The Doctrine of OSAS

[justaname]

This is Romans 6:6

6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

There is no Romans 10:26

 

[FHII]

Romans 6.6 and 10.26 say that if we sin or fall away after receiving redemption, there is no further sacrifice available and salvation is lost....seems to negate OSAS doctrines.

Romans 6:6 says nothing of the sort and romans 10:26 does not exist. Of course, I know what you are speaking of.... neither is against what the bible says about predestination.

 

[justaname]

HTE,

I assume you speak of Hebrews 6:6...yet you speak of redemption where the author of Hebrews says repentance.

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (Heb 6:4–6). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.


I posted this earlier...

I agree with the writer of Hebrews yet not your contention they were ever in possession of salvation. Repentance does not cause salvation, enduring faith in Christ is the vehicle God uses for salvation. Repentance is the first step in salvation yet it is far from the perfection of salvation.
Then we must affirm what it means to repent, or what we are to repent of. My contention is our repentance is from our convictions we can do anything to save ourselves. God lifts up the humble and brings low the proud. Our repentance is from not trusting God. Adam broke that trust in the garden, Jesus restored that trust on the cross, which God confirmed through the resurrection. What is the work of God but to believe the One He sent.


God knows every apostate before any action they ever take. Great is the consequence for the apostate, here I agree. Yet God does not save apostates, only those who endure. Don't tell me God attempts to save the apostate yet fails because their free will was greater than Him.

 

[Barrd]

My privilege. B)

Honored to sing back up for you, Stan!

 

[Barrd]

Romans 6:6 says nothing of the sort and romans 10:26 does not exist. Of course, I know what you are speaking of.... neither is against what the bible says about predestination.

I think he meant Hebrews 6:6 and Hebrews 10:26,

Those scriptures (and many others as well) declare that OSAS is a false doctrine.

 

[Barrd]

For instance, this:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

Some will try to tell you that the people here who depart from the faith never really had faith at all...as if they know more about it than the Holy Spirit...

Anything to make it fit into their favorite doctrine. False teachers, pouring oil into itching ears....

 

[Barrd]

Or this:

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Peter clearly tells us that these folks had escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Now, if that is not a textbook example of salvation, I don't know what is.

But they are again entangled therein, and overcome. And their latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them, Peter tells us, not to have known the way of righteousness.... They had known the way of righteousness, but they would have been better off if they had not. But Peter is not through: than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

They had known the way of righteousness, but they had turned from the Holy Commandment that had been delivered unto them.

A chilling condemnation!


But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Yikes!

This passage is crystal clear...there is absolutely no way to read this and still hold to the OSAS doctrine.

That is what I thought, anyhow. I'm still utterly amazed at the scripture twisting that goes on in order to jam this one into the OSAS box.

 

[justaname]

For instance, this:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

Some will try to tell you that the people here who depart from the faith never really had faith at all...as if they know more about it than the Holy Spirit...

Anything to make it fit into their favorite doctrine. False teachers, pouring oil into itching ears....

If these are spoken of as departing from the faith, how can you say they were being saved?

WE ALREADY KNOW THEY WILL NOT BE SAVED!

 

[justaname]

Or this:

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Peter clearly tells us that these folks had escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Now, if that is not a textbook example of salvation, I don't know what is.

But they are again entangled therein, and overcome. And their latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them, Peter tells us, not to have known the way of righteousness.... They had known the way of righteousness, but they would have been better off if they had not. But Peter is not through: than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

They had known the way of righteousness, but they had turned from the Holy Commandment that had been delivered unto them.

A chilling condemnation!


But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Yikes!

This passage is crystal clear...there is absolutely no way to read this and still hold to the OSAS doctrine.

That is what I thought, anyhow. I'm still utterly amazed at the scripture twisting that goes on in order to jam this one into the OSAS box.

A textbook example of salvation is those spoken of as the good soil.

These are second or third soil at best.

God does not start saving some to fail at saving them. God only saves those who are saved.

 

[ATP]

"Repentance that leads to death" is referring to the sacrifices of animals in the OT. How can believers crucify the Son of God all over again when Jesus only died once for sins. Heb 6:1 NIV, Heb 6:6 NIV, Heb 10:10-12 NIV.

How can there be no sacrifice for sins left when the body of Jesus was the one time sacrifice for sins Heb 10:10-12 NIV, Heb 10:26 NIV. Deliberately keep on sinning is actually describing nonbelievers...Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV.

