The doctrine of the trinity, it's origins

[101G]

Ok, you are a modalist. I keep pressing the issue, so that i know how to respond to you. Where to refute, and where to agree.
You seem to have a reasonable knowledge of Greek, or you are a good researcher. But, on the other hand, why in the world would you spend time addressing the Comma Johanneum, when anyone with just a cursory knowledge of our manuscript tradition, knows that it's not an authentic Biblical verse? Even the most 'astute' trinitarians would know that.

Spirit cannot die, there is no sacrifice or threat when the immortal 'dies', for the mortal. There is nothing exemplary in such an pseudo act of obedience and sacrifice. You make a farce of God's judicial system by making such claims. Jesus, the 200% human, died on the cross for something that he didn't deserve, in the hope that God will accept his sacrifice, and raise him from the dead. This is the beauty of the Gospel, of Christ's love and faith, and of God's wisdom. Not the utter absurdity of God loving and obeying Himself, and then raising Himself from the dead.
101G, you see my point, right?

ERROR, God in flesh is OUR example, that's my POINT. he showed us, not himself, what needed to be done, and he did it.

Now as said, if you have a better answer to these scriptures please post them for all to examine.

NOW one other thing, you have called me a modalist twice now, if you believe that put your doctrine on the table and "diversity" will eat it for lunch. now I'm asking you to refraim from that unless you have clear scripture to prove that i'm a modalist

Thanking you in christ.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

Scripture #7 that was posted.

Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all”.

one God is correct, and one Father is correct, supportive scripture, Malachi 2:10a "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?”. ok who created us? answer JESUS, supportive scripture, John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made”. here the word is Jesus… correct, from verse 1 of John. Jesus made all things so he’s the creator, now this, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself”.

here the Lord Jesus, God himself, “alone”, and “by himself”, is the creator, meaning he’s the Father of “ALL THINGS”. else you have two "CREATORS", and that's anti bible. so Ephesians 4:6 is not a trinity supportive scripture.


PICJAG

 

[101G]

Scripture #8 that was posted.

the following is just a repeat on the Father,
Psalms 68:5 "A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation”.
see #7

Scripture #9 that was posted.
Malachi 2:10 "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?”
see #7

Scripture #10 that was posted.
Isaiah 63:16 "Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting”.
see #7

Scripture #11 that was posted.
finally a decent scripture to work with, 2 Corinthians 1:3 "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2 Corinthians 1:4 "Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

first lets address the, “ God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”. when the Lord Jesus used the term, “my Father, as in heaven, he is referring to his OWN diversified Spirit, supportive scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me”. his, God own arm, is he himself diversified in flesh on earth. so when the Lord Jesus in flesh say, "my Father", in heave, he’s saying “my” Spirit in heaven. and when he, the LORD, Jesus the Spirit, in heaven say “my” Son who is on earth, he is saying “my” BODY on earth. for Christ in the flesh is the body of God on earth. can we back this up? yes, when the Lord Jesus on earth in the flesh body was speaking to Nicodemus, he was also in heaven at the same time, scripture. John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven”. now if he had come down from heaven and is on earth, which he was, because he was talking to Nicodemus on earth, yet while he was speaking to Nicodemus on earth he was in heaven at the same time, read the scripture again. can we back this up? yes, witness #2. Remember Jesus was in a body on earth and in heaven as Spirit. John 20:26 "And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

John 20:27 "Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 20:29 "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed”.

here our Lord is clearly Identified as God in a body on earth, yet the Spirit in him is the same or as Philippians 2:6 say the “equal” to whom you calls the Father God, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God”. and no one is “Equal” to God but God himself. BINGO, that just eliminated 2 Corinthians 1:3 & 4 as a trinity scripture.

well that enough for today, I hope a trinity believer would respond with scripture to challenge what is posted. remember these are your scriptures that claim to be trinity friendly. but so far…… nope.


PICJAG

 

[Joseph77]

Sorry, no. > 'diversified'
No.

 

[Joseph77]

else you have two "CREATORS", and that's anti bible.

No, again.
Abba , Father, Designed Creation (with Wisdom? created first) ?

Through Jesus , Abba Created all things, and without Jesus was not anything made that was made.

 

[101G]

No, again.
Abba , Father, Designed Creation (with Wisdom? created first) ?

