this distance, with a person being able to walk a mile (about 1600 meters) in about 20 minutes at a good pace. Allowing for the confusion and panic, it may take half an hour for this portion of the remnant that will be called out of Jerusalem (ostensibly to join those who fled from Judea) to make it through the valley the earthquake has created and to move onto safety.

    Jesus’ touchdown on the Mount of Olives satisfies in mirror image the prophetic words of the Angels in Acts. As shown from Zechariah, this touchdown produces a large earthquake which displaces a sizeable volume of earth which would then qualify as a great earthquake. This then would satisfy the prophecy contained in the fourth physical manifestations on the earth and in the sky in the Seal account which orders the signs which take place on the Day of the Lord. Two events are ordered after these four signs, and they come after the touchdown of Jesus in the sequence of events on the Day of the Lord. Still there are other elements which have to be woven into the sequence of events dictated by the Revelation account of the Seals.

    In the parallel account of Revelation chapters 13-16 inclusive, another picture emerges which acts like a multiple account to Zechariah: Jesus is standing with the 144,000 on Mount Zion.

    REV 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads

    The placement of Mount Zion seems to contradict Zechariah’s prophetic words and the witness of the angels in Acts. However, as a place, Mount Zion is less specific than the Mount of Olives, saying Holy Mountain, or listing the Temple Mount as the actual location for the Lamb to stand. While Mount Zion is closely associated in the Bible with Jerusalem as the place of God’s habitation, the Old Testament makes a distinction between Jerusalem and Mount Zion (1Ki 19:31; Isa 10:12, 24:23, 37:32; and Joel 2:32). An interesting contrast within the parallel account of Revelation 13-16 juxtaposes the dragon standing on the shore of the Sea, while the Lamb stands upon the mountain of Zion. In poetic fashion, John could be illustrating the difference between the nations represented by the beast and Israel, being that God intends to smash the former against the latter, as is recorded in Zechariah:
    ZEC 12:3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.

    The Expositor’s Bible Commentary has this to say about the location of Mount Zion in Revelation 14:1:

    Mount Zion may refer to the hilly area in southeast Jerusalem, the temple mount, the whole city of Jerusalem, or, as in postexilic days, the whole land of Judah and the whole Israelite nation (ZPEB, 5:1063-65). In the prophetic tradition, Zion came to symbolize the place where the Messiah would gather to himself a great company of the redeemed.

    This would preserve the ambiguity of Zion as being closely related to Jerusalem but not quite one and the same. Having the gathering occur on the Mount of Olives just to the East of Jerusalem would fulfill a couple of the possible definitions of Mount Zion given by the commentaries as far as a pointing to a location. If Mount Zion symbolizes the future Kingdom of the Lord, then wherever He assembles His flock would suffice as that locale.
    On the other hand, the Bible goes further than that in saying what Mount Zion is. The author in Hebrews writes:

    HEB 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God.

    In the sense that Mount Zion is one of the hills that Jerusalem is built on as noted by the Expositor’ Bible Commentary with this passage and is noted also with Revelation 14:1 as delineated above, the author in Hebrews suggests a more figurative usage. This Mount Zion translates to the Heavenly Jerusalem. Contrasting this mountain with Mount Sinai as with Moses, the usage of Mount Zion indicates a mountain that cannot be touched in Hebrews 12:18.

    While in Zechariah Jesus alights upon the Mount of Olives specifically, some dichotomy exists to identifying Revelation 14:1 with it. However, as a source for the great earthquake of the sixth Seal which is followed by the sealing of the 144,000 —having the 144,000 with Jesus on Mount Zion suggests they are one and the same despite the competing verses. Thus, the Mount of Olives as prophesized by Zechariah and the angels in Acts as the place where Jesus first touches down to commence the gathering remains the best statement to pinpoint His return.

    Does Christ actually touch down on the Earth on the Day of the Lord which has the resurrection of the living so closely associated with it? According to all the Day of the Lord prophecy, the answer is a resounding yes. As the Day of the Lord is a pinnacle of end-time prophecy (because with the return of the Lord all will set right) being monumental enough to move mountains and split the earth magnifies that Day and brings Glory to Christ.

    The Day of the Lord as the
    Fulfillment of Rosh ha-Shanah

    The duality continues from the contrast of opposites studied in the previous section with the Day of the Lord. So in the greater sense, as the Day of the Lord starts out normally and quickly changes at noon, and only to change again in the evening when normally it would be dark it now becomes light; one half of the Day of the Lord is dedicated to those selected by God while the other half typifies the Wrath of God upon the unrepentant sinners of the world and especially upon the nation of Israel.

    This breakdown in chronology leads to two basic questions. First, if the sun/moon/star event starts at noon on one day and goes into the evening, and the apocalyptic events detailed in the Old Testament have yet to come to the forefront, then this would necessarily take the Day of the Lord into more than just a single day. This then asks the question: Is this stretching the meaning of Day past what it has been understood to be?

    A parallel to the Day of the Lord can be drawn from Rosh ha-Shanah of the Jewish festivals. As Christ fulfilled the Spring Festivals in order with Passover and the Pentecost, or Feast of Firstfruits, what remains are the Fall Festivals to be fulfilled. The first is Rosh Hashanah as part of the Feast of the Trumpets. It is two days long and occurs on the traditional New Year of Creation on 1 and 2 Tishri. The Feast of the Firstfruits and the Feast of the Trumpets share a characteristic. Both use the shofar, the ram’s horn. Pentecost uses the right horn, and Rosh Hashanah uses the left horn of a ram. This second horn is also called the Last Trumpet as it begins a series of days for Israel to meet with God and has overtones to resurrection.

    This fact is important in determining how the Bible terms Jesus’ return. Paul is the only author to mention that Christ returns at the Last Trumpet. Understanding how he uses this term can prevent a misapplication of the Seal chronology whereby Jesus is then said to only come at the seventh Trumpet call because it is “last” of the numbered Trumpets revealed by God through Jesus to John.

    Paul did not have John’s writing at hand by any reasonable estimation of comparative dates for his Epistles and John’s book of Revelation. To say as some do that Paul meant the seventh Trumpet begs the question how Paul could have inferred what he did not actually know. Now Paul was a trained Pharisee of the Temple. As such, he would have known the ritual worship system surrounding the Holy Days. The fact that Paul happens to peg Jesus’ arrival to a named trumpet associated with those observances must be taken into account when arguing on the timing of Christ’s parousia vis-à-vis the one ‘seven.’

