The Decoy Gospel

[marks]

He came to help us with both

he freed us from the penalty of sin (justification)

in doing so he showed his unfailing love. Which frees us from the power of sin

In recreating us as holy righteous beings, God has freed us from the corruption of sin, the guilt of sin, and the power of sin.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Paul does not consider his Law keeping to be the grounds of his righteousness, but that which comes through faith in Christ.

I would say also that Paul didn't consider future law keeping to be grounds for a future righteousness either.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

I would say also that Paul didn't consider future law keeping to be grounds for a future righteousness either.

Much love!

Keeping laws like sabbath and the kosher eating laws is what Paul had in mind concerning law keeping...which is Judaism. God is not looking for more of that kind of law keeping.

But the law of God which detects whether we are sinning or not is fulfilled through grace. We become more and more law keeping as we learn to walk by grace through faith.The carnal man is not able to bear the law. The law as a gauge shows the lack of power in a man that is without grace. A man under grace obeys the law so that the gauge of the law declares him blameless.

Grace fulfills the law...or it is just the flesh at work...trying and failing.

We are to be under grace not the law. Led by the Spirit...not trying to get better by our moral convictions.

So then it is easy to misunderstand Paul...because of his ambiguous use of the word "law".

Law can mean the law of Moses...the law of God, the law of sin, the law of faith....etc.

So people twist Paul's meaning away from the very clear biblical instructions in order to make a new lower standard that God supposedly expects from Gentiles. As if God rejected a failed Jewish people for a failed Gentile people.

Rather He is looking for fruit from each...and not getting any for the most part from either.

 

[CharismaticLady]

All of the above, like I said that spirit in you cannot sin, your flesh is a different matter, He didnt come to save your flesh. But as I said to your mate, for someone who supposedly overcome sin you are very focused on it.

Anyone who is in the flesh, is not in the Spirit, and doesn't belong to Christ.

 

[CharismaticLady]

That is a good question, where is your faith in Christ, all you have done so far is condemn the whole world because it doesnt live up to your standard, you said grace is decietful and so demonized grace and made God like satan, you demand perfection from imperfect people , the whole reason why Christ went to that cross, the whole reason why grace is a gift, that you demand we pay for, it all ended at taht time when Jesus looked up and said. It is finished:, that is when it all ended, Christ didnt do half a job as you and @Candidus and @CharismaticLady seem to think, it is done, sin has being done away with, but you all love to stand there and cry out. look at ud =s God we are not like all those i-other sinners, but you see they can all see through your facades, God is not blind, you turn His precious lambs from Him, you cause men to stumble, you make Him out to be a hard taskmaster, you tread grace underfoot.

We all became righteous when we put on His righteousness it doent fail like you think it does, He cam full of grace and truth not just enough.

Anyone who has been born again of the Spirit is just like @Candidus and me. But few there are who find it.

 

[Episkopos]

Anyone who is in the flesh, is not in the Spirit, and doesn't belong to Christ.

I don't see things that black and white. A man can walk in the weakness of the flesh but yet be led by the Spirit. And there is a process to maturity...going in and out of the Spirit. Most faithful Christians are in this category..and the reason they don't understand this being translated up and then falling back down... is because they have never really been to Zion even once.

There are 2 ways to come at following Christ.

One...we follow from a certain distance...in obedience. Being LED by the Spirit as in the wilderness..as the Israelites were. It is a hard walk and requires lots of prayer...watching and praying..fasting and sacrifice. As long as Christ is in a person they are the children of God...whether obedient or disobedient. God will sort these out later at the BEMA seat judgment. We can follow very closely with the gifts of the Spirit in use. Or walk with Jesus almost out of sight.

So it is easy to get into the hard walk.

Then there is the full blown walk in the Spirit. Very hard to get into and then very easy once you're in. It's hard to get into the easy walk. As in...My burden is light. From there there is NO sin possible. It is walk in the resurrection life of Christ having been translated into Zion...the kingdom of God. (and so very few have experienced this nowadays)

There is no sin of omission possible IN the Spirit because you are crucified and it is Christ doing the works through you. No longer I. And those works are being done so your soul can learn the way of Christ. So as we go in and out of that walk we grow into His likeness as Christ is formed in us in maturity. It will take a number of goings in and out before one learns the secret of abiding in Christ always. THAT is the high calling that Paul sought with everything he had. He continued to run so as to WIN CHRIST. Who knows about that nowadays?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Anyone who has been born again of the Spirit is just like @Candidus and me. But few there are who find it.

We would rather be like Paul and John

 

[CharismaticLady]

I don't see things that black and white. A man can walk in the weakness of the flesh but yet be led by the Spirit. And there is a process to maturity...going in and out of the Spirit. Most faithful Christians are in this category..and the reason they don't understand this being translated up and then falling back down... is because they have never really been to Zion even once.