Through Jesus , Abba Created all things, and without Jesus was not anything made that was made.

thanks for the reply, but the wisdom of God is God himself, who is Jesus the Christ, God in flesh. supportive scripture, 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God".

see Wisdom is personified in proverb 8, Jesus is God himself "Wisdom" manifested in John 1:1 that's why in verse 3 it is he, JESUS, God who made all things. and please note in Isaiah 44:24 he went not Through anyone, he was "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF". which eliminates any other person in the Godhead.

see it now?

PICJAG.

 

[SovereignGrace]

John 8:24

 

[Joseph77]

"I, wisdom, was with the Lord when he began his work, long before he made anything else.
23 I was created in the very beginning, even before the world began.
24 I was born before there were oceans, or springs overflowing with water,
25 before the hills were there, before the mountains were put in place.
26 God had not made the earth or fields, not even the first dust of the earth.
27 I was there when God put the skies in place, when he stretched the horizon over the oceans,
28 when he made the clouds above and put the deep underground springs in place.
29 I was there when he ordered the sea not to go beyond the borders he had set. I was there when he laid the earth's foundation.
30 I was like a child by his side. I was delighted every day, enjoying his presence all the time,
31 enjoying the whole world, and delighted with all its people.

Proverbs 8:22-31 - NCV - "I, wisdom, was with the Lord when he began his...

 

[DNB]

ERROR, God in flesh is OUR example, that's my POINT. he showed us, not himself, what needed to be done, and he did it.

Now as said, if you have a better answer to these scriptures please post them for all to examine.

NOW one other thing, you have called me a modalist twice now, if you believe that put your doctrine on the table and "diversity" will eat it for lunch. now I'm asking you to refraim from that unless you have clear scripture to prove that i'm a modalist

Thanking you in christ.

PICJAG.

Actually, I think that I called you a modalist 3 x now, just for the record.
So, you are a diversanist, diversalist, diversisationalist, diversified, ... Well, that's new, at least to me?
Either way, you're very loose with your interpretation of Scripture. You're as bad as the trintitarians in their exegesis, by being a hyper-literalist.
Every verse that you quoted showed nothing but dullness and incompetence. But, without having to go through each one, this briefly, in principle, is where you fail.
For example, when Jesus said, '...eat my flesh and drink my blood...' or '...if thy hand offends thee, cut it off...', was he referring to the doctrine of transubstantiation, or to self-flagellation and self-mutilation? Obviously not (I hope)! But, you are doing the same thing, interpreting spiritual passages, in a carnal and hyper-literal manner. That's all that I can say right now.
The art of exegesis, is knowing which literary convention is being used within a pericope. When your exegesis leads to absurd conclusions, guess what, you either just eisegeted, or bastardized the text. Both in this case!

 

[101G]

Actually, I think that I called you a modalist 3 x now, just for the record.
So, you are a diversanist, diversalist, diversisationalist, diversified, ...
Well, that's new, at least to me?
Either way, you're very loose with your interpretation of Scripture. You're as bad as the trintitarians in their exegesis, by being a hyper-literalist.
Every verse that you quoted showed nothing but dullness and incompetence. Now, without having to through each one, let me show you briefly in principle, where you fail.
For example, when Jesus said, '...eat my flesh and drink my blood...' or '...if thy hand offends theee, cut it off...', was he referring to the doctrine of transubstantiation, or to self-flagellation and self-mutilation? Obviously not (I hope)! But, you are doing the same thing, interpreting spiritual passages, in a carnal and hyper-literal manner. That's all that I can say right now.
The art of exegesis, is knowing which literary convention is being used within a pericope. When your exegesis leads to absurd conclusions, guess what, you either just eisegeted, or bastardized the text. Both in this case!

first thanks for the reply, second, no I'm not a diversanist, diversalist, diversisationalist, diversified or any of those things. no, my "Doctrine" is diversified oneness, but me, I'm "holy", which we all should be, (1 Peter 1:15 & 16). if i'm loose with any interpretation of Scripture, (which I have no interpretation of Scripture, see 2Peter 1:20), but if what I posted is incorrect, then again I ask, "Correct what I have posted".