    Thus Paul may be pointing not to Christ’s entry into the fray with the final battle which will be part of the third Woe - but to the Festivals as a type of plan for the end-times for the Church and Israel. If it is understood that the Last Trumpet is actually the first of a series of Trumpets which can have varied meanings and sources, then the nature of Christ’s parousia may be seen as the first in a series of events which will ultimately end with the reunification, the atonement of God’s chosen people in the nation of Israel with their Messiah King. Overall, nothing in the sequence of the Festivals conflicts with the sequence-of-events analysis provided in this commentary. Indeed, it is offered as an additional bit of evidence to support a Pre-Wrath Rapture.

    Paul’s writing to the Colossians provides an additional Biblical reference for equating Rosh ha-Shanah to the Day of the Lord. Just as laws customs and even the dimensions of the Temple are shadows of the Heavenly realm, the festivals foreshadow what is to come. Paul writes in conjunction with the freedom Christians have in daily living:

    COL 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

    If Rosh Hashanah foreshadows the things to come, and Christ is the reality and fulfillment of that, then allowing for two days, united around the first day of the month is supported in the Scripture and in this case, Jewish custom. Just as the Passover spoke of a future time when the Seder meal would be made applicable to the freedom from the slavery of sin Christ Jesus presents, the two days of Rosh Hashanah can speak to the unification of two days in conjunction with the Day of the Lord.

    Other principles supporting placing two days of juxtaposition where there are wildly different outcomes in the order given as Salvation for the Elect and then Wrath are:

    • The parable of the wheat and tares: The wheat is gathered or led together into the barn and then the tares are burned in Matthew 13:30.
    • We are saved from God’s Wrath through Jesus’ shed blood in Romans 5:9
    • Jesus rescues us from the Wrath to come in 1st Thessalonians 1:10
    • The people selected by God are not to suffer Wrath in 1st Thessalonians 5:9
    • In the Seal chronology the Great Multitude are assembled in Heaven before the seventh Seal is opened and its first Trumpet is sounded ―which brings fire upon the Earth burning a third in Revelation 7:9 and 8:7

    So the logistics of the Day of the Lord has it literally playing out as two days as Western man understands them and that is foreshadowed in the Feast of Trumpets also requiring two days. It is interesting though, that taken from a Jewish standpoint, coming after dark, and being completed on the next day, the Day of the Lord would still be one day in their system of time measurement. The different aspects of the Day of the Lord taking two days (as Western man views it) are united in one period of time because it comes down to the appearance of the Lord with His second advent. And those aspects of Jesus’ Second Advent that pertain to the calling of the chosen must precede those aspects of the Lord on the Day of the Lord that speak of retribution and Wrath. Indeed the Last Trumpet which heralds Rosh ha-Shanah comes before all the other Trumpets just as the Last Trumpet which brings out the Dead in Christ and has those who are still alive and are left upon the Earth exchange mortal for immorality comes before Trumpets of battle and Wrath.
  18. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

    Likes Received:
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    [SIZE=11pt]Bible Prophecy Unfolding[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Controversy surrounds the Prime Minister of Israel’s forthcoming appearance on Capitol Hill. Invited by Republican House Speaker John Boehner to address Congress about the threat of Iran’s nuclear ambitions, Benjamin Netanyahu welcomed this opportunity to share his country’s existential concern as the Iranian regime comes ever closer to achieving the capability of fulfilling its avowed goal of the total annihilation of Israel. But the White House has made known its displeasure. A growing number of Democratic lawmakers said they would boycott his talk. Vice President Joe Biden, who as president of the Senate would normally oversee Netanyahu’s address, said he would be out of town. House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said she hoped the speech “doesn’t take place.”[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Why all this animosity toward the leader of a long-standing ally, the only democracy in the middle east, to whom President Obama has long pledged his unswerving loyalty? Because the administration has made clear its fury at a supposed breach of protocol. The White House insists it was not consulted before the invitation was given. That breach of etiquette, it stoutly maintains, trumps any benefit Congress might gain from the insights of the Prime Minister of the country to be most immediately and severely affected by the present negotiations being concluded with Iran.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Remarkably, this is not the first time the issue of protocol lies at the heart of an Iranian threat to destroy the Jewish people. There is biblical precedent. Eerily echoing today’s story, the Book of Esther recounts the first recorded instance of attempted genocide against Jews in the ancient empire of Persia, today known as Iran. When, more than two millennia ago, Mordecai learns of Haman’s plot “to destroy, to slay and to exterminate all Jews, young and old, children and women, in a single day” (Esther 3:13), he prevails upon his adopted daughter Esther, now Queen, to intercede.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]But Esther is afraid. If she were to approach her husband to appeal Haman’s decree, she would be breaking royal protocol. “All the king’s servants and the people of the king’s provinces are well aware,” Esther responds to Mordecai, “that if anyone, man or woman, approaches the king in the inner court without being summoned, there is but one law for him: that he be put to death, except for the person to whom the king shall extend the gold sceptre so that he may live. Now I have not been summoned to come to the king for the past thirty days” (Esther 4:11).[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Nonetheless, the Book of Esther tells us that after begging the Jews to pray and fast on her behalf, Esther chose to disregard protocol in the face of possible extermination of her people. Esther succeeded in averting the evil decree. As a result, Jews to this day around the world celebrate the Festival of Purim.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]And so perhaps the most remarkable aspect of Prime Minister Netanyahu’s speech is that it is scheduled for the very day before Jews will be observing the Fast of Esther and Purim this year, to recall a time when a heroic Queen decided that the survival of her people took precedence over protocol.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]Quote from Jerusalem Post (Israel) February 16, 2015 6:45 am[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Netanyahu is the greatest spokesman in the world today for the realist worldview, emphasizing the threat of radical Islam and the need to take it seriously. He understands that some problems cannot be solved, but that we instead need to make sure we are kept in the best possible position, considering the existence of these problems.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Obama thus wants a deal with Iran; Netanyahu opposes a bad deal, and does not believe a good deal can be reached.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Netanyahu is an obstacle to Obama's attempt to apply his policy. Knowing how dangerous the American president's policies are, we can conclude that Netanyahu is one of the only things protecting the Western world from Obama's folly.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]In this way, Netanyahu is to Obama what Winston Churchill was to Neville Chamberlain – as Churchill was one of the fiercest critics of Chamberlain's appeasement of Nazi Germany. The difference is that Obama's appeasement of Iran is an even more dangerous threat to the Western world than the Nazis were – since while the hateful ideologies of Islamism and Nazism are similar, this time, nuclear weapons are involved.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]This is why Obama cannot stand Netanyahu and wants his defeat in the elections in March: The prime minister won't let him make the mistakes he so dearly wants to make. This is also why Obama will do anything he can to stop Netanyahu from speaking to the US Congress, to ensure he does not convince Congress to stop the Iranian nuclear deal he is trying to broker.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]History will be defined by the outcome of the battle between Obama and Netanyahu.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]We watch with great interest the developments regarding this speech and the upcoming elections in Israel. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]If Netanyahu is ousted, as Obama wants, then Isaiah 3:1-5 may come true.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]The Jerusalem Post says: History will be defined by the outcome of the battle between Obama and Netanyahu. Wrong J.P.! God will decide the outcome and we know from Bible Prophecy that Iran will commence their attack, they are driven to do that by the Satanic forces that control them. They and their allies will all go down into the Abyss. Ezekiel 32:24-25, Psalm 83:1-18, Amos 1:6-8, Ezekiel 30:1-5[/SIZE]
  19. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    And now for something that actually has to do with the Day of the Lord!

