The dead in Christ. Per Pretrib, who all are they meaning?

[Davidpt]

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Regardless when one thinks the rapture occurs, no one disputes that the dead in Christ rise first. It is then a matter of who all the dead in Christ involve. Obviously, it involves dead saints awaiting a bodily resurrection unto immortality.


But who do Pretribbers assume is part of the dead in Christ that rise first? Only some saints, thus not all saints? Or all saints? For example, Adam. Obviously he is dead, and obviously, unlike Cain for example, Adam is a saint. Does that make him of the dead in Christ, or does that make him something else? If the latter, what is it that it makes him? If he is in heaven with Stephen, for example, keeping in mind that Stephen lived after Christ was born, Adam didn't, does that then mean the following?

even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

But not Adam, though? He gets left behind since he lived and died before Jesus was born, therefore, he is not among those which sleep in Jesus? Only someone that lives and dies after Christ was born can sleep in Jesus? No one born before Jesus was, including Noah, Abraham, etc, can be among those that sleep in Jesus? Therefore, when the dead in Christ rise first, OT saints, such as Adam, Noah, etc, get left behind in heaven rather than being among the dead in Christ that rise first?

I simply want to know, per their view of things, who the dead in Christ include, the fact Pretrib has them rising before great tribulation rather than after. For one thing, it seems rather silly that if Adam is currently in heaven with Stephen, for example, that when the dead in Christ rise first, which involves this---them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him, that Adam gets left behind in heaven rather than being among those that God will bring with Him. Which begs another question. Bring with Him to go to where? Back to heaven where they just were moments earlier? That's messed up if it means that. It couldn't possibly mean that.

I have more to add but not wanting to do that just yet.

 

[Douggg]

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Regardless when one thinks the rapture occurs, no one disputes that the dead in Christ rise first. It is then a matter of who all the dead in Christ involve. Obviously, it involves dead saints awaiting a bodily resurrection unto immortality.


But who do Pretribbers assume is part of the dead in Christ that rise first? Only some saints, thus not all saints? Or all saints? For example, Adam. Obviously he is dead, and obviously, unlike Cain for example, Adam is a saint. Does that make him of the dead in Christ, or does that make him something else? If the latter, what is it that it makes him? If he is in heaven with Stephen, for example, keeping in mind that Stephen lived after Christ was born, Adam didn't, does that then mean the following?

even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

But not Adam, though? He gets left behind since he lived and died before Jesus was born, therefore, he is not among those which sleep in Jesus? Only someone that lives and dies after Christ was born can sleep in Jesus? No one born before Jesus was, including Noah, Abraham, etc, can be among those that sleep in Jesus? Therefore, when the dead in Christ rise first, OT saints, such as Adam, Noah, etc, get left behind in heaven rather than being among the dead in Christ that rise first?

I simply want to know, per their view of things, who the dead in Christ include, the fact Pretrib has them rising before great tribulation rather than after. For one thing, it seems rather silly that if Adam is currently in heaven with Stephen, for example, that when the dead in Christ rise first, which involves this---them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him, that Adam gets left behind in heaven rather than being among those that God will bring with Him. Which begs another question. Bring with Him to go to where? Back to heaven where they just were moments earlier? That's messed up if it means that. It couldn't possibly mean that.

I have more to add but not wanting to do that just yet.

During the 3 days that Jesus's body was dead, His soul went to the place of the dead and Jesus preached to the spirits there about the gospel of salvation. Because its says in Ephesians 4 that He lead captivity captive (to Himself).

So that is how all the persons who lived and died before Christ, their souls departed the place of the dead and are now in heaven.

It is those souls and the souls of them who became Christians after the resurrection, which God will have Jesus bring with Him to redeem their bodies from the earth, i.e from the dust that their bodies became. Thus, the dead in Christ rise first.

 

[Randy Kluth]

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Regardless when one thinks the rapture occurs, no one disputes that the dead in Christ rise first. It is then a matter of who all the dead in Christ involve. Obviously, it involves dead saints awaiting a bodily resurrection unto immortality.