I see you talk, but no support for your talk. I have told you what I believe, and no it's no NEW "DOCTRINE". it's only new to those who have heard the TRUTH for the first time. supportive scripture, Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues". see this is a NEW TONGUE to many simply because they have not heard the TRUTH before until now, hence it's NEW to them.

once again, and I will not say it again, if you have a doctrine that is different from "Diversified Oneness", put it on the table.

PICJAG.

 

[DNB]

first thanks for the reply, second, no I'm not a diversanist, diversalist, diversisationalist, diversified or any of those things. no, my "Doctrine" is diversified oneness, but me, I'm "holy", which we all should be, (1 Peter 1:15 & 16). if i'm loose with any interpretation of Scripture, (which I have no interpretation of Scripture, see 2Peter 1:20), but if what I posted is incorrect, then again I ask, "Correct what I have posted".

I see you talk, but no support for your talk. I have told you what I believe, and no it's no NEW "DOCTRINE". it's only new to those who have heard the TRUTH for the first time. supportive scripture, Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues". see this is a NEW TONGUE to many simply because they have not heard the TRUTH before until now, hence it's NEW to them.

once again, and I will not say it again, if you have a doctrine that is different from "Diversified Oneness", put it on the table.

PICJAG.

First of all, I just wanted to show you that your whole approach is incorrect, as you are a hyper-literalist. So I did correct what you posted in that sense. But, there were too many to address, so simply put, where you are obligated to make implausible conclusions, it's time to spiritualize the text.

Jesus Christ is the first-born of all creation. He was not the creator, but all that God created was for Jesus. God did not want a family, but he wanted a son, and for His son, He created a family.
The mystery is that God played this out in history, in a reverse-chronological manner. Jesus was before Adam, but Adam was 'created' first. The mystery is in Christ's chronology, not his ontology.
Just like Abraham asked God to spare Sodom if he found 10 righteous, God was willing to spare mankind if he found one that obeyed Him to perfection. And perfection is summed up in loving God with all one's heart, mind, power and soul.
God cannot do this to Himself.

 

[101G]

Jesus Christ is the first-born of all creation. He was not the creator, but all that God created was for Jesus.

two ERROR in one sentence. Jesus christ is the first born of every creature from the dead. and he's the creator, he was "alone", and "by himself" when he created all things.

God did not want a family, but he wanted a son, and for His son, He created a family.

ERROR again, a son is a builder of the family of his own house, which we are , see, Hebrews 3:6 and we're in his house, oe at least I am...

The mystery is that God played this out in history, in a non-chronological manner. Jesus was before Adam, but Adam was 'created' first. The mystery is in Christ's chronology, not his ontology.

Another ERROR, chronological manner in reverse, from the end to the beginning, see Isaiah 46:10.

Just like Abraham asked God to spare Sodom if he found 10 righteous, God was willing to spare mankind if he found one that obeyed Him to perfection. And perfection is summed up in loving God with all one's heart, mind, power and soul.
God cannot do this to Himself.

Another ERROR on your part, perfection is in the Knowledge in Christ. see Ephesians 4:13 and as for Love we're knitted in love from that "KNOWLEDGE" of Christ.

As I figured, you have no knowledge of Christ.

PICJAG.

 

[Dcopymope]

Revelation pretty much clears up this confusion as to whether or not the "Son of God" we know as Jesus and that other guy he always directed worship and prayer to called the "Father" are indeed distinct persons. When John refers to Jesus in the narrative, he either calls him the "lamb", the "Lion of the tribe of Juda", "Son of Man", or the "word of God". Whenever he refers to the "Father", he refers to him as either "God", or "God Almighty". We see this with the first scriptures below, the first one with the saints singing praises with two different songs for "God" and the "Lamb".

(Revelation 15:3-4) "And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. {4} Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."

God Almighty:

(Revelation 4:2-5) "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. {3} And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. {4} And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. {5} And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."

Now the Seven Spirits of God is referencing the Holy Spirit. Who sent the Holy Spirit according to John? Jesus himself makes it pretty clear that his "Father" sends it, because as John plainly states, the Holy Spirit belongs to the Father, not to his son, or the "word of God".

(John 14:24-26) "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. {25} These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. {26} But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

Now the first real instance in which they are clearly depicted as two different characters in revelation is chapter 5. John gives a description of 'God Almighty' sitting on the throne with the book containing the seven seals in his right hand. An angel then asks who is worthy to open the book to unleash the seals within it, at which point no man in heaven or earth was found worthy.