    papers #1 & 2 click here

    papers #3 & 4 click here

    papers #5 & 6 click here

    papers #7 & 8 click here

    The 144,000

    The problem with the 144,000 is saying who they are. There are as many definitions of who makes up the 144,000 as there are eschatological positions. Too often, the way the 144,000 are defined comes about based upon an eschatological view of the end-times and backing into their definition by default. A basic notion of the exegesis as it applies to eschatology here is to take the Bible as it is written and not to make it conform to a preset notion. Thus a bottom up approach is used taking what the Bible says first, and making connections second.

    It is interesting to review some of the various ways the 144,000 are labeled.

    • John Darby’s Synopsis has them as the “perfect number of the remnant of Israel is sealed, before the providential instruments of God's judgments are allowed to act.”

    • Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary has them as “the number of those who were sealed, may be understood to stand for the remnant of people which God reserved.”

    • John Wesley’s Explanatory Notes says of the children of Israel — “to these will afterwards be joined a multitude out of all nations. But it may be observed, this is not the number of all the Israelites who are saved from Abraham or Moses to the end of all things; but only of those who were secured from the plagues which were then ready to fall on the earth.”

    • John Gill's Exposition of the Bible says they “may denote their being the true and genuine offspring of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, holding their doctrine, and being built on their foundation; and these were of all the tribes of the children of Israel; not that these were all Jews in a literal sense, for the time of their conversion in great numbers is not yet come.”

    One theme that runs through all these views and through the majority position the Pre-Tribulation school of eschatology is that the 144,000 represent Israel, the nation. When the Bible is consulted however, four major facts about the 144,000 are presented. These major characteristics of the 144,000 do not constrict the 144,000 from being strictly Jewish in the modern sense. Moreover, the interpretative view of the 144,000 being Jewish rests upon the designation of the 144,000 being the tribes of Israel:

    Rev 6:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

    The first major fact of the Bible determines the 144,000 are from all the tribes of Israel. This is problematic. Since the Diaspora, modern lineage has been lost for some part. There is also the small matter of the “missing” tribes of Israel, even though Paul can list his tribe clearly. However, the two minor facts in the Bible make a designation of the modern Jew as representing this population difficult:

    • This list of tribes in Revelation chapter 6 does not match any of the genealogies of the twelve or alternately thirteen or even ten tribes which are listed in the Bible as representing Israel.

    • The 144,000 have both the name of the Father and the Son written on their foreheads

    Harkening back to the study of Israel in Chapter One whereby Jesus unites Church and Israel, rather than list the Jewish nation (as opposed to the man, or the land); this may represent the new beginning of believers which occurred with Christ. While a distinct split exists between Jew and Christian, Christians are also the true spiritual Israel following the Saints of old in faith in the Lord.

    This first minor fact distinction from the listing of the tribes in Revelation chapter six ought to break the equation between the 144,000 and the Jewish Remnant. If John wanted to say these were Jewish, he could have replicated any of twenty variations of the tribes of Israel in the Bible. At this first point of distinction from what the Bible actually reads, there is no specific reference in these tribes of Israel as John lists them to the Old Testament to say conclusively they are strictly Hebrew in their origin.

    With the second minor fact, saying the 144,000 men are Jewish in the modern sense of the word - being of the faith but not accepting Jesus as their savior - is refuted by the double names on their foreheads. At best, if Jewish, the 144,000 are Messianic Jews. If not, if they are suddenly converted, the question is then: How is it done instantaneously? It is allowable that God could know their heart is inclined toward Jesus, but one would have to ask why they didn’t convert before. At what point did they elude the question: Was Jesus Lord, liar, or lunatic so that they did not answer as the second or third part?

    The second major fact about the 144,000; the Bible describes them as firstfruits in Revelation 14:4. Jewish culture defines Firstfruits as the offering given to God before the Harvest. The very firstfruit of the winter harvest, the Omer offered in the Temple made by the Priests after the Passover on Sunday corresponds to Christ’s Resurrection; i.e., the Lamb leads the way. Following that, the very beginnings of the Church is a type of firstfruit since it began on Pentecost, which is also known as the Festival of Firstfruits. In the springtime rituals of the Feasts, and in typical fashion to an agricultural fact, barley is offered as the Omer as it ripens before the wheat. However, for each farmer though, during a specified time around Pentecost they are to bring the first of their crop which they will harvest. Thus as a whole, a firstfruit is the first of the harvest which is to follow.

    In like manner, the 144,000 as firstfruits precede a wider and greater Harvest. In true sequential order, this fact is observed in Revelation 14. So if in the first examination of the 144,000 there is no reason at all to limit their assignment to be only Jewish as representing the physical nation of Israel. Indeed, there is ample room to since this listing of tribes doesn’t match any physical national listing and they have both the names of the Father and the Son written on their foreheads to suggest the 144,000 are the Spiritual Israel. The essential idea encompassed in Revelation 14:4 confirms the assignment of the 144,000 as being from the Spiritual Israel as Firstfruits precede the Harvest, which itself is only for the Elect ― those selected by God.