But who do Pretribbers assume is part of the dead in Christ that rise first? Only some saints, thus not all saints? Or all saints? For example, Adam. Obviously he is dead, and obviously, unlike Cain for example, Adam is a saint. Does that make him of the dead in Christ, or does that make him something else? If the latter, what is it that it makes him? If he is in heaven with Stephen, for example, keeping in mind that Stephen lived after Christ was born, Adam didn't, does that then mean the following?

even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

But not Adam, though? He gets left behind since he lived and died before Jesus was born, therefore, he is not among those which sleep in Jesus? Only someone that lives and dies after Christ was born can sleep in Jesus? No one born before Jesus was, including Noah, Abraham, etc, can be among those that sleep in Jesus? Therefore, when the dead in Christ rise first, OT saints, such as Adam, Noah, etc, get left behind in heaven rather than being among the dead in Christ that rise first?

I simply want to know, per their view of things, who the dead in Christ include, the fact Pretrib has them rising before great tribulation rather than after. For one thing, it seems rather silly that if Adam is currently in heaven with Stephen, for example, that when the dead in Christ rise first, which involves this---them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him, that Adam gets left behind in heaven rather than being among those that God will bring with Him. Which begs another question. Bring with Him to go to where? Back to heaven where they just were moments earlier? That's messed up if it means that. It couldn't possibly mean that.

I have more to add but not wanting to do that just yet.

I get annoyed that your simple formulation is rejected by Pretribulationists--it is SO TRUE! Some people who you wish to share this with simply go to sleep. They do not want to hear. You can take a horse to the water trough, but you can't make him drink!

 

[Davidpt]

During the 3 days that Jesus's body was dead, His soul went to the place of the dead and Jesus preached to the spirits there about the gospel of salvation. Because its says in Ephesians 4 that He lead captivity captive (to Himself).

So that is how all the persons who lived and died before Christ, their souls departed the place of the dead and are now in heaven.

Up to this point I don't really have an issue with any of this unless you are perhaps proposing that they are now bodily in heaven, thus currently in possession of immortal bodies rather than still being in a disembodied state. Because, after all, how could they possibly be in an immortal body state when that can't even happen to begin with until the last trump sounds first? No one could possibly think the last trump already sounded 2000 years ago. What exactly are you meaning here then? What I think you might be meaning, that you think there are already saints in heaven bodily, as in they already possess a glorified immortal body like Christ has?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


That this is only applicable to what you said here, below, but not applicable to what you said there, above, that I initially quoted you saying?

It is those souls and the souls of them who became Christians after the resurrection, which God will have Jesus bring with Him to redeem their bodies from the earth, i.e from the dust that their bodies became. Thus, the dead in Christ rise first.

 

[Davidpt]

I get annoyed that your simple formulation is rejected by Pretribulationists--it is SO TRUE! Some people who you wish to share this with simply go to sleep. They do not want to hear. You can take a horse to the water trough, but you can't make him drink!

I was Pretrib for decades. I clearly did not understand that doctrine at the time. I didn't even bother checking into it, meaning, seeing whether or not that this was actually taught in the Bible. I simply believed it to be true because the churches I was attending at the time believed it to be true. I was rather naive about things in those days. Might kind of explain the way I am now, that I do my own thinking rather than letting others do my thinking for me. Doesn't mean I'm always right about everything all the time. But if I am wrong about anything, and I'm sure I am, can't blame it on anyone but myself since I am now doing my own thinking rather than like I used to do, that is, blindly trusting others to do my thinking for me without first checking in the Bible to see whether they might be correct or not.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I was Pretrib for decades. I clearly did not understand that doctrine at the time. I didn't even bother checking into it, meaning, seeing whether or not that this was actually taught in the Bible. I simply believed it to be true because the churches I was attending at the time believed it to be true. I was rather naive about things in those days. Might kind of explain the way I am now, that I do my own thinking rather than letting others do my thinking for me. Doesn't mean I'm always right about everything all the time. But if I am wrong about anything, and I'm sure I am, can't blame it on anyone but myself since I am now doing my own thinking rather than like I used to do, that is, blindly trusting others to do my thinking for me.

Yes, I have an entire testimony to this! I won't go into detail, but I got myself caught up in a Christian cult for just a short time, but long enough to wake me up. It happened to be almost next door to Walter Martin's ministry, who was an expert in the American cults.

Martin had a radio ministry called the Bible Answerman program. Hank Hanegraaff has it now. I listened a few hours every weekend to it, and even attended a couple of Martin's Sunday School classes at a nearby church--it happened to be my church at the time.

