The difference in churches

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Philip James

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Speaking as a Jewish monotheist, I don’t find it convincing.

Hello Matthias,

By Jewish monotheist do you mean you reject Christ as Messiah? Or something else? I wouldnt want to misunderstand you.

What do you find unconvincing? That Christ and His Church are One? Or that His Church is identified with those who participate in the One Cup and the One loaf that Jesus gave to the apostles..

Pax et Bonum
 
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Matthias

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Hello Matthias,

By Jewish monotheist do you mean you reject Christ as Messiah? Or something else? I wouldnt want to misunderstand you.

Thank you. I don’t reject Jesus as the Messiah; I believe that he is.

What do you find unconvincing? That Christ and His Church are One?

No. I’m convinced that is so. We are in agreement on that.

Or that His Church is identified with those who participate in the One Cup and the One loaf that Jesus gave to the apostles..

Pax et Bonum

No. I’m also convinced that is so. We are in agreement on that.

What I don’t find unconvincing is beginning with the Church is Catholic and working backward. With that as the starting point, the logic is clear and easy to follow. If the Church is Catholic from the beginning then, as you said, by definition the head of the Church is Catholic. I don’t think this fits the historical facts.

What I find convincing is beginning with Jesus and working forward. With that as the starting point, the logic is also clear and easy to follow. If Jesus is Jewish then, by definition, the Church he founded in the beginning is Jewish. I think this fits the historical facts.

Just as it’s indisputable that the Church / Christianity began as a sect of Judaism, within Judaism, it’s also indisputable that the Church / Christianity eventually parted from Judaism.
 
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Alfredthefifth

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Has multiple posts posts that use repeatedly take individual verses, one verse at a time. A later verse in front of an early verse a verse one verse at time out many books totally out of context to support THE CHURCHES total authority.
Why not use a chapter in continuity? In context?
Why dozens and dozens of scriptures taken totally out of context and rearranged to be used out of order.

Anything MAN wants to do contrary to God's will can be justified in this manner.

Ephesians 2
(skipping because I am using a cellphone sceen)
Part of verse 5) it is by grace you have been saved
8 and 9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through fait -and this is not from yourselves it is a gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.

When I read the entire chapter these two verses as I have taught them read the same alone as they do as read as the entire chapter. But I also note that Paul writes twice, it is by Grace you are saved

Mathew chapter 7, I went here for two verses.
1 and 2
Do not judge or you to will be judged
2) for in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured against you.
The entire chapter wraps around these two verses even though the stories are frequently used as stand alone scriptures.



I have to use all of Mathew 25 even though I skip to verse 40
Truly I tell you. What you have for the least you have done for me

In getting to where I am right now I have read, spent quite a bit of time reading the Bible.
The First man picked by man through casting lots was welcomed in but no mention of laying on of hands, the first mention of laying on of hands is the commissioning of the 7 to handle the money and food in earthly needs ministry.

Paul writes of those who have entered into Christ Jesus simply by hearing rumor, you heard of my words, and did not just entered into Jesus Christ, but the Spirit entered in, but may the Spirit, HOLY SPIRIT continue in you always, as it has bequn. I have yet to find Paul telling these, STOP I HAVEN'T PUT MY HANDS UPON YOU.
Blessed are you that have received faith through the word, and likewise the Spirit.

Pick a starting point and staying in continuity, show me what took several posts of jumbled up first last last first and middle who know where scriptures to prove an untruth.

As several of my teachers showed if you selectively pick your verses you can fully prove God is a chicken. Not that he is but that is the danger of out of context selectivity.


Alfredthefifth
 

Alfredthefifth

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In reading the judge not lest you are judged.

And looking at the Judgements of herecy, not only herecy but damnation pronounced on Theologians that in study of the Bible came to a different faith then those pronouncing judgement.

I have to wonder if those judges have been judged as they judged. And if they have been barred from heaven by their Judgements.

If this doesn't scare one into knowing context and maintaining continuity? What Judgements are waiting for all of us.

Jesus often convicted the Pharisees because of Scripture parsing selective application ways.