    So, by their assignment as Firstfruits, the 144,000 must be of the same type as the Harvest, just as each farmer brought his crop to the Temple. This parallels the sequential order in the Seal account whereby the 144,000 precede the Great Multitude’s appearance before the Throne of God as well. As will be shown later as their assignment develops here, having the 144,000 be of the same nature will be replicated to the gathering of the Harvest in how they are brought together as well.

    Working backwards in verse 4 of Revelation 14, the third major fact about the 144,000 which establishes their identity is this: “They follow the Lamb wherever he goes.” Thus wherever Jesus goes, the 144,000 are with Him as the simple verb in the Greek dictates. When the Lord tramples out His Wrath upon the Land on the Day of the Lord, they must by definition follow Him there. When passages are brought forth as the timeline advances which show the Lord in the Temple, the 144,000 would be in there and in Jerusalem as well. When Jesus rides out to the final battle with His army in the final parallel account of Revelation,, by definition, the 144,000 must accompany Him.

    In addition, the clause: “They follow the Lamb wherever he goes,” suggests Jesus is mobile during the one ‘seven.’ Just as Jesus was not confined to Paradise in death, but visited spirits imprisoned in the nether region of the afterlife and made an announcement to them – so too does Jesus have mobility to choose where He goes, and indeed, as indicated in Revelation 14:4, Jesus goes places. So once Jesus arrives, where He goes afterward is not limited in this eschatology. Rather, the Son of God who can descend from Heaven to snatch up the Church can deliver them to the Father can return as often as necessary for God’s Plan of Redemption and Wrath to proceed. But as established as a fact in the Bible, whenever Jesus does so, the 144,000 follow Him.

    The fourth and final major fact in Revelation 14:4 identifies the 144,000 as not having been “defiled” by women. There are three ways to interpret this.

    A. The first would be to take this as literally as possible. This can be done twice over with the first fact and an interpretation can be rendered and argued that the 144,000 are virgin Jewish men and ostensibly, young men at that.

    B. The second would incorporate this as a stand alone condition, and while allowing the Church to be represented in the 144,000 as the spiritual Israel, would insist the 144,000 are men because as virgins, they have not been “with” women.

    C. The third would be to take a figurative view which belies a literal group. So incorporating another definition of Israel would be married to the figurative use of the Church as a woman which stays faithful to Christ and does not prostitute itself to outside heretical teachings which are figuratively referred to as harlotry.

    This third interpretation has some backing from various commentaries which delve into this aspect of being “defiled” by women. Sex, itself, may not be an issue here because sex by itself is not sinful. Therefore, like the listing of the tribes of Israel, a different interpretation which does not rely upon a strict literal meaning may be warranted. Like calling the anti-Christ a beast, rather than be a literal beast; the anti-Christ is best described as a beast to indicate his true nature.

    John's most difficult statement about this group is that they did "not defile themselves with women." Does he mean that this group consists only of men who had never married? Or should it be understood as referring to spiritual apostasy or cult prostitution? It is unlikely that "defiled" (molyno) refers merely to sexual intercourse since nowhere in Scripture does intercourse within marriage constitute sinful defilement (cf. Heb 13:4). On the other hand, the word "defiled" is found in the Letter of Aristeas (15.2) in connection with the promiscuous intercourse practiced by the Gentiles that defiled them but from which the Jews have been separated by the commandments of God (R. H. Charles, The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, 2 vols. [New York: Oxford, 1913], 2:109). Therefore the words can refer only to adultery or fornication; and this fact, in turn, establishes "pure" as the meaning of parthenoi ("virgins") in this context (NIV is paraphrastic here, but accurately so). In fact, parthenos can be used of formerly married persons in this figurative way and is so used of widows by Ignatius (Smyrna 13). The same masculine plural word (parthenous) is used in the LXX of Lamentations 2:10, which Ford suggests may be in parallel with "the elders of the daughter of Zion" (p. 242).

    Kiddle thinks the reference is to actual celibacy, which alone could fit a man to be a sacrificial lamb for God (p. 268; also Glasson, p. 85). Caird connects the purity reference with holy-war regulations for soldiers who were ceremonially unclean because of sexual reasons (Deut 23:9-10; 1Sam 21:5; 2Sam 11:11). Each of these views founders because of the assumption that "uncleanness" (akathartos) is the equivalent of "defile" (molyno). Such an assumption not only fails on linguistic grounds but involves us in a scriptural contradiction, i.e., that the marriage bed is defiling and sinful. It is better, then, to relate the reference to purity to the defilement of idolatry. In fact, John seems to use molyno this way elsewhere of cult prostitution (3:4; cf. 2:14, 20, 22). ―Expositor’s Bible Commentary

    Using the third interpretation again, then some would say the 144,000 will be those (male and female, Jew and Gentile) who either keep out of or come out of such churches and the system, and purify themselves through the pure gospel. This allows for women to be included in the 144,000. This could be possible because no reference to the 144,000 dictates that the firstfruits be entirely male. However, also absent in the Bible is any sense that God would use women to fight. Other than Deborah, Israel’s fighting force as always been comprised of men. To then ask what would be the make-up of God’s Army which is so clearly on display on the second half of the Day of the Lord then has to ascertain whether God would be “enlightened” in the modern sense of secular politics today and include women, or is He chauvinistic? The question can be turned around: is the person insisting upon a male army chauvinistic, or is the person insisting upon an integrated force being politically correct?

    The only interpretations which have to be rejected are the ones which insist the 144,000 represent the Remnant. There is not enough in number to count as being the third of the Jewish nation which are brought through the end-times. This would also reject any notion that the 144,000 are evangelical missionaries as well. Since the 144,000 remain with Christ throughout, there is no possibility for a blanket caucusing of the Jewish nation.
    Working upwards from the Bible, these conclusions are rightfully established: the 144,000 are not necessarily Jewish; they are the Firstfruits of the Harvest; they follow Christ wherever He goes; and they are pure. These facts point to the denotation of the Spiritual Israel sought by God where people worship in spirit rather than just limiting these young men to be only from the physical nation of Israel. But to answer whether men alone or called, is a circular aspect to what the 144,000 do. As mentioned just before: How would God make up His Army?

    REV 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

    The tie-in with the sixth Seal of the Seal/Scroll chronology is evident here with the 144,000 now sealed and ready. This is another marker which shows the parallel nature of the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of the side bar account of 11:1-13), which acts as a broad overview, and the subsequent, detailed account of the one ‘seven’ in Revelation chapters 13-16 inclusive.