Martin said exactly what you're saying, that we need to think critically for ourselves. Otherwise we end up in error. We can't rely on "what the churches say," or on "what my pastor says." We have to study for ourselves to show ourselves "approved of God."

Thanks for your honesty. That's valuable stuff in this day and age, and actually, in all days and ages!

 

[Douggg]

Up to this point I don't really have an issue with any of this unless you are perhaps proposing that they are now bodily in heaven,

No, not presently bodily in heaven.

Because, after all, how could they possibly be in an immortal body state when that can't even happen to begin with until the last trump sounds first? No one could possibly think the last trump already sounded 2000 years ago. What exactly are you meaning here then? What I think you might be meaning, that you think there are already saints in heaven bodily, as in they already possess a glorified immortal body like Christ has?

No, they do not possess a glorified immortal body yet. Their bodies will be redeemed from the earth at the rapture/resurrection event.

The "last" trumpet does not mean the last trumpet as being that of the 7th angel third woe judgment sounding. Revelation had not yet been given for Paul's statement.

Trumpets were made at the beginning of the children of Israel's journey through the wilderness in the Exodus, to perform different functions that everyone in the camps could hear. Those functions were explained to each group of the twelve tribes, so that they would know what to do according to the way the trumpets were blown.

One of the functions of the trumpets was to prepare the groups to move to the next camp site, in a orderly fashion. Once the last trumpet was sounded, they all moved forward as a group, to go to the next camp site.

That is what the last trumpet is referring to in similitude. i.e. the heavenly sounding of a group of trumpets there in heaven. At which signaling, at the sound of the last trump of those trumpets, Jesus comes from heaven, with the souls of the dead in Christ, to redeem their bodies asleep in the dust of the earth to everlasting eternal bodies, reuniting with their souls with the glorified eternal life bodies redeemed from the dust of the earth -when the rapture/resurrection event takes place..

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

During the 3 days that Jesus's body was dead, His soul went to the place of the dead and Jesus preached to the spirits there about the gospel of salvation. Because its says in Ephesians 4 that He lead captivity captive (to Himself).

So that is how all the persons who lived and died before Christ, their souls departed the place of the dead and are now in heaven.

It is those souls and the souls of them who became Christians after the resurrection, which God will have Jesus bring with Him to redeem their bodies from the earth, i.e from the dust that their bodies became. Thus, the dead in Christ rise first.

So, for the sake of clarification, would you agree that all dead OT saints as well as all dead NT saints are included in the group that Paul called "the dead in Christ"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, not presently bodily in heaven.


No, they do not possess a glorified immortal body yet. Their bodies will be redeemed from the earth at the rapture/resurrection event.

The "last" trumpet does not mean the last trumpet as being that of the 7th angel third woe judgment sounding. Revelation had not yet been given for Paul's statement.

The same Holy Spirit who inspired Paul to write about the last trumpet inspired John to write about the 7th trumpet. So, even if it wasn't revealed to Paul at the time he was writing, the Holy Spirit knew what the last trumpet referred to. The last prophetic trumpet to sound. And that will be the seventh trumpet.

Trumpets were made at the beginning of the children of Israel's journey through the wilderness in the Exodus, to perform different functions that everyone in the camps could hear. Those functions were explained to each group of the twelve tribes, so that they would know what to do according to the way the trumpets were blown.

One of the functions of the trumpets was to prepare the groups to move to the next camp site, in a orderly fashion. Once the last trumpet was sounded, they all moved forward as a group, to go to the next camp site.

That is what the last trumpet is referring to in similitude. i.e. the heavenly sounding of a group of trumpets there in heaven. At which signaling, at the sound of the last trump of those trumpets, Jesus comes from heaven, with the souls of the dead in Christ, to redeem their bodies asleep in the dust of the earth to everlasting eternal bodies, reuniting with their souls with the glorified eternal life bodies redeemed from the dust of the earth -when the rapture/resurrection event takes place..

When would those who would supposedly die after that (during the tribulation, the thousand years and Satan's little season) be resurrected from the dead and where is the scripture that refers to their resurrection?

 

[Behold]

Just get away from all the Theology..., and look at one phrase...

This one...

"IN Christ".

Where is that? ?????

Where? ???