(Revelation 5:1-3) "And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. {2} And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? {3} And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

But then one of them shouts that a man he calls the "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" has come and taken the book out of the right hand of that other guy that sat on the throne and opens it, at which point they all sing praises about this guy they also call the "Lamb" for redeeming them unto God, the other guy who sits on the throne.

(Revelation 5:5-9) "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. {6} And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. {7} And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. {8} And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

The next instance where they are depicted as distinct individuals is in revelation 18. The chapter starts off with "much people" in heaven giving praises to the "Lord our God" for his judgement on the "woman", the great whore that rode the beast.

(Revelation 19:1-2) "And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: {2} For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

The narrative immediately shifts to another scene in heaven in the temple with the four and twenty elders along with the four beasts worshiping the "Lord our God" in agreement with the great multitude of heaven, referencing to him that sits on the throne as the omnipotent one that reigneth.

Continued...

 

[Dcopymope]

(Revelation 19:4-6) "And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. {5} And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. {6} And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."

At which point attention is directed towards the "Lamb", Jesus, and his second coming with his army, as the "Word of God".

(Revelation 19:7-10) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. {10} And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

The "Word of God":

(Revelation 19:11-16) "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

About the winepress of "God Almighty":

The "Son of Man":

(Revelation 14:14-16) "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. {15} And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. {16} And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."

(Luke 21:27) "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

The Wine press of the wrath of "God Almighty":

(Revelation 14:17-19) "And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. {18} And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. {19} And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Now the second coming of Jesus in of itself proves that he is distinct from "God Almighty". "God Almighty" doesn't actually makes an appearance until well after his sons second coming, his millennial reign in Jerusalem, and the Great White throne judgement.

(Revelation 21:1-6) "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. {2} And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. {3} And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. {4} And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. {5} And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.

Its after where we see finally see the fulfillment of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God, as the "Lamb".

(Revelation 22:1-4) "And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. {2} In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. {3} And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: {4} And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Continued.......

 

[Dcopymope]

(Psalms 110:1) "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

(Mark 12:35-37) "¶ And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David? {36} For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. {37} David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son?

(Mark 14:62) "And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."

(Mark 16:19) "¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Now does this all prove the trinity doctrine? I can say that this conclusively proves that there are at least two distinct persons in heaven right now as the Godhead. You can call it three in one, or one in three, it makes no difference to me.

 

[DNB]

two ERROR in one sentence. Jesus christ is the first born of every creature from the dead. and he's the creator, he was "alone", and "by himself" when he created all things.

ERROR again, a son is a builder of the family of his own house, which we are , see, Hebrews 3:6 and we're in his house, oe at least I am...

Another ERROR, chronological manner in reverse, from the end to the beginning, see Isaiah 46:10.

Another ERROR on your part, perfection is in the Knowledge in Christ. see Ephesians 4:13 and as for Love we're knitted in love from that "KNOWLEDGE" of Christ.

As I figured, you have no knowledge of Christ.

PICJAG.

What, I got four errors, just in one post??? What the heck was I thinking?
And what, I have no knowledge of Christ either? And after all this time, I thought otherwise? What the heck is going on?
And to think, the 'Diversified Oneness' have got it all correct, who would've thought?

 

[101G]

@Dcopymope, first thanks for the reply. so lets take your post one at a time ok.

God Almighty:

I need not use only one scripture,
Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty".

is this Jesus or the one whom you call the Father in reference to the "Almighty".

Looking to hear from you.

PICJAG.

 

[DNB]

Now does this all prove the trinity doctrine? I can say that this conclusively proves that there are at least two distinct persons in heaven right now as the Godhead. You can call it three in one, or one in three, it makes no difference to me.

Well done!

 

[101G]

What, I got four errors, just in one post??? What the heck was I thinking?
And what, I have no knowledge of Christ either? And after all this time, I thought otherwise? What the heck is going on?
And to think, the 'Diversified Oneness' have got it all correct, who would've thought?

yelp... as i said in my signature below, "where there is Knowledge, stay not Ignorant"....

PICJAG.

 

[DNB]

yelp... as i said in my signature below, "where there is Knowledge, stay not Ignorant"....

PICJAG.

That's true, that is what is says!