    The image of Jesus standing on a hill like the Mount of Olives paints an illustration of Him with many. This image is not the only time Jesus can be said to be on a hilltop with many people. In Isaiah, the Lord musters an army on a hilltop. This is the same image portrayed in Revelation 14. Thus, Isaiah 13 acts as a multiple account to the same event:

    ISA 13:2 Raise a banner on a bare hilltop,
    shout to them;
    beckon to them
    to enter the gates of the nobles.

    ISA 13:3 I have commanded my holy ones;
    I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath--
    those who rejoice in my triumph.

    ISA 13:4 Listen, a noise on the mountains,
    like that of a great multitude!
    Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms,
    like nations massing together!
    The LORD Almighty is mustering
    an army for war.

    ISA 13:5 They come from faraway lands,
    from the ends of the heavens--
    the LORD and the weapons of his wrath--
    to destroy the whole country.

    ISA 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
    it will come like destruction from the Almighty.

    Isaiah 13 is married by Isaiah’s parallel account in 5:26.

    ISA 5:26 He lifts up a banner for the distant nations,
    he whistles for those at the ends of the earth.
    Here they come,
    swiftly and speedily!

    In Isaiah 13, the opening of the banner raised on the bare hilltop fits a very literal sense to the Mount of Olives. It is upon that summit that Jesus returns as prophesized in Zechariah 14:4 and Acts 1:11. Jesus gave the key event of the Sun/moon/star sign in the Olivet Discourse to identify His coming on the clouds with the Day of the Lord. That same event is evidenced in the Seal chronology of Revelation 6. Again, Isaiah 13 agrees with Zechariah 14:4 and Revelation 14:1. Indeed, the final fact given in this passage and repeated later in Isaiah chapter 13 proclaims the Day of the Lord. The conclusion drawn here then is that all describe the same event which happens on the Day of the Lord.

    Furthermore, these warriors being raised in Isaiah 13 are for God’s army. They along with the Lord will carry out God’s Wrath. For Israel, the Day of the Lord expresses calamities which befall Israel. One of these calamities is battle. This agrees with another depiction of an army in Joel. The Lord, who is Jesus, tramples out His Wrath on Israel on the Day of the Lord. Revelation 14:4 dictates that the 144,000 stay alongside the Lamb. On the Day of the Lord, there is also an army which acts as God’s Wrath. Therefore, these 144,000 being summoned are warriors; they are God’s Army.

    To deflect criticism, the NIV does not provide a concise translation of the original Hebrew and inserts “multitude” for ‘people’ in Isaiah 13:4. The NASB or KJV translations do a proper job here as before with Joel. While the NIV is used for ease of reading, it is not the best word-for-word English version because it attempts to render the Hebrew and Greek on a thought-for-thought basis. However the noise on the mountains in Isaiah 13:4 may well reflect a multiple account of the 144,000 on Mount Zion with the Lamb as they sing a new song.

    Another interesting fact about the group and the 144,000 being of the same type as the Harvest is that there is a distinct duality to their origin. They come from faraway lands and the end of the heavens. The first would indicate living individuals, while the second would necessitate a mustering from the spiritual realm beyond this life. The language of Isaiah is very similar to what Jesus uses for the Elect in the Olivet Discourse:

    ISA 13:5 They come from faraway lands,
    from the ends of the heavens--

    MT 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

    Recalling that Elect is used throughout the New Testament as a synonym for the Church, this gathering of the Elect reflects the Church. The imagery preceding this particular verse is replicated in Revelation 14 with the Harvest as Jesus appears on the clouds just as Jesus said He would in Matthew 24:30. Therefore, while this army being mustered in Isaiah 13 has the same kind of origins as the Elect, the actual gathering here is for the Harvest, not the mustering upon the barren hilltop.

    However, since the 144,000 are Firstfruits to the Harvest, and that indicates of a like kind, then as Holy Ones as Isaiah proclaims in 13:3, the army being mustered is out of the book of Life. The army being mustered contains those Holy Ones who are alive at the time which necessitates that they believe in Christ first (and thus precludes this segment from being Jewish in the strictest sense) and adds to them those from Paradise, the first realm of Heaven from where the dead in Christ are resurrected. So not only are the Firstfruits like the Elect being of the same kind, they are called forth in the same manner.

    This actually can unite Jew and Gentile. The first Resurrection raises the dead in Christ as Paul taught in 1st Corinthians. As covered in the first Chapter, the dead come from the first Heaven, Paradise. This would allow then for Old Testament Saints to be raised up as well as New Testament Saints. Each group would be selected by God as being worthy to be included in the Book of Life at that moment when the Rapture commences. However, for the living, those that come from faraway lands as with the mustered army or the four corners of the earth for the Elect, the only qualification to be counted Holy during the Church Age would be to be a believer in Christ Jesus first. So in both groups, the 144,000 and the Elect, Jesus would unite Jew and Gentile in accordance with Isaiah 49:6. In addition, the rescue of God’s people would also start with Israel of old and proceed to the Gentile Church in accordance with Romans 2:10.

    In connecting the 144,000 to the role they play, the chronology of the Day of the Lord must be accelerated to a time beyond the moment being examined. During the second half of the Day of the Lord, Jesus tramples His Wrath out upon the Land. As a principle of God’s plan following Romans 2:9, this happens first in Israel as God cleanses the Land so as to use it as a Rock to smash the nations (Zec 12:3). This leads to some interesting scenes in Old Testament prophecy:

    JOEL 2:1 Blow the trumpet in Zion;
    sound the alarm on my holy hill.
    Let all who live in the land tremble,
    for the day of the LORD is coming.
    It is close at hand--

    JOEL 2:2 a day of darkness and gloom,
    a day of clouds and blackness.
    Like dawn spreading across the mountains
    a large and mighty army comes,
    such as never was of old
    nor ever will be in ages to come.

    JOEL 2:3 Before them fire devours,
    behind them a flame blazes.
    Before them the land is like the garden of Eden,
    behind them, a desert waste--
    nothing escapes them.

    JOEL 2:4 They have the appearance of horses;
    they gallop along like cavalry.

    JOEL 2:5 With a noise like that of chariots
    they leap over the mountaintops,
    like a crackling fire consuming stubble,
    like a mighty army drawn up for battle.

    JOEL 2:6 At the sight of them, nations are in anguish;
    every face turns pale.

    JOEL 2:7 They charge like warriors;
    they scale walls like soldiers.
    They all march in line,
    not swerving from their course.