A.) its '"IN Christ".

How do you get IN there? ?????. As once you are IN there, you are become a"""CHRISTian"., who is "seated IN heavenly places.....IN Christ"" .


How do you get "IN.......Christ"?........>How do you get INTO Christ?.......>How does that happen?

Water Baptism? ????

Thats a no., no , no , no , and NO.

So, to be "IN CHRIST", is who goes UP when you are Raptured.

How to you get......'IN (Into) Christ".......as if you are not already in Christ, then you are going to hell., if you died right now.

So, the way you get "In Christ' is to do this.......as Jesus said...

= "You Must be BORN Again"......as that is your SPIRIT< and its born again, """IN Christ"...

What is that?

Its ETERNAL Spiritual Union with GOD.........Its to become ""ONE, with Jesus and God... ""

AND SO why does the RAPTURE occur only TO THOSE who are "IN CHRIST"?

A.) Its because """""" "JESUS = IS the Resurrection"""""".....

Jesus explains "IN Christ"..... llke this.....

that all of them may be ONE, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be IN US so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

New Living Translation
I pray that they will all be ONE, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.

English Standard Version
that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be IN Us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Berean Standard Bible
that all of them may be ONE, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Berean Literal Bible
that all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be IN US, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

King James Bible
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

New King James Version
that they all may be ONE, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

New American Standard Bible
that they may all be one; just as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be IN US, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

NASB 1995
that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

NASB 1977
that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.

Legacy Standard Bible
that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Amplified Bible
that they all may be one; just as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe [without any doubt] that You sent Me.

Christian Standard Bible
May they all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us, so that the world may believe you sent me.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
May they all be ONE, as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You. May they also be one IN US, so the world may believe You sent Me.

 

[Davidpt]

So, for the sake of clarification, would you agree that all dead OT saints as well as all dead NT saints are included in the group that Paul called "the dead in Christ"?

And once @Douggg clarifies that for us, and that we see that that is the case, I have something to submit that even @Douggg can't get around unless he chooses to be blatantly dishonest instead. Thus undeniably proving Pretrib can't remotely be Biblical since the following I will submit will undeniably prove it 100%. This is bit different than the thread I started, involving Daniel 9:27. I never undeniably 100% proved that I was correct. I still feel I am correct, yet that is beside the point, because in reality I never undeniably proved it. This is different, though.

What I will submit, then factoring in what @Douggg is already on record saying, does not agree with what @Douggg is saying. It disagrees big time.

 

[Douggg]

The same Holy Spirit who inspired Paul to write about the last trumpet inspired John to write about the 7th trumpet.

John wrote what he saw and heard while in heaven.

When would those who would supposedly die after that (during the tribulation, the thousand years and Satan's little season) be resurrected from the dead and where is the scripture that refers to their resurrection?

The great tribulation martyred saints will be resurrected at the beginning of the millennium in Revelation 20-4-6.

Persons who are born during the millennium and become Christians and die, will be resurrected for the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And once @Douggg clarifies that for us, and that we see that that is the case, I have something to submit that even @Douggg can't get around unless he chooses to be blatantly dishonest instead. Thus undeniably proving Pretrib can't remotely be Biblical since the following I will submit will undeniably prove it 100%. This is bit different than the thread I started, involving Daniel 9:27. I never undeniably 100% proved that I was correct. I still feel I am correct, yet that is beside the point, because in reality I never undeniably proved it. This is different, though.

I look forward to seeing whatever it is that you have to share that undeniably proves pretrib false. Forgive me for having a little bit of doubt as to whether or not you are correct that it 100% undeniably proves it since that is what you thought you were doing in that other thread and you now acknowledge that you "never undeniably 100% proved that" you were correct. But, I hope you are able to do that in this case. Then the post-trib vs. pre-trib debate can be put to rest forever. I'm kidding.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

John wrote what he saw and heard while in heaven.

The point still stands. What he saw and heard in heaven were things that the Holy Spirit already knew when inspiring Paul to write what he did in 1 Corinthians 15.

The great tribulation martyred saints will be resurrected at the beginning of the millennium in Revelation 20-4-6.

Persons who are born during the millennium and become Christians and die, will be resurrected for the Great White Throne Judgment.

So, unlike most premils, you believe Christians will be present at the Great White Throne judgment. That's interesting.