There are 2 ways to come at following Christ.

One...we follow from a certain distance...in obedience. Being LED by the Spirit as in the wilderness..as the Israelites were. It is a hard walk and requires lots of prayer...watching and praying..fasting and sacrifice. As long as Christ is in a person they are the children of God...whether obedient or disobedient. God will sort these out later at the BEMA seat judgment. We can follow very closely with the gifts of the Spirit in use. Or walk with Jesus almost out of sight.

So it is easy to get into the hard walk.

Then there is the full blown walk in the Spirit. Very hard to get into and then very easy once you're in. It's hard to get into the easy walk. As in...My burden is light. From there there is NO sin possible. It is walk in the resurrection life of Christ having been translated into Zion...the kingdom of God. (and so very few have experienced this nowadays)

There is no sin of omission possible IN the Spirit because you are crucified and it is Christ doing the works through you. No longer I. And those works are being done so your soul can learn the way of Christ. So as we go in and out of that walk we grow into His likeness as Christ is formed in us in maturity. It will take a number of goings in and out before one learns the secret of abiding in Christ always. THAT is the high calling that Paul sought with everything he had. He continued to run so as to WIN CHRIST. Who knows about that nowadays?

I don't believe in "going in and out of the Spirit." You can grieve the Spirit, but the Spirit is still there. But quenching the Spirit is apostasy, and the Spirit leaves for good. The unpardonable sin. To commit the unpardonable sin against the Spirit, you must first have Him, like Ananias and Sapphira.

 

[marks]

We become more and more law keeping as we learn to walk by grace through faith.

Rather, we become more and more loving. The focus on the "rule of law" puts our minds in the way of the flesh. The focus on loving others is our life in the Spirit, I think.

Grace fulfills the law...

That's an interesting thought. I know the Bible says that "love is the fulfillment of the law". Grace fulfills the law?

But the law of God which detects whether we are sinning

This is another intriguing thought. Law which detects sin? That which is not of faith is sin. Not sure what you mean, a "law that detects whether you are sinning". God of course knows, and He reveals to us by His Spirit.

We are to be under grace not the law. Led by the Spirit...not trying to get better by our moral convictions.

With this I agree. Although our "moral convictions" as you call them may just the same be the work of the Holy Spirit in us, as we learn what is good and right, and hold to that.

But yes, the heart is to live in a reconciled relationship with God. And in that we will be walking in the Spirit.

Law can mean the law of Moses...the law of God, the law of sin, the law of faith....etc.

Also agreed, we do well to specify what law we are talking about.

So people twist Paul's meaning away from the very clear biblical instructions in order to make a new lower standard that God expects from Gentiles. As if God rejected a failed Jewish people for a failed Gentile people.

Rather He is looking for fruit from each...and not getting any for the most part from either.

On this part, when I consider the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, this is so all encompassing, so personalized, and so effectual, I personally think of anything else as a lower standard.

I agree with you, the bar is raised, I just think it is raised in a different way than what you suggest, and in an actually far higher way. Judging God's children according to any Law other than the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is to impose the wrong standard, even if someone Were actually able to understand both that law, and the person, though none truly would be a fit judge.

But that's not even the point.

The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is something that is between He and thee. We each have our own personal relationship with God, assuming we actually do, and God has His requirements of me, and I am accountable to Him.

There's no room for anyone else there.

As far as the fruitfulness . . . I'm sorry that you seem to be missing the joy of witnessing fruitfulness in people's lives. I think what we see often has to do with what direction we are looking, and maybe what kinds of seeds we are planting, what we are watering with.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Anyone who has been born again of the Spirit is just like @Candidus and me. But few there are who find it.

There ya go. One fell swoop. We are all judged unbelievers.

 

[Episkopos]

The Christian life is very hard to understand for we humans. It takes a lot of revelation and patience.

here are a few things I've noticed..even though this will not concern most people. There are paradoxes and conundrums such as....

1. You can be alive to the Spirit without being IN the Spirit. (if we have a living spirit)

As in

"If we are alive to the Spirit let us also WALK in the Spirit."

So then if Christ is in us...we belong to the household of God. But that doesn't mean we will be faithful and remain with Him. Quite the opposite. There is still just a remnant of Gentiles together with a remnant of Jews who will make up the Bride of Christ. We are His children when we are at least LED by the Spirit. But to be HIS we also need to be crucified. No longer I.


2. You can be in Christ without abiding in Christ.

Being in the Body of Christ is one thing. You can be disobedient and still be in the church. But to abide in Christ means to walk EXACTLY as He walked.

"He who says he abides in Him ought to walk even as He walked."

3. There is no sin in Christ.

When John says that anyone who sins has NEVER known Christ...that sounds pretty far. But what I believe John is saying is that if you have never known the walk in His perfection above sin...then you have not yet KNOWN Christ.