Some shall depart from the faith, not saving faith.."departed" in 1 Tim 4:1-2 NIV is translated "aphistémi" which means to lead away, to depart from. Also notice in Luke 8:13 NIV the same word "aphistémi" is used for the term "fall away". Why did they fall away? Because they had no root of salvation...

Luke 8:13 NIV Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Also notice it's mentioning two different people here, those who forbid people to etc...and those who believe and who know the truth.

1 Tim 4:1-3 NIV The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

2 Pet 2:1 NIV - The chapter starts off by telling us who the audience is, false prophets and false teachers. 2 Pet 2:1 NIV also explains how they deny Christ. Those who deny the deity of Christ are nonbelievers and are of the antichrist spirit Tit 1:15-16 NIV, 1 John 2:22 NIV, Jude 1:4-7 NIV.

2 Pet 2:3 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people are still condemned, but believers in Christ are no longer condemned by God...Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV.

2 Pet 2:8 NIV - This verse clearly separates the righteous from the lawless, and scripture clearly states that believers are no longer condemned as lawless. We are no longer of the antichrist spirit...2 Thess 2:3 NIV, 2 Thess 2:7-9 NIV, Heb 10:17 NIV, 2 Pet 2:7-8 NIV.

2 Pet 2:9 NIV - This verse clearly states that the unrighteous are held for punishment on the day of judgment, but scripture clearly states that nonbelievers are the one's who will experience punishment...Dan 12:1 NIV, Matt 24:21-22 NIV, John 3:36 NIV, John 5:29 NIV, John 6:35-40 NIV *, John 6:54 NIV, John 12:48 NIV, Rom 2:5 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, 1 Thess 1:9-10 NIV, 1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV, Heb 4:3 ESV, Rev 3:10 NIV.

Scripture also states that believers will not be punished, rather we will be rewarded at the Bema Seat of Christ...Matt 5:12 NIV, Matt 6:20 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV, Phil 3:12-14 NIV, Col 2:18 NIV, 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, 2 Tim 2:5 NIV, 2 Tim 4:8 NIV, Heb 10:34-35 NIV, James 1:12 NIV, 1 Pet 5:2-4 NIV, 2 John 1:8-11 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV, Rev 3:11 NIV, Rev 11:18 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.

2 Pet 2:14 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people never stop sinning, but believers in Christ no longer keep on sinning...Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV.

2 Pet 2:17 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people are springs without water, but scripture tells us that believers in Christ are springs WITH water...John 4:13-14 NIV, John 7:38-39 NIV, 1 Pet 3:21 NIV, Rev 7:17 NIV, Rev 21:6 NIV, Rev 22:1-2 NIV, Rev 22:17 NIV.

- ATP

 

[justaname]

According to the broadest meaning as used in Scripture, the term salvation encompasses the total work of God by which He seeks to rescue man from the ruin, doom, and power of sin and bestows upon him the wealth of His grace encompassing eternal life, provision for abundant life now, and eternal glory (Eph. 1:3-8; 2:4-10; 1 Pet. 1:3-5; John 3:16, 36; 10:10).

The word “salvation” is the translation of the Greek word soteria which is derived from the word soter meaning “savior.” The word “salvation” communicates the thought of deliverance, safety, preservation, soundness, restoration, and healing. In theology, however, its major use is to denote a work of God on behalf of men, and as such it is a major doctrine of the Bible which includes redemption, reconciliation, propitiation, conviction, repentance, faith, regeneration, forgiveness, justification, sanctification, preservation, and glorification. On the one hand, salvation is described as the work of God rescuing man from his lost estate. On the other hand salvation describes the estate of a man who has been saved and who is vitally renewed and made a partaker of the inheritance of the saints.2
https://bible.org/article/soteriology-doctrine-salvation

 

[justaname]

It is important to note salvation is a work of God. God is the active agent in salvation where man is the passive agent. This is not to say man is to be passive during his life concerning love, pursuing correct doctrine, strengthening his relationship with God, and things of the like. Rather we are encouraged to run after such endeavors with great joy. This is only to say humanity is subject to God's mercy in terms of salvation.

So then concerning the preserving of the saints we persevere by holding fast to the faith we have been given as a gift from God.(Ephesians 2:8, Romans 12:3)

Apostates never had salvation. Not all who respond to the faith given respond correctly as noted in the parable of the four soils. These account for all the warning passages given in scripture.

Being salvation is a work of God and not of man it is foolish to think God would fail at His work.

 

[ladodgers6]

Romans 6.6 and 10.26 say that if we sin or fall away after receiving redemption, there is no further sacrifice available and salvation is lost....seems to negate OSAS doctrines.