What would be the reason that groups of believers would be resurrected on three entirely separate occasions in the future? How does that line up with what Jesus said here:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Which of the supposed three future mass resurrections of believers do you believe Jesus was referring to here?

 

[Davidpt]

I look forward to seeing whatever it is that you have to share that undeniably proves pretrib false. Forgive me for having a little bit of doubt as to whether or not you are correct that it 100% undeniably proves it since that is what you thought you were doing in that other thread and you now acknowledge that you "never undeniably 100% proved that" you were correct. But, I hope you are able to do that in this case. Then the post-trib vs. pre-trib debate can be put to rest forever. I'm kidding.

The reason why I acknowledge, though I feel I am correct concerning Daniel 9:27, that I did not undeniably prove what I alleged is because that verse in question can apparently be understood in more than just one manner. Thus it is debatable. But as to what I have in regards to this topic, what I will be submitting once @Douggg clarifies what you asked in post #8, there is only one way to understand it and one way only, thus it is not debatable. Unless one is a Preterist or something. Who knows how they might understand it? But we are not talking about Preterists here. Therefore, it is irrelevant how they might understand it.

 

[Douggg]

So, for the sake of clarification, would you agree that all dead OT saints as well as all dead NT saints are included in the group that Paul called "the dead in Christ"?

Yes. Because Jesus descended into the place of the dead, preached the gospel of salvation, and set the captivities free.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The reason why I acknowledge, though I feel I am correct concerning Daniel 9:27, that I did not undeniably prove what I alleged is because that verse in question can apparently be understood in more than just one manner. Thus it is debatable.

Right. So, you shouldn't accuse others who disagree with you about that verse of being dishonest, right? Maybe you should take the word "dishonest" out of the title of that thread and out of any posts you made in that thread.

But as to what I have in regards to this topic, what I will be submitting once @Douggg clarifies what you asked in post #8, there is only one way to understand it and one way only, thus it is not debatable. Unless one is a Preterist or something. Who knows how they might understand it? But we are not talking about Preterists here. Therefore, it is irrelevant how they might understand it.

Of course. Doug is the furthest thing from a preterist as someone can be. So, we'll see what he says and go from there. Edit: He did respond to my post at this point, so I look forward to seeing your response.

 

[Davidpt]

Right. So, you shouldn't accuse others who disagree with you about that verse of being dishonest, right? Maybe you should take the word "dishonest" out of the title of that thread and out of any posts you made in that thread.

Not so fast there. All you all have done is make it impossible for me to undeniably have accomplished that, the fact you won't even acknowledge that verse 27 is meaning the 70th week, all of it.

Let me give you an example that might prove my point. Someone is debating with a JW about whether or not Jesus is God. The one that believes Jesus to be God, they believe they have undeniably proved it. But in reality, they didn't undeniably prove it, because if they had, the JW would then be agreeing with them not still disagreeing. Why won't the JW agree even though the person who believes Jesus to be God is correct?

Probably for the same reasons you all won't agree with me that all of verse 27 is meaning the 70th week. To do so means you have to admit you are wrong about some things. And if you are wrong about that, what else could you be wrong about. Now you have to somewhat start over, but no one wants to have to do that. It's much easier to just stick to what you are already arguing, even if what you are arguing is not correct though you believe it to be. I'm pretty sure that JWS believe they are correct that Jesus is not God. So what if they do? That doesn't make them correct if they are not even correct to begin with.

As to @Douggg, now that he has clarified what you asked, let's see what he does with it. I already know what he will do with it. I suspect he'll try and find a way around it by insisting that what I submit can be understood yet another way rather than only one way. Like you all do with Daniel 9:27, that you have to deny that verse 27 is the 70th week, all of it, in order to supposedly disprove any gaps in the 70 weeks.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not so fast there. All you all have done is make it impossible for me to undeniably have accomplished that, the fact you won't even acknowledge that verse 27 is meaning the 70th week, all of it.

LOL. Let's stop this nonsense, shall we? Let me just ask you this. Can you acknowledge that your understanding of Daniel 9:27 is your opinion and not a fact? I can acknowledge that in regards to my understanding of it. No matter how confident we are that our interpretations of that verse are correct, it's still just our interpretations and not facts. It's not as if our interpretations are no different than saying 2 + 2 = 4.