It is impossible to sin in Christ. In Him is no sin.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

4. To be led by the Spirit is not the same as being IN the Spirit.

The Israelites in the desert were led by the Spirit. They followed the pillar and the cloud. We follow the still small voice.

But when one is in the Spirit it is the Spirit that guides directly. No need to hear anything. Jesus is doing the driving. No need for directions.

 

[Episkopos]

I don't believe in "going in and out of the Spirit." You can grieve the Spirit, but the Spirit is still there. But quenching the Spirit is apostasy, and the Spirit leaves for good. The unpardonable sin. To commit the unpardonable sin against the Spirit, you must first have Him, like Ananias and Sapphira.

You understand being led by the Spirit...but have you walked in Zion?

So you mustn't limit the walk IN Christ as we are translated INTO the kingdom realm...to walk exactly as Jesus walked.

But look closely at the instructions of Jesus...

John 10: 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Also John in Rev.1 states that he was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. Now why say that if a person is ALWAYS IN the Spirit?

Then when all is done we will have no need to go out anymore...

Rev. 3:12 Him that overcomeswill I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

 

[Candidus]

Compete sanctification. That we always walk in faith, therefore always do God's will, that's what I mean.

Thanks for clarifying what you mean by the question, or "sinless perfection." Working from your definition. I can agree that one is able through the grace of God, not to "willfully transgress a known law of God." In this, it does not make one perfect in knowledge, nor does it make perfection of judgement, for one could innocently "borrow" a pen, get home and not know that they actually stole that pen, or even remember who and when they stole that pen. There is sin as a act or intent (knowledge) and a sin of ignorance. In Scripture, God does not demand that we are to be equal to Him in perfect knowledge, and performance. That would be absurd; it would make a definition of sin to be utterly unavoidable, even by breathing imperfectly. Scripture says that we can avoid sin, so if we cast the net so broad, many passages become self-contradictory or impossible commands. If we have a good Biblical working definition of sin, it will not contradict many of the 41 instances if "sin" as a verb in the New Testament.

I do not know the person or the context in which the person you spoke of as claiming to be "sinless." Possibly, he was not working within the definitions of "absolute perfection" as if he were God himself, but knows that he has not "willfully violated a know law of God." Now, I would never use the term "sinless" to describe that state, but to use a Biblical term of "does not sin." There is a difference in Scripture between not sinning (properly defined) and absolute perfection. To be clear, one can have a perfect motive, and perfect obedience to what they know is right and wrong, and still have error in judgement. You speak of "progression," which is different from "maturity." Purity and maturity are different. One can be limited in knowledge, yet be pure. Maturity takes time and progresses. Just because God purifies and sanctifies and individual, they can still be completely obedient to God as far as they know, yet God may convict them of that sin at a later date. They were not "sinning" in the realm of knowledge and rebellious action, yet they may have been violating something that God said was sin, but they did not know it. The issue is knowledge and motive, yet I would never say that those so-called sin, or violations did not need the ever-present Atonement or Jesus Christ to keep them reconciled to God. No one, in and of themselves, can purify their own hearts apart from the Holy Spirit working that grace within them.

I knew a man that smoked, even after becoming a Christian. Other believers heaped judgement and condemnation upon him, and yet he felt no conviction that it was wrong. A couple of years later as he prayed, God struck him with the conviction that it was "sin" for him. He never smoked another cigarette. Was he "willfully violating a know law of God" before that? No! Would he have sinned if he refused to obey God's clear conviction for him? Yes!

I cannot speak for others on the issue, but in established doctrinal history, this is what most people mean by "not sinning," sanctification, or Christian Perfection. As for "sinless perfection" and what people seem to mean by that, it does not resemble anything that I know of as a real doctrine that anybody has ever taught. That is why I consider it a strawman argument.

I have never seen or met a person that thought that they were God, perfect as God, or never sinned in the sense of absolute Divine Perfection. Ironically. however, I do see those that claim that they do not sin in spirit, and that sin is only in the flesh, when applied to Christian doctrine, is nothing more that sugar-coated fiction from the heresy of Gnosticism.

 

[Candidus]

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

It is a strange irony, that this passage in John's First Epistle written to attack and correct the Gnostics in the Church, is used by modern Gnostics in the Church to teach the opposite point of what John says! They use Gnosticism's bifurcation of the Body (Matter, evil) does not affect the spirit; therefore, the body sins, but not their spirit.

A common Gnostic doctrine was explained this way: You have a pure gold ring, nothing is impure in it! You have a pile of manure (indicating created "matter," the Body)... if you place the pure ring into the dung, the dung has no effect on the ring; it remains pure gold.