Well I guess then everybody will not be saved, because all sin! Read Romans 7. And you are suggesting that once a believer sins they are lost and lose their salvation because of it. The Gospel is also for the believers, because Christ died for the sins of believers too. Peter denied Christ three times. Paul in Romans 7 depicts his struggle with sin. Because the things he wants to do, his does not. And the things he does not want to, he does. Moses sins, every believer sins. People do not understand this topic. Let me point out some things that your premise cannot explain. Does not the Bible say that Christ leaves the flock to go find the one lost sheep? How about the prodigal Son? John 8 says that nobody WILL SNATCH THEM (ELECT) OUT OF HIS FATHER'S HAND and that the sheep WILL NEVER PERISH!!! Please address the scriptures and explain them.

 

[ATP]

I wouldn't take much stock in someone who believes the root comes from Judaism and not of God. Matt 7:16 NIV :unsure:

The root comes from God Barrd, the Holy Spirit that indwells believers. What does "enter my rest" mean here?...only those who believe enter His rest Heb 4:3 ESV...

John 10:26 NIV but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Rom 11:20 NIV Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Rom 11:23 NIV And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Heb 3:16-19 NIV Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Heb 4:3 ESV For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[ATP]

Barrd is incorrect again. The term "lost" only applies to nonbelievers who have not obtained salvation yet..

Matt 18:12-14 NIV “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

- ATP

 

[Barrd]

Well I guess then everybody will not be saved, because all sin! Read Romans 7. And you are suggesting that once a believer sins they are lost and lose their salvation because of it. The Gospel is also for the believers, because Christ died for the sins of believers too. Peter denied Christ three times. Paul in Romans 7 depicts his struggle with sin. Because the things he wants to do, his does not. And the things he does not want to, he does. Moses sins, every believer sins. People do not understand this topic. Let me point out some things that your premise cannot explain. Does not the Bible say that Christ leaves the flock to go find the one lost sheep? How about the prodigal Son? John 8 says that nobody WILL SNATCH THEM (ELECT) OUT OF HIS FATHER'S HAND and that the sheep WILL NEVER PERISH!!! Please address the scriptures and explain them.

Not at all, LA...not a bit.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[ATP]

"Repentance that leads to death" is referring to the sacrifices of animals in the OT. How can believers crucify the Son of God all over again when Jesus only died once for sins. Heb 6:1 NIV, Heb 6:6 NIV, Heb 10:10-12 NIV.

How can there be no sacrifice for sins left when the body of Jesus was the one time sacrifice for sins Heb 10:10-12 NIV, Heb 10:26 NIV. Deliberately keep on sinning is actually describing nonbelievers...Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV.

 

[Barrd]

Don't you know that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners?

But why is it that so many of you know the words of Paul better than you know the words of Jesus, Himself?

Luk 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

 

[ATP]

Your fruits are showing Barrd, and it's not good. The root comes from God.

 

[Barrd]

Well I guess then everybody will not be saved, because all sin! Read Romans 7. And you are suggesting that once a believer sins they are lost and lose their salvation because of it. The Gospel is also for the believers, because Christ died for the sins of believers too. Peter denied Christ three times. Paul in Romans 7 depicts his struggle with sin. Because the things he wants to do, his does not. And the things he does not want to, he does. Moses sins, every believer sins. People do not understand this topic. Let me point out some things that your premise cannot explain. Does not the Bible say that Christ leaves the flock to go find the one lost sheep? How about the prodigal Son? John 8 says that nobody WILL SNATCH THEM (ELECT) OUT OF HIS FATHER'S HAND and that the sheep WILL NEVER PERISH!!! Please address the scriptures and explain them.

The verse that you speak of here is not in John 8.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Notice what Jesus says in verse 27

My sheep hear my voice

They hear...and they listen. They pay attention to His every word...

I know them

He knows each one by name. And they know HIm. Elsewhere it says that they will not hear the voice of strangers.
So I ask again....why is it that so many OSASers seem to know Paul's letters better than they know the words of Jesus Christ?
Quick without looking...what are the opening lines to the Sermon on the Mount?
For that matter, where would I find the Sermon on the Mount? I am appalled at how many do not know...

they follow me

Those precious sheep not only listen....they follow. They respond to their Master's Voice. They trust Him....and they obey Him.



Oh, and that last line:

no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

Please notice that it does not say that one cannot remove his or her self from His hand. There are many cases in the Bible of people who did just that.