    JOEL 2:8 They do not jostle each other;
    each marches straight ahead.
    They plunge through defenses
    without breaking ranks.

    JOEL 2:9 They rush upon the city;
    they run along the wall.
    They climb into the houses;
    like thieves they enter through the windows.

    JOEL 2:10 Before them the earth shakes,
    the sky trembles,
    the sun and moon are darkened,
    and the stars no longer shine.

    JOEL 2:11 The LORD thunders
    at the head of his army;

    his forces are beyond number,
    and mighty are those who obey his command.
    The day of the LORD is great;
    it is dreadful.
    Who can endure it?

    The facts contained within this chapter identify it as belonging to the Day of the Lord. The day is a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness, just as was seen in describing the signs surrounding the Day of the Lord. The sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine just as Jesus described in the Olivet Discourse. Indeed, Joel declares the Day of the Lord is coming from the onset of the vision.

    While commentaries assign this horde as originating with the Assyrians in the eighth and seventh centuries B.C., verse 2 identifies it as being as specific and unique as the time of the Great Tribulation: it is not to be repeated. Certainly Israel is scourged by the nations God sent against her again with the Babylonians and later the Greeks and Romans. So to say Joel 2 is only near-term prophecy to his age is refuted by this clause. In addition, mentioning aspects of the Day of the Lord cement this as being far-term prophecy concerning the end times.

    A second particular fact of this prophetic vision which has application to the 144,000 is the calling forth of them from Mount Zion. This aligns with Jesus’ paraousia upon the Mount of Olives as delineated in the sequence of events surrounding the Day of the Lord. It also aligns perfectly with the image John conveys in Revelation 14:1; the 144,000 are arrayed with Jesus on Mount Zion. At this point, Joel 2:1 acts as a multiple account to Revelation 14:1 in that they describe the same event but from different authors and perspectives.

    This passage describes the coming array in military terms. “They gallop along like cavalry,” they sound “like that of chariots,” “they all march,” “like soldiers” and “like warriors.” Twice Joel identifies them outright as an army, and at the head of this army Joel places the Lord. The previous fact from Revelation 14:4 is in perfect congruence whereby the 144,000 follow Jesus wherever He goes. The army Joel describes is following the Lord. Therefore the 144,000 must by definition be in the army of the Lord.

    The NIV translation of the Lord’s army as beyond number could lead some to say this force is comparable to the Great Multitude, but the original language does not dictate such a translation. The double emphasis of much could indicate a hyperbole for how great the Lord’s army is. Indeed, the KJV and the NASB translate the phrase as God’s “camp is very great.”

    Viewing the 144,000 as making up God’s Army would also be in accordance with the display of God’s power. Just as God didn’t need over 30,000 troops under Gideon’s command, or even 20,000, but could rout tens of thousands of Midianites with only 300 Israelis equipped with torches, jars, and trumpets; so too does God not need literally billions of souls to take back the earth from the nations. In this case, only 144,000 could take on millions, even hundreds of millions.

    This idea goes against the Post-Tribulation view which usually incorporates everyone coming back with Jesus. To need billions would take away from the power of Christ. In Jude, the author speaks of a time when God’s Wrath will avenge the righteous as it judges the wicked. Here is an ancient view of the Lord coming back to punish the wicked:

    JUDE 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones

    Absent is a Great Multitude of souls. Indeed, there is no indication the Lord presses His Bride into conscript. Rather, the Bride is reserved for celebration and union. However, a small cadre of elite troops from across the spectrum of time from ancient Israel through the Church Age to include some still living made up of young men who exemplify righteousness would form an excellent nexus to follow the Lamb wherever He goes and be agents of His Wrath.

    In the scene of the last parallel account within Revelation starting with chapter 19, a Great Multitude is heard cheering on Jesus and His Army as they prepare to go forth to battle at Armageddon. This too would allow the 144,000 to be the Army as the majority of saved souls from the Harvest remain in Heaven. The Church is the Bride of Christ, and while not politically correct, women do not fight in war in the Bible (although in isolated instances they can lead men to war, as a rule, women are not equipped, nor strong enough to fight in war and are left at home behind the front lines). The 144,000 on the other hand, are prime fighting material for the Lord, and as such, it is this author’s opinion that they are limited to being men only.

    The Firstfruits march with the Lord’s Army. While this may be a form of circular argument; to complete the interpretation of just who the 144,000 must include the fact that Jesus has an Army which goes with Him to fight on the Day of the Lord and at Armageddon at the end of the one ‘seven.’ Coupled with the fact that they go wherever the Lamb goes necessitates that the 144,000 are part of that Army. Indeed, the argument presented here would say the 144,000 are that Army and Jesus needs no other. As a fighting force, like the Elders before God, the Disciples taking on the world before, and the 300 with Gideon, these Firstfruits are men.

    3 Angels

    The three Angels are important in God’s Plan of Salvation/Redemption. They cover the earth and make three pronouncements:

    1. the Gospel message: the last call for Salvation,
    2. absent that, the determination of guilt, and
    3. consequence: Judgment

    In Zechariah 3, the removal of sin from Jesus takes place in a Court setting. In Daniel 7, the prophet relates specifically that God’s Court sits. God sets the rules for witnesses, requiring two or more to set a matter – a legal ruling. In the legal realm, the Angels act as God’s voice, telling the guilty that they have been judged. The pronouncements of the three Angels therefore cover the legal necessities of God the Father as Judge of the world.

    “Then I saw…” The Angels do not constitute another linear narrative within the book of Revelation. It is another scene within the detailed parallel account that chapters 13 through 16 represent. This portion changes scene but not focus; it just describes what the Angels say from a worldwide vantage. Chapters 14 through 16 detail God’s response to the midpoint abomination. And while the Angels do pronounce certain facts, because of the nature of the verb tense in the Greek, they cannot be read as happening at that exact moment. The events the Angels describe are “summary occurrences” and as such, can be past, present or future. Once God pronounces sentence, that end result is absolutely certain; nothing can change it. Therefore, while reading the English version that Babylon the Great (megas) is fallen – its “fall” does not happen until later as specifically delineated the account.