This is a response that some Gnostic influenced "Christian" actually gave me concerning 1 Jn. 3:9.
"Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin. Well, where doesn’t he commit sin? In the spirit. In the seed given from God he does not commit sin. The spiritual seed is incorruptible. You cannot sin in the spirit. But, we know that we all sin. When we sin where is the sin committed? The sin is committed in the flesh. The flesh is corruptible seed. The flesh is the first birth. The spirit is the second birth which is of incorruptible seed."

This is not Christianity, or Biblical Exposition. It is purely Gnostic and a corruption of what Scripture teaches.

 

[marks]

Then there is the full blown walk in the Spirit. Very hard to get into and then very easy once you're in. It's hard to get into the easy walk. As in...My burden is light. From there there is NO sin possible. It is walk in the resurrection life of Christ having been translated into Zion...the kingdom of God. (and so very few have experienced this nowadays)

There is no sin of omission possible IN the Spirit because you are crucified and it is Christ doing the works through you. No longer I. And those works are being done so your soul can learn the way of Christ. So as we go in and out of that walk we grow into His likeness as Christ is formed in us in maturity. It will take a number of goings in and out before one learns the secret of abiding in Christ always. THAT is the high calling that Paul sought with everything he had.

What I have found taught by the Bible, and what I have learned in my life, is that we enter this through faith, in the same faith that we were saved, a complete reliance on what Jesus has done for us to reconcile us to God.

When we rest in that reconciliation, we stop living according to the knowledge of good and evil, and begin to live according to the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

To think that our reconciliation is less then complete, and that we must add to it, or secure it, or keep it, or whatever we want to say, thinking that way is to think that we have to perform to attain to it, which of necessity focuses our minds on judging our performance, living according to the knowledge of good and evil.

This is purely by faith in Christ.

We can spend years working to improve our character, our temperment, our disposition, but by fully trusting in Christ, we can walk in His Spirit Now.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

It is a strange irony, that this passage in John's First Epistle written to attack and correct the Gnostics in the Church, is used by modern Gnostics in the Church to teach the opposite point of what John says! They use Gnosticism's bifurcation of the Body (Matter, evil) does not affect the spirit; therefore, the body sins, but not their spirit.

A common Gnostic doctrine was explained this way: You have a pure gold ring, nothing is impure in it! You have a pile of manure (indicating created "matter," the Body)... if you place the pure ring into the dung, the dung has no effect on the ring; it remains pure gold.

This is a response that some Gnostic influenced "Christian" actually gave me concerning 1 Jn. 3:9.
"Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin. Well, where doesn’t he commit sin? In the spirit. In the seed given from God he does not commit sin. The spiritual seed is incorruptible. You cannot sin in the spirit. But, we know that we all sin. When we sin where is the sin committed? The sin is committed in the flesh. The flesh is corruptible seed. The flesh is the first birth. The spirit is the second birth which is of incorruptible seed."

This is not Christianity, or Biblical Exposition. It is purely Gnostic and a corruption of what Scripture teaches.

What makes things so difficult is that we have an established kingdom of truth being offered to us...and then we are (a few of us) fumbling our way into it by fits and starts. So then what does the transition look like?

Are we instantly perfected (corrected from perfect)? Of course not. Are we instantly mature? Again no. So no doubt if we live long enough we will fall from that presence and sin. Our sheer ignorance will guarantee that over time.

But we can be instantly forgiven and purified...and remain so if we remain in the presence of God...IN the light. Again, it takes maturity, resolve and consecration to NOT be fooled out of that abiding place.

Otherwise we will go back to the state of immaturity we were before...back to the flesh again... but maybe a little wiser for the experience.

I tend to go easy on people...knowing my own weakness and failures in the past...(and even possibly the present?) until they make outrageous claims based on half-truths and lies that show they won't lift a finger towards seeking God or even take the race of faith seriously. These are not being fit in any way for kingdom life.

So I draw the line there...mostly ignoring the foolish comments that are based on making God to be powerless to establish us in a holy kingdom before His holy presence.

So I do believe in perfection...and have known that perfection. But that perfection is in no man...but Christ. As we abide IN Him we partake of His holiness, His life, His perfection.

But who in our time can testify to that?

Peace

 

[marks]

this passage in John's First Epistle

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Hi Candidus,

How do you understand this passage?

Much love!

 

[mjrhealth]

This is an example of what happens when you marry Gnostic Philosophy with Biblical interpretation.

We ar enot here to interpret the bible are here to learn from Christ. Ih He is not enoiugh for you than you have nothing.

 

[mjrhealth]

Those that have replaced Christianity with Gnosticism cannot see it.

Those who replaced Jesus and God with the bible may never know the difference

 

[mjrhealth]

Anyone who has been born again of the Spirit is just like @Candidus and me. But few there are who find it.

Its not about you and @Candidus He didnt ask us to be like you did He, That is pride and boasting.