The Elect

[Stranger]

Bump

So...who are the Elect...The born again Jewish people?...or some out of the NT Church...or both? ( could it be both ?)
Interesting... I have no idea.

The 'elect' are those who are of God irregardless the time period when they live on earth or heaven. I say heaven because God even has His elect among the angels. (1Tim. 5:21)

So between the time of Adam to Moses, God has His elect. In Israel God has His elect. In the Church God has His elect. In the Tribulation and Millennium God has His elect.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

The 'elect' are those who are of God irregardless the time period when they live on earth or heaven. I say heaven because God even has His elect among the angels. (1Tim. 5:21)

So between the time of Adam to Moses, God has His elect. In Israel God has His elect. In the Church God has His elect. In the Tribulation and Millennium God has His elect.

Stranger

Oh good...that's sound right...so the Elect are all...ancient fathers as Enoch, Noah Daniel etc..and the NT God chasers too...and those who of today.
Do you think that the rif-raf like you and I can make it into The Elect? Ie the Overcomers of Revelation 3 ...If indeed we are found among those who have overcome.. at the end!!
I must go back and read all these posts...I didn't read them all yet.

Thanks....H.

 

[Stranger]

Oh good...that's sound right...so the Elect are all...ancient fathers as Enoch, Noah Daniel etc..and the NT God chasers too...and those who of today.
Do you think that the rif-raf like you and I can make it into The Elect? Ie the Overcomers of Revelation 3 ...If indeed we are found among those who have overcome.. at the end!!
I must go back and read all these posts...I didn't read them all yet.

Thanks....H.

One who is a born-again Christian is part of the Elect. The elect don't make it into the elect. The elect are the elect and as a result will make it. Understand that this is a very hated doctrine by many.

J. Vernon McGee gave this analogy which I like. When you first came through the door of salvation, above that door it said "Whosoever believeth in Him". (John 3:16) As you went through that door and turned back and looked, there was another sign on the same door which said, "Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world". (Eph. 1:4)

One verse that describes both aspects of (John 3:16) and (Eph. 1:4) is (2 Thess. 2:13) "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth:"

God not only chose you, but He chose the way by which you are brought into this salvation which is through, first, the work of the Spirit upon you and then, second, your belief.

And because God has chosen us, we should, as the first part of (2 Thess. 2:13) says, "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord...". We should be thankful.

With this doctrine comes many questions. Some can be answered and perhaps others can't to your satisfaction. But it is a good doctrine to study, to know.

A good book on it would be helpful to you. I am not familiar with the recent Christian authors of today. So, I am not sure if any of them would do it justice. I would recommend a book by 'A.W. Pink' called 'The doctrines of Election and Justification'. Though I am not sure if you can still find it.

P.S. I just checked and you can still get Pinks book. Another one of his along the same lines is 'The Sovereignty of God'. I recommend it also.

Stranger

 

[mjrhealth]

One who is a born-again Christian is part of the Elect

This part is not quiet correct, as the elect are "chosen" of God, being born again does not make one chosen.

 

[Stranger]

This part is not quiet correct, as the elect are "chosen" of God, being born again does not make one chosen.

If one is born-again, they are part of the elect. They are elect before they are born-again. So, why do you say being born-again does not make one chosen?

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

J. Vernon McGee gave this analogy which I like. When you first came through the door of salvation, above that door it said "Whosoever believeth in Him". (John 3:16) As you went through that door and turned back and looked, there was another sign on the same door which said, "Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world". (Eph. 1:4)

doesn't match the "door/river" analogy of the wanderers though; what do you think?

 

[Copperhead]

Israel is called YHVH's elect in Isaiah 45. In that same passage, YHVH calls an unbelieving gentile, Cyrus, His Anointed, 150 years before Cyrus was a ruler. Now, for sure, Cyrus was no Messiah by any stretch of the imagination, but that doesn't negate that he was considered YHVH's anointed.

The church is called elect in various NT passages.

Angels are even called elect in 1 Timothy 5.

Election does not necessarily have anything to do with salvation or justification. It is a positional status before YHVH. Israel was elected by YHVH to bring forth and preserve His word (every book of the Bible was written by a Jew), reveal YHVH to the rest of the world, and bring forth the Messiah, and also to honor His covenant with Abraham. That doesn't mean all of Israel were "elect" in the sense that Believers are by being individually justified. Israel's election is a corporate election as a nation, as established by the Mosaic Covenant.

In Exodus 19:6, Israel is called a holy nation, just like the church is in 1 Peter 2:9. Israel is a holy nation, corporately, made up only of Jews, both believing and non believing. The Church (body of Messiah) is made up only of believing individuals, both Jew and Gentile, of which ethnic distinctions are no longer valid. Yet both Israel and the Church are elect and holy (set apart for the Lord's purpose).