Let me give you an example that might prove my point. Someone is debating with a JW about whether or not Jesus is God. The one that believes Jesus to be God, they believe they have undeniably proved it. But in reality, they didn't undeniably prove it, because if they had, the JW would then be agreeing with them not still disagreeing. Why won't the JW agree even though the person who believes Jesus to be God is correct?

Probably for the same reasons you all won't agree with me that all of verse 27 is meaning the 70th week. To do so means you have to admit you are wrong about some things. And if you are wrong about that, what else could you be wrong about. Now you have to somewhat start over, but no one wants to have to do that. It's much easier to just stick to what you are already arguing, even if what you are arguing is not correct though you believe it to be. I'm pretty sure that JWS believe they are correct that Jesus is not God. So what if they do? That doesn't make them correct if they are not even correct to begin with.

We are talking about beliefs here, not facts. I'm simply saying that your interpretation of Daniel 9:27 is not a fact. Whether it's correct or not is irrelevant to my point. It's not a 100% provable fact. Can you not acknowledge that?

As to @Douggg, now that he has clarified what you asked, let's see what he does with it. I already know what he will do with it. I suspect he'll try and find a way around it by insisting that what I submit can be understood yet another way rather than only one way. Like you all do with Daniel 9:27, that you have to deny that verse 27 is the 70th week, all of it, in order to supposedly disprove any gaps in the 70 weeks.

He already responded, so I don't think he will say any more about it unless you ask him to do so. I thought you were waiting for him to respond to my post, which he did, and then you were going to proceed to respond to him with something that is 100% undeniable to disprove what he said?

 

[Davidpt]

Yes. Because Jesus descended into the place of the dead, preached the gospel of salvation, and set the captivities free.

Now that we got this sorted out and you on public record saying what you have, obviously, Daniel, for example, would be among the dead in Christ that rise first prior to great tribulation beginning. Thus we are not at the end of this age per this scenario, since there is at least another 3.5 years remaining, maybe even more, before we arrive at the final day of this age per this scenario.

Let's start with this.


Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


I bring up this passage to make a point about something relevant. This part---that they should rest yet for a little season---the keyword being this, 'rest'. Obviously, while they are still doing this, resting, it then equals this in the meantime--- them also which sleep in Jesus(1 Thessalonians 4:14) . Thus in this context
'rest' means 'sleep', and sleep means death, and death means being in disembodied state. Thus a bodily resurrection has not occurred yet while these in Revelation 6:11 are resting yet for a little season.

I said all of that in order to show that that is relevant per the following, the trump card verse that undeniably contradicts what you have been claiming about when OT saints bodily rise from the dead, that they do that prior to the beginning of great tribulation.

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days

As I have just shown, depending on context 'rest' is synonymous with death and being in a disembodied state until a bodily resurrection of the dead occurs. We already know from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 when one goes from resting, thus from a disembodied state, to that of a bodily state, thus no longer resting, but fully bodily alive again, this time for forever.

Paul tells us right here.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


Obviously, per this context to rise means to stand. Exactly what Daniel will be doing when the dead in Christ rise first. He will go from resting, thus being in a disembodied state to that of standing, thus in a risen state. As in a bodily state once again.

When do persons such as you insist that OT saints, such as Daniel, rise from the dead, though? Do you not insist this happens prior to the beginning of great tribulation? When does the man clothed in linen in Daniel 12, someone that it is impossible that they can lie, inform Daniel when it is that he will go from resting, thus from being in a disembodied state brought about by physical death, to that of standing, thus in a risen state, thus no longer bodily dead but bodily alive again?

Here is the plain as day answer that can only be understood one way and one way only----when the end be. Thus at the end of the days.

Are Pretibbers now going to move the goalpost and insist that the end of the days is actually meaning prior to great tribulation rather than after? "Sorry, our bad. We meant to say that all along". Of course not. Or at least I hope not since that would be rather bizarre of them to do so. How do they get out of this one then? There is no way out but to admit they have been wrong this entire time, therefore, they have to denounce Pretrib or any rapture they insist happens before the end of the days rather than at the end of the days. Daniel 12:13 tells us exactly when OT saints rise, and it clearly isn't meaning prior to great tribulation since it is ludicrous to think that is when the end of the days occur.