When the Pharisees threw out, "We are children of Abraham and have Moses and the Prophets!" What did Jesus say?

What if Jesus says, Hands, I tell you those hands are a millstone around your neck. The Spirit doesn't need them!

From studying the bible

Alfredthefifth
 

Philip James

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Just as it’s indisputable that the Church / Christianity began as a sect of Judaism, within Judaism, it’s also indisputable that the Church / Christianity eventually parted from Judaism.

Hello Matthias,

The Church is the fulfillment of Judaism. God wed His people as He promised He would do.
What mercy, what Grace, that the gentiles were welcomed into that union!

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum
 

theefaith

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Has multiple posts posts that use repeatedly take individual verses, one verse at a time. A later verse in front of an early verse a verse one verse at time out many books totally out of context to support THE CHURCHES total authority.
Why not use a chapter in continuity? In context?
Why dozens and dozens of scriptures taken totally out of context and rearranged to be used out of order.

Anything MAN wants to do contrary to God's will can be justified in this manner.

Ephesians 2
(skipping because I am using a cellphone sceen)
Part of verse 5) it is by grace you have been saved
8 and 9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through fait -and this is not from yourselves it is a gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.

When I read the entire chapter these two verses as I have taught them read the same alone as they do as read as the entire chapter. But I also note that Paul writes twice, it is by Grace you are saved

Mathew chapter 7, I went here for two verses.
1 and 2
Do not judge or you to will be judged
2) for in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured against you.
The entire chapter wraps around these two verses even though the stories are frequently used as stand alone scriptures.



I have to use all of Mathew 25 even though I skip to verse 40
Truly I tell you. What you have for the least you have done for me

In getting to where I am right now I have read, spent quite a bit of time reading the Bible.
The First man picked by man through casting lots was welcomed in but no mention of laying on of hands, the first mention of laying on of hands is the commissioning of the 7 to handle the money and food in earthly needs ministry.

Paul writes of those who have entered into Christ Jesus simply by hearing rumor, you heard of my words, and did not just entered into Jesus Christ, but the Spirit entered in, but may the Spirit, HOLY SPIRIT continue in you always, as it has bequn. I have yet to find Paul telling these, STOP I HAVEN'T PUT MY HANDS UPON YOU.
Blessed are you that have received faith through the word, and likewise the Spirit.

Pick a starting point and staying in continuity, show me what took several posts of jumbled up first last last first and middle who know where scriptures to prove an untruth.

As several of my teachers showed if you selectively pick your verses you can fully prove God is a chicken. Not that he is but that is the danger of out of context selectivity.


Alfredthefifth

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away

Nothing here about context?
Even on word is still the word of God!
 

Alfredthefifth

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2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away

Nothing here about context?
Even on word is still the word of God!

All scriptures are God breathed, yes that is true.

But when one scripture, one verse out of a chapter of commanding a stop is used as permission or a justification to do what God is ordering stopped? Where is God's word? WHAT is God's word?

In context all of God's ordered stop, but one verse says go? And yes this happens! What have you done to God's word?

So you take one verse and do what suits you.
I will take the whole and wonder at the fool, you or me.

That is why there are so many churches!

Alfredthefifth
 

theefaith

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All scriptures are God breathed, yes that is true.

(As are the apostles Jn 20:21-23)

But when one scripture, one verse out of a chapter of commanding a stop is used as permission or a justification to do what God is ordering stopped? Where is God's word? WHAT is God's word?

how does the chapter or context of Jn 14 make Jesus not the way the truth and the life??? Jn 14:6

no book, chapter, context, exegesis or teaching can do so!

In context all of God's ordered stop, but one verse says go? And yes this happens! What have you done to God's word?

So you take one verse and do what suits you.
I will take the whole and wonder at the fool, you or me.

That is why there are so many churches!

Alfredthefifth

There are so many church’s (sects the tradition of men cos only Christ has authority to found the one true church Matt 16:18-19 Jn 10:16) cos satan instigated the great protest of Luther in total rebellion against God, Christ, and His church!
 