    The Angels’ pronouncements also give reason for other aspects of the end-times from parallel and multiple accounts. The Angels’ pronouncement of God’s imminent Judgment makes the wicked people hide underground in the previous broad overview of the end-times in the Seal/Scroll chronology. While commentators pinpoint the start of God’s Wrath because that is the first instance in which the word is used by John, it is important to note that it is not strictly John who pronounces God’s Wrath is coming. John only reports what the wicked say. It is the wicked who say God’s Wrath is coming because they heard the Angels as well. However, rather than repent, still in rebellion, they hide fearing for their own lives because all they care about is that God is indeed coming for them. The wicked people’s statement in the sixth Seal that God’s Wrath is not a statement of action being taken upon them: it is only their faulty conclusion based on their own self-interest. They don’t care about anyone but themselves and their understanding of God’s plan is not only severely limited, it is extremely faulty as well; they have no understanding about what Jesus really is going to do at His parousia at that moment.

    In regards to multiple accounts, Jesus gives us the Great Commission in the Olivet Discourse:

    MT 28:19 “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

    Jesus also sets its fulfillment as a precursor for the ‘end’ of the ‘age:’

    MT 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    This establishes a sequence-of-events between the final Gospel message the Angels carry as an event and the end which is not defined as the total end (as in the one ‘seven’), but an end of an era or time.

    The Church cannot fulfill this prophecy, because the Church cannot completely fulfill the Great Commission. Although caring attempts certainly have been made by various Christians and Christian organizations, an Angel actually fulfills what the Church cannot possibly perform. This is not the fault of the Church; it is simply impossible for any human effort to completely reach everyone who has yet and still needs to hear the Gospel message.

    REV 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth ― to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

    Notice in the parallel account of the one ‘seven’ in Revelation chapters 13 through 16, that the fulfillment of the Great Commission comes after the Great Tribulation described in Revelation chapter 13, but right before the Harvest in the parallel account of the one ‘seven’ in Revelation chapter 14. The timing is critical because people are constantly being born. Past efforts neglect new souls who were born after those campaigns. It is literally impossible for man to satisfy the Great Commission, which does not lessen Jesus’ command that each Christian witness. However, only God has the ability to make a world-wide appeal in every language with divine power right before Jesus comes on the clouds so that no one can miss the Gospel message. This adds a second witness to the testimony of the Angel: it is a message from God. God will provide a way for all those He knows will come to Him even though they could never hear the Gospel message otherwise.

    “The hour has come,” is, like the “fallen” of Babylon is in the aorist tense, indicative mood, and active voice. This is the nature of the pronouncement. The aorist tense has no equal in English. It describes a summary occurrence without regard to the time it takes to accomplish. Secondly, being in the indicative mood, the second Angel merely makes a pronouncement, a statement of fact of an actual occurrence. The truthfulness of the statement is from the writer's or speaker's perspective. Thirdly, the verb is in the active voice rather than be a passive description of something which has happened. What is not yet named is the actor who advances the action.

    Although now stipulated explicitly, since this first Angel comes after the 144,000 but before the Harvest – the timing can be firmly pegged as happening on the Day of the Lord. Jesus states this fact in the Olivet Discourse. It is at the time of the sun/moon/star event that He comes on the clouds, which is the same image presented with the Harvest. The first Angel acts as a last call to the world as God extends His Grace to all who would receive His gift of Salvation through His Son, Christ Jesus.

    As the last day of the Church Age is rapidly approaching, this is the last chance any normal being will have to escape the coming Wrath. Many peoples outside of the Kingdom of the North will accept this miraculous pronouncement of the Gospel and believe. Those of the East, in the Orient, bereft of a Judeo-Christian foundation will find solace in the Words and will believe. Some in the South, controlled by pagan and satanic religions will likewise, having a heart for God, convert in a moment, and without having to weather persecution which would otherwise wilt their newfound joy.

    Furthermore, while people are being saved at the very last moment, the wicked are hearing that their time is up. So while they hide in their lairs, they quake in fear knowing God’s Judgment is about to befall them. This explains why the wicked speak of God’s “wrath” as coming while they are hiding in their liars in the parallel account of the sixth Seal in that chronology: they heard the first Angel as well. However, they still reject the Gospel message.

    REV 14:8 A second angel followed and said, "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."

    A cursory reading in English of verse 8 seems to produce a pronouncement by the second Angel that Babylon has fallen. Reading “fallen” as a past participle in English, leads to the conclusion that a simple act has occurred and Babylon is no more. However, the word “fallen” in the Greek describes a totally different circumstance.

    First of all, like the ‘hour has come,’ the lexical word for “fallen” is in the aorist tense, indicative mood, and active voice. Again, this tense has no equal in English. It describes a summary occurrence without regard to the time it takes to accomplish. Secondly, and yet again, being in the indicative mood, the second Angel pronounces a statement of fact of an actual occurrence. And likewise thirdly, the verb is in the active voice, so rather than be a passive description of something which has come upon Babylon and ruined it, the second Angel is saying Babylon actively falls. Again, the actor who fells Babylon is not mentioned. The second Angel is not telling a story of how Babylon fell, or will fall; just that its accomplishment is a statement of fact: a pronouncement.

    The fallen nature of Babylon may very well indicate the depths this form of man-worship has sunk. The depth unto which Babylon has fallen is described in the detailed second parallel account of Revelation 17-18:

    "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
    She has become a home for demons
    and a haunt for every evil spirit,
    a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.

    REV 18:3 For all the nations have drunk
    the maddening wine of her adulteries.
    The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
    and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."

    Note here that the Angel of Revelation 18 is not describing a city that has been wiped out, or fallen in physical ruin because of war. Rather, the fallen nature of Babylon comes as a list of her sins and generally depraved nature. Likewise the exhortation to God’s people is come out of Babylon and not to share in her sins or punishment because there will be a day for God’s Wrath to fall upon Babylon and she will be ruined. However, that day has not yet arrived. Like the first Angel, an impending sense of doom for the wicked naturally results from hearing that God’s Judgment is coming.

    In the overall context of the book of Revelation, John is telling a story. The storytelling has not shifted to the second Angel; nor has the second Angel become an actor in the story to bring down Babylon megas. In the context of the sequence-of-events, at the midpoint abomination which causes ‘who is like God’ to arise, from Daniel 7:10: The court was seated, and the books were opened. God has pronounced Judgment and that decision is read to the guilty party before sentencing begins. The sentencing results in the removal of the wicked from God’s Kingdom first by their death, and then by their total elimination from existence in the Lake of Fire after the second Resurrection which occurs after the Millennium.

