The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[Nondenom40]

expiate
atone for (guilt or wrongdoing).

satisfaction
2. Law the payment of a debt or fulfilment of an obligation or claim.

Both from the Concise Oxford English Dictionary
Both terms are applicable to the wrong we do to others.

Look up the term in a lexicon.

It is expiation. It's redressing the wrong we have done someone by stealing their money.
You want to use it solely in terms of the offence we do to God by our sins but it has a wide application.

Look up propitiation in a lexicon. Catholics love to water down terms and redefine words to suit themselves.

Really ? Does God pay back the £1,000 or mend the broken window?

No, and neither do you when you die and wind up in your non existent purgatory. So how exactly is the person you wronged 'satisfied' when youre dead?

 

[Mungo]

Look up the term in a lexicon.

I gave you dictionary definitions.
You are just in denial

Look up propitiation in a lexicon. Catholics love to water down terms and redefine words to suit themselves.

CCC 1475 doesn't use the word propitiation. That was a false claim by you.
1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
Show me where the word propitiation is used.

No, and neither do you when you die and wind up in your non existent purgatory. So how exactly is the person you wronged 'satisfied' when youre dead?

Good. You agree that God doesnt pay back the £1,000 or mend the broken window.
But justice demands you don't get off with a free pass.
Just as in a society context there is some punishment for wrong doing, so there is in God's justice.

This has all be explained to you starting with BOL's post #4
You are just in denial.

 

[Nondenom40]

I gave you dictionary definitions.
You are just in denial



CCC 1475 doesn't use the word propitiation. That was a false claim by you.
1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
Show me where the word propitiation is used.



Good. You agree that God doesnt pay back the £1,000 or mend the broken window.
But justice demands you don't get off with a free pass.
Just as in a society context there is some punishment for wrong doing, so there is in God's justice.

This has all be explained to you starting with BOL's post #4
You are just in denial.

When catholics have no substance to offer they claim the other guy is in denial

The reason we have greek lexicons is because 21st century english words don't translate as precisely as the 1st century koine greek. Catholics never have any desire to look up the greek as they know its going to sink their entire theology. Whose in denial? Not me.

 

[Mungo]

When catholics have no substance to offer they claim the other guy is in denial

The reason we have greek lexicons is because 21st century english words don't translate as precisely as the 1st century koine greek. Catholics never have any desire to look up the greek as they know its going to sink their entire theology. Whose in denial? Not me.

That's nonesense because you are arguing about an English word.

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
You claimed that uses the word propitiation and it doesn't.

Nothing to do with Greek.

 

[illini1959]

In our society if we commit an offence against another person we are brought to trial and if convicted we receive some punishment. That may be to repay some money; it may be to undertake some community work; it may be imprisonment for a time.
We are making reparation - satisfaction - to the person, to society for our offence.
This is a matter of justice.

How does 'purgatory' satisfy to the person, or society, for your offense?

But note also that the Church teaches:
The satisfaction that we make for our sins, however, is not so much ours as though it were not done through Jesus Christ. We who can do nothing ourselves, as if just by ourselves, can do all things with the cooperation of "him who strengthens" us. Thus man has nothing of which to boast, but all our boasting is in Christ . . . in whom we make satisfaction by bringing forth "fruits that befit repentance." These fruits have their efficacy from him, by him they are offered to the Father, and through him they are accepted by the Father. (CCC1460 quoting from the Council of Trent)

If we do not do this we are still due some punishment. The Catholic Church calls this "temporal punishment".
But I don't want to make too much of this. The main purpose of Purgatory is purification. It's what the term comes from
Purgatory
“early 13c., from M.L. purgatorium (St. Bernard, early 12c.), from L.L., "means of cleansing," prop. neut. of purgatorius (adj.) "purging, cleansing," from L. purgare (see purge).”
(Online Etymology Dictionary).

On the cross Jesus said "It is finished". Colossians 2:14 says "having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

As far as sinning once we're saved goes, that's why we confess them -

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:19

If (general) you steal something and confess the sin to Jesus, of course you should repay the person you stole from. But you are forgiven for the deed if you're sincerely repentant. If you don't repay the person, you lose reward.

We're purified by Jesus, not fire from a place of invention. The teaching of your church sure knows how to take scripture and put a twist to it, though.

 

[Mungo]

deleted

 

[Mungo]

No credible evidence has been given. It has nothing to do with denial. The so called "evidence" are Scriptures taken out of context in order to prop up a false teaching.

In your personal opinion

 

[reformed1689]

In your personal opinion

No, it's proper interpretation.

 

[Nondenom40]

That's nonesense because you are arguing about an English word.

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
You claimed that uses the word propitiation and it doesn't.

Nothing to do with Greek.

ἱλαστήριον has everything to do with the greek. You need to dig a bit deeper. Sadly, most catholics refuse to dig deep at all.

 

[Mungo]

No, it's proper interpretation.

You are wrong.

I've made three long posts in this thread (#13, #21, #22) as well as many other points.

You have not attempted to respond to any of them. You probably haven't even read them.

Then you come in and just say I'm wrong.

This is a debate forum. Try reading the posts and debating them.

 

[Mungo]

ἱλαστήριον has everything to do with the greek. You need to dig a bit deeper. Sadly, most catholics refuse to dig deep at all.

You still can't find propitiation in CCC1475. You told a lie and now you are trying to pretend you didn't.

 

[Nondenom40]

You still can't find propitiation in CCC1475. You told a lie and now you are trying to pretend you didn't.

Lol. You just scolded the last guy for just coming in here and saying 'youre wrong'. And thats all youre doing. I'm giving you clues to help your understanding and at the same time challenging you to go deeper. Your completely opposed to doing any sort of homework. I'm not doing it for you. Until you pick up a book you'll be in the dark. But hey, just let your church spoon feed you all this garbage and pretend you actually expiate your sin. Lets see how that works out for ya.

 

[reformed1689]

You are wrong.

I've made three long posts in this thread (#13, #21, #22) as well as many other points.

You have not attempted to respond to any of them. You probably haven't even read them.

Then you come in and just say I'm wrong.

This is a debate forum. Try reading the posts and debating them.

The absurdity of your posts don't need to be debated. They are clearly seen. But if you would like me to debate something specific just name it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

there is no/none purgatory period .it is false teaching

That's about the most empty and impotent response yet.

Back that up by explaining the verses I presented.

 

[reformed1689]

That's about the most empty and impotent response yet.

Back that up by explaining the verses I presented.

How about the fact that none of the verses you presented discuss anything like a purgatory....

 

[BreadOfLife]

This has nothing to do with the afterlife.

No this has nothing to do with Purgatory. That is reading into the passage.

You gave examples that have nothing to do with what you claim they do. Purgatory is a false doctrine from a false church.

You guys are really struggling out there.

Empty denials without explanations are for the weak.
Explain what these verse are about if NOT the afterlife.

 

[reformed1689]

You guys are really struggling out there.

Empty denials without explanations are for the weak.
Explain what these verse are about if NOT the afterlife.

Fine, please respond to this post and give your list of verses. I will gladly exegete them for you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

How about the fact that none of the verses you presented discuss anything like a purgatory....

They explain it precisely.

YOUR turn to explain . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Fine, please respond to this post and give your list of verses. I will gladly exegete them for you.

I already did back in post #4.

 

[reformed1689]

I already did back in post #4.

No you gave a commentary with references listed. Please just give me a list of passages to work with and I will gladly exegete. Plus your formatting was atrocious and I can't really follow post number 4.