Alfredthefifth

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There are so many church’s (sects the tradition of men cos only Christ has authority to found the one true church Matt 16:18-19 Jn 10:16) cos satan instigated the great protest of Luther in total rebellion against God, Christ, and His church!

The catholic church of Luther's day was so far from the truth that their was no possibility of SALVATION without change.

Simple question

Would that catholic church of Luther's day recognize the catholic church of today?

An anecdote
A neighbor my family had for nearly forty years, a good Catholic woman about once a year complained about what the Catholic Church just changed.

When the Church removed her Patron Saint from saint hood, she told my mom, "I ought to just join you in the Lutheran Church, because this where the Catholic Church is headed!"

Luther was labeled a heretic and rebel by men using the wisdom of men. Men that refused to use the Bible against him! Luther holding up the Bible said all that I am is in this, the catholic priests left the room proclaiming herecy.

Jesus using scriptures sent the Pharisees away,

Steven was stoned for using scriptures against the high priests, Sadducees and Pharisees. Men that turned God's holy word to their own devices.

The Catholic Church is closer to Luther's reformation today then ever before does that mean the Church is becoming the heretic?


Alfredthefifth
 

theefaith

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The catholic church of Luther's day was so far from the truth that their was no possibility of SALVATION without change.

“same possibility and means of salvation as the apostles provided and as the church still provides”

Simple question

Would that catholic church of Luther's day recognize the catholic church of today?

“what is the Catholic Church today on you’re view?”

An anecdote
A neighbor my family had for nearly forty years, a good Catholic woman about once a year complained about what the Catholic Church just changed.

When the Church removed her Patron Saint from saint hood, she told my mom, "I ought to just join you in the Lutheran Church, because this where the Catholic Church is headed!"

Luther was labeled a heretic and rebel by men using the wisdom of men. Men that refused to use the Bible against him! Luther holding up the Bible said all that I am is in this, the catholic priests left the room proclaiming herecy. (Heresy)

“you are confusing the church founded by Christ on Peter apostles the apostles with the apostate modernist Vatican 2 sect”

Jesus using scriptures sent the Pharisees away,

“Jesus Christ is God and taught with authority!”

Steven was stoned for using scriptures against the high priests, Sadducees and Pharisees. Men that turned God's holy word to their own devices.

“Stephen called men father Many times in acts 7”

The Catholic Church is closer to Luther's reformation today then ever before does that mean the Church is becoming the heretic?

“The apostle Vatican 2 sect? Yes!”

Alfredthefifth
 

Alfredthefifth

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I see you deflect and answer to the side.

So yes or no.
Would if you took a Catholic priest from today to 1500 and took a Catholic priest from today to 1500 would they recognize the chuch?

Another yes or no.
Would an a Disciple taught by Jesus recognize the Catholic church of 1500 or today?

I have no doubt that few of the protestant churches would pass muster.
But in reading the Bible and not just verses I cannot believe that the students taught by Jesus himself would recognize the Catholic Church.

Alfredthefifth
 
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theefaith

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I see you deflect and answer to the side.

So yes or no.
Would if you took a Catholic priest from today to 1500 and took a Catholic priest from today to 1500 would they recognize the chuch?

Another yes or no.
Would an a Disciple taught by Jesus recognize the Catholic church of 1500 or today?

I have no doubt that few of the protestant churches would pass muster.
But in reading the Bible and not just verses I cannot believe that the students taught by Jesus himself would recognize the Catholic Church.

Alfredthefifth

please read the early church fathers, they were very much catholic!

pic a doctrine and we can examine it from scripture alone if you like
 

Alfredthefifth

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If you don't know what church I pick you are blind.

But then you proved this in jumbled up text of picked fruit that I am a heretic.

I would like to go through the bible chapter by chapter book by book with anyone. Because if the story doesn't support one portion of the story in full context, the chapter the book will not either.

I am a Christian that not very long ago had to fully embrace being a Christian that studied much of Luther's work, even beyond that which a Lutheran Church wanted me to study. In fully embracing being a Christian I stepped aside from being Lutheran even though Luther's work is my anchor to Christianity.