    REV 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

    At this time, Jesus has not yet gathered the Elect from the face of the Earth. Up until Jesus comes, the Great Tribulation with its two terrible laws (worship the image(s) of the beast or die, and take the mark of the beast or don’t buy or sell) have been in effect. This condition is still belaboring God’s people. Like the example of the five wise virgins of Matthew 25:1-13, God’s people must remain faithful until the last moment.

    While the example of the five foolish virgins can be said to be a figurative parable to keep faith (oil), it can also aptly describe the great turmoil which will be foisted upon those who are Christians to maintain their vigilance in the face of real and physical discomfort and need. With supplies stretched or run out, it would be exceedingly foolish to run out, accept the mark of the beast so as to buy something one thinks they need and in so doing lose their eternal salvation by a demonstration that their faith could produce not even a seed of patient endurance.

    12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

    Patient endurance, hupomonē, was required for the Church during the first half of the one ‘seven’ in Revelation 13:10. Now, at the end of the Church age, it is still required until the Rapture actually happens for those who are alive and are left. As Jesus said of hupomonē during the end-times in Luke 21:19:

    By standing firm you will gain life.

    This “standing firm” (hupomonē) is not a stubborn resistance, but another way of expressing the endurance Christians must exhibit from their faith. This display of endurance, as Paul informs the Thessalonians, “is inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ” (1Th 1:3). This is a faith that works.

    In exercising patient endurance, there is no need to win the race ― that is, to get to the finish line of Jesus’ actual parousia. The overriding factor for the Christian is to keep the faith, not to stay alive. It matters little to scrape by and manage to see the blessed event only to be left behind and suffer God’s Wrath because that person accepted the mark of the beast or worshipped his image(s). Better to lose your life and keep it for eternity than that. The parables following the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24:45-25:30) all speak of the need for the follower of Christ to remain faithful up to and including the time of the bridegroom’s return.
  20. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    I have no particular interest in taking sides in this discussion, though I do believe that this generation will not pass away before all those things prophesied by Christ to occur before His return do indeed happen or are in some manner fulfilled.
    However, I agree with this particular statement as Solar flares are relatively common occurrences which may cause atmospheric disturbance and could potentially wipe out satellite communication, GPS and consequently most surfaced based systems that rely on GPS. I have recently heard some interesting hypotheses from cosmological circles which posit that planetary formation is not the by product of solar formation, but rather of solar evolution: Within the core of a star, the nuclear plasma is supposedly forming fusion products, initially hydrogen nuclei forming helium nuclei, then combinations of such particles forming heavier nuclei to eventually arrive at the most stable nuclear form which is that of Iron (some reactions would produce the heavier elements, but these being less stable than Iron will decay into smaller nuclear components). It was long held by cosmologists that certain star classes (determined by size) remain in a single fusion/fission cycle with only specific byproducts for a prolonged period (the effective life of the star type) but now some theorists believe that the planets themselves are ejecta of the stars heavier elements. I don't have much of an opinion about it one way or another, since I believe that God is capable of simply speaking things into existence and continues to hold all things together by His will. I have no expertise in cosmology or plasma physics and am only aware of such things from introductory courses in college, and the occasional article of interest published in laymen's magazines. Events like the disappearing "spot" in Jupiter's atmosphere pique my curiosity, since there are clearly things happening on a grandiose scale not anticipated by astronomers over the last few centuries, and nothing happening to our solar system can be expected to happen without consequence to our planet.
    I've spent the greater part of my life working as a radio technician, but consequently have a lot of respect for electrical power, its affects, and its propagation. It wasn't until we sent voyager past Jupiter that we had gained some understanding of the dynamic affect of particle currents upon volcanism (there is a huge current passing through the poles of Jupiter and that of at least one of its most violent moons which is associated with the electrical dynamic of their magnetic rotating plasma cores.) Since the Earth and the Sun have cores which share similar dynamic properties it would seem foolish to disregard the possibility of increased volcanism in response to increased current flow. Some astronomers have noted that during the last two decades, as ecologists have raised the banner of global warming as the greatest threat to our survival, that there have been measurable increases in the temperatures of other planets in the solar system, clearly not the product of human intervention. Climatologists understand that increasing energy in a system doesn't necessarily lead to higher temperatures, but must lead to greater kinetic energies and higher stored potential energies (with potentially more savage events changing those potentials and expending those energies).
    What does knowing all these things do for us?
    For those who see the world as a collection of random events, the observable changes can only be interpreted as unforeseen calamity which we by our brilliant and powerfully innovative minds may attempt to prepare for and possibly prevent (good luck with that.) For the superstitious who recognize an order in the world, but refuse to submit to its Creator, these events are seen as an expression of "nature's wrath," the anger of some unknown and mythological super being from which all other beings have arisen and are a part of, that might be assuaged by returning to simpler and less violent means of living and offering up some form of reverence to the unknown "mother" of us all (back to the garden kind of thinking.) I think that the biblical point of view is being expressed here in this and other discussion threads, though it seems an act of hubris to assume that we as men can properly interpret the work of God in creation entirely intellectually as based upon His word, given that His word teaches us that His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and that while we might attain to "the mind of Christ" as expressed in scripture and through submission to His Spirit, He has said that the hidden things are His and that the revealed things are ours.
    To which of you has He revealed something new and if He has, will He not reveal it to all?
    Does your view point encourage you to greater acts of kindness and love to your fellow man?
    How are you doing with regard to the love of the brethren?
    I do believe that it is necessary to prepare ourselves for the times, but I'm not expecting "Scotty" to "beam me up," so how do I (or anyone else for that matter) prepare for persecutions, famines, pestilences, wars, etc., that is other than in drawing near to God in prayer, in fellowship, and in worship?
    I'm not a survivalist, though at the age of 58 I'm starting to think of myself as a survivor. In my current devotional reading I'm presently going through the ministry of the prophet Elijah, and thinking that I wouldn't particularly want to live off of the food provided by some ravens, but the point is that Elijah did. "The Lord our Provider" is a wonderful title and entirely true for those who trust Him to be just that. He's given us instruction on how to care for each other, how to honor Him by giving honor to the humble, how to provide from our stewardship as He has provided for us, how to make ourselves rich by making ourselves poor, and all such counter cultural intuitive works.
    I'm inclined to believe that making a stand for Christ has more to do with obedience to His directives than with verbal sparring over pet hypotheses on eschatology and the desire for personal recognition of mental or spiritual accomplishment. Let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
    Am I way off here or are we all servants of the same God?