You say I follow a heretic.
If this is true how come Ephesians 2 is still found in every Catholic bible in every Catholic church.
I have read Ephesians 2 several times recently as well as Ephesians 1 and 3. This doesn't change the message of

GRACE alone through FAITH alone as a great gift OF GOD, that man has no part in accomplishing, so don't let any one boast!

If you want to bring the Bible yes I will study with you!
If you want to play with specially picked to jumbled in a particular order but out context with the verses around those. That will be a waste of time, so no I will not meet in this place.


Alfredthefifth
 

theefaith

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If you don't know what church I pick you are blind.

But then you proved this in jumbled up text of picked fruit that I am a heretic.

I would like to go through the bible chapter by chapter book by book with anyone. Because if the story doesn't support one portion of the story in full context, the chapter the book will not either.

I am a Christian that not very long ago had to fully embrace being a Christian that studied much of Luther's work, even beyond that which a Lutheran Church wanted me to study. In fully embracing being a Christian I stepped aside from being Lutheran even though Luther's work is my anchor to Christianity.

You say I follow a heretic.
If this is true how come Ephesians 2 is still found in every Catholic bible in every Catholic church.
I have read Ephesians 2 several times recently as well as Ephesians 1 and 3. This doesn't change the message of

GRACE alone through FAITH alone as a great gift OF GOD, that man has no part in accomplishing, so don't let any one boast!

If you want to bring the Bible yes I will study with you!
If you want to play with specially picked to jumbled in a particular order but out context with the verses around those. That will be a waste of time, so no I will not meet in this place.


Alfredthefifth

don’t have a spell! I’m not attacking you personal or making any judgments about you!

ok Eph 2

Eph 2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

first point: yes those who are saved are saved by grace!

First question: what is meant by quickend? Verses 1 & 5

Second question: is redemption, justification, sanctification, and salvation all the same or are they
all different?
 

Wrangler

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What is the difference between the catholic church and the ortodox church? Also from which countries do those two churches come from? And where does the Protestant church come from? And how have all of these churches evolved? Please explain all of this and I await some replies.
I quickly perused the other replies as I'm late to the party. I'll provide some direct but concise answers. Let's start at the beginning ...

t = 36 - 385 AD
While Christianity grew relatively quickly, transportation and communication across the known world was extremely slow. Naturally, local customs and cultural norms and many languages influenced how the Gospel was expressed and interpreted. While fairly heterogeneous for these reasons, along with the main competition for people's hearts being Pagan religions, the Christian church was united, known as the Apostolic Orthodox and Catholic Church. This peaked in the 4th century when the church Bishops came together (5 in particular of large seas) compiled what we now call the Bible as well as the Nicene Creed.

t = 4c - 12c
As the centuries past, the external pressures on the seas as well as the organic evolution of the societies put pressure on the world, at large and the church. This period of time is ominously called, The Dark Ages. You asked about where these countries come from. One Bishop was at the seat of power, Rome, in the West. The other Bishops were in Africa and the East.

In a desperate attempt to keep the empire, the Roman sea, being the representative of the official Church of empire, sought to secure the north western border with Pagans. To win them over, they appealed to their religion and unilaterally changed the Nicene Creed. See the Filioque. The tactic failed politically and theologically.

The Seat of Power moved from Rome to Constantinople and Western Rome collapsed. Eastern Roman Empire, what we call Byzantine Empire endured. However, the other 4 Bishops were unconcerned about the politics of the West, were insulted that one Bishop presumed the authority to unilaterally change what 5 Bishops had agreed to regarding the creed. Egos, giant egos were also involved. All these stresses - political, cultural, theological - eventually lead to what is known as The Great Schism in the 12 century. The West became known as the Roman Catholic Church, ruled by the Pope. The East became known as the Eastern Orthodox Church, who continue to be ruled by several Patriarchs.

t = 12c to 15c
The arrogance and corruption of the Roman Catholic Church continued for another 4 centuries. The Church and State in Europe were competing for supremacy. On the European continent, it was Martin Luther, who famously posted his 95 theses of specific church abuses that is credited for formerly igniting the Protestant Reformation, which really became a breaking away and did little to actually reform the corrupt Roman Catholic Church. The King of England, Henry VIII provided the military and political support for the Reform movement, when he proclaimed independence from the Roman Church and himself as the newly formed Anglican Church (Church of England). Many other countries split with Rome and there were many wars, mainly over the Church or State supremacy question.

It is not a coincidence that the Reformation, Luther's theses occurred shortly after the printing press. Information and communication increased dramatically due to the printing press technology. The emperor of France, Napoleon finally defeated the Holy Roman Empire founded 1,000 years earlier by Charlemagne. The State won over the crumbling church power base.

t = 15c to present
The proliferation of reform or break away has continued for the last half millennia. Such flowering is often criticized but I see such flowering as unparalleled in all religion as a direct application of Paul being "all things to all people so some may be saved."

Hope this answers your question.
 
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Alfredthefifth

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@Wrangler

You mention Henry the VIII
At his orders most of Roman Catholic church was put to death. But every now and then one comes to an Abby that is not in ruins. It is said that the monks, nuns and lesser priests sewd the king for pardon to convert to the Church of England. These people helped keep the Church service from changing as the became as protestant as Luther.

You quote Paul as being all things to all people,

Yet Luther copied him in that he said attribute nothing to me it is all God's word and works.

But I change nothing by my comments

Alfredthefifth
 

Alfredthefifth

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The Apostle Paul, converted by Christ himself.
Writes of preaching The Crucified and living Lord Jesus Christ.

For three years I (Paul) taught the Salvation of Christ, before I even went to Jerusalem, and even then only two Disciples can recognive me.
Paul met one Disciple but there was one other nearby.

In his letters he conveys two truths
The free salvation by spirit in grace and faith both freely given by God completed by our risen Savior.

And to beware and wary even as Jesus taught of rules created by men that come between yourself and God.

Martin Luther in reading and studying all scriptures came to faith by grace in scriptures
He came to the truth that THE CATHOLIC church was nothing but rules of men. That as Jesus said "beware of the rules and traditions of men,,"
Paul wrote frequently about those that would apply rules that bind people away from God.

Paul THREE YEARS into his ministry, conferred with a Disciple, and one other came in to know him, does that negate the three years of ministry? And there is no mention of laying on of handes.

But even earlier when Mathias was chosen by casting lots there is no mention of laying on of hands.

The first mention of laying on of hands was when 7 men were chosen to do the thankless earthly ministry of providing for the needy and widows. This not spreading God's word but feeding clothing and providing shelter. These men became the financial secretaries of the church, money handlers with all the earthly tempations.

But back to Paul in all his writings are a component of, The rules made and applied by men, these bind you away from the spirit that grants grace through faith, both the Gifts of God.

When the church declared Luther a heretic. It was by it's rules of men that bind men from Grace.
We can debate from now on but some truth should be evident.

One is that when the Disciples asked? Lord teach us to pray?
Jesus went straight to our heavenly father.
Our father that art in heaven.
No where did he bring in Moses or Prophets , what would have been the saints in his day.
But Jesus is busy he might be to busy to hear! But God is everywhere, he meets us right where we are! No intercession needed!
Just a rule of men!

Another is
Mary, a very blessed woman, yes the mother of God, but the HUMAN mother that gave the God the humanity he needed to work his plan of salvation. The Angels greeting, Hail Mary bleesed among women. Not blessed among Angels, blest by angels. Not blessed among Spirits, blest by The Holy Spirit. A very blessed event happened through her but not of her.
Another just a rule of men rule.

I can go on but why?

Alfredthefifth
 

Wrangler

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You mention Henry the VIII
At his orders most of Roman Catholic church was put to death

I did say there were many wars.

In the interest of brevity I did not list the numerous atrocities initiated by the Roman Catholic Church, like the inquisitions, that set off what seemed like an endless cycle of vicious action and reaction, attack and counter attack.

The actual history of Christians is not entirely in line with the message of peace and love, central to the Gospel of the Messiah. Detailing it offends many sensibilities.
 
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