So it is very reasonable for some to hold that the possible deception of the elect as mentioned by Yeshua in Matt 24 could very well mean the people of Israel. And YHVH will not allow that to happen in total. Hosea 5:15 along with Matt 23:39 make it quite clear that Israel, corporately as a nation, must call out for Yeshua's return before He will do so. The leadership of Israel rejected Messiah, but many of the Jewish people did not. So the leadership has to come around and recognize and call for His return before He can.

That should put an end to the Brit-Am arguments and that the Jewish people make up various nationalities world wide. i.e. the ten lost tribes nonsense. As well as "the church has replaced Israel" stuff.

 

[Armadillo]

(2 Thess. 2:13) "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth:"

God not only chose you, but He chose the way by which you are brought into this salvation which is through, first, the work of the Spirit upon you and then, second, your belief.

The sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit and belief of the truth and does it not take believing of the truth for the Holy Spirit to sanctify?

Belief first, that's why we are to preach the Good News.

2 Thessalonians 2:14, He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since the time of John the Baptist, Good News is preached and it brings life.

Luke 16:16, “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.

 

[Richard_oti]

<snip>
That should put an end to the Brit-Am arguments and that the Jewish people make up various nationalities world wide. i.e. the ten lost tribes nonsense. As well as "the church has replaced Israel" stuff.

And sadly, they seem to linger on.

 

[Stranger]

The sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit and belief of the truth and does it not take believing of the truth for the Holy Spirit to sanctify?

Belief first, that's why we are to preach the Good News.

2 Thessalonians 2:14, He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since the time of John the Baptist, Good News is preached and it brings life.

Luke 16:16, “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.

Well, the order in (2 Thess. 2:13) is clear. Sanctification by Holy Spirit which leads to belief of the truth. Were it the way you describe, then it would have said 'through belief of the truth and sanctification of the Holy Spirit'. I remember having this discussion with a pastor once who told me that the order here doesn't matter. Yet when ever he preached on this verse he always said, 'belief of the truth and sanctification of the Spirit'. So I believe the order is important and is given as God wanted it. Sanctification of the Holy Spirit first, then comes belief of the truth.

We preach the Gospel so that the lost know what to believe. (Rom. 10:14-15) Just because I hold to the doctrine of 'election' doesn't mean I ignore the preaching of the Gospel. God doesn't tell me who the elect are. That is His business. I preach to all or witness to all that I can and leave God's selection up to Him. But it is important to know that there is an elect of God. He has given it to us to know.

It is important to note also that God wants even those who are non-elect to be preached to, so that by their own decision they are condemned. God is pleased with my witness whether one believes or not. (2 Cor. 2:15-16) "For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?"

Stranger

 

[Armadillo]

They are elect before they are born-again.

All are the elect. God had a plan to purchase us with His blood but not all will belong to Him because not all will believe in His Son.

 

[Armadillo]

Well, the order in (2 Thess. 2:13) is clear.

Well, if the order is as clear as you say then I would be a full-blown Calvinist and so would the pastor you had a discussion with.

 

[Armadillo]

So I believe the order is important and is given as God wanted it. Sanctification of the Holy Spirit first, then comes belief of the truth.

I believe the order is important too so tell me how you, the hand-picked selected of God, was made holy before believing? Believers are holy in Christ and unbelievers are unholy, they are not in Christ.

1 Timothy 4:4-5, For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

John 1:12, Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

Romans 3:22, This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

1 Corinthians 6:10-11, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Where are the verses that say you are sanctified before you believe? What is sanctification?

 

[Armadillo]

I preach to all or witness to all that I can and leave God's selection up to Him.

1 Timothy 4:6

If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters (believers), you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

 

[Armadillo]

It is important to note also that God wants even those who are non-elect to be preached to, so that by their own decision they are condemned.

No, no, no. We all are elect, there is no non-elect.

Jesus is the sower and the types of ground are those responding to Him and it is our decision to choose what path to be on.

Matthew 13:4, As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.

If someone is on the wrong path, the seed can't take root and grow because the birds eat the seed. The birds are lost people, talking people out of believing the Good News. To share bad news that not all are the elect makes you a bird because some will swallow that horse-puckey and it will swell their head or make them feel God doesn't want them.

 

[Stranger]

All are the elect. God had a plan to purchase us with His blood but not all will belong to Him because not all will believe in His Son.

Where does it say all are the elect? Elect is a distinguishing term, as opposed to those who are not. There is nothing to indicate all are the elect.

The order is clear in (2 Thess. 2:13). 'chosen through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth'. The work of the Holy Spirit first then belief of the truth.

Concerning your post #33, Sanctification simply means being set apart. The unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife. (1 Cor. 7:14) That doesn't make him saved or having the Spirit. He is simply treated differently, because he is married to a believing woman, then if he were not.

The verses you gave are all good. I don't see a problem with any of them. Do you? I just gave you (2 Thess. 2:13) and you refuse to believe it. Why do you want more?

Concerning your post #34, again, good verse. What does that have to do with what we are talking about?

Concerning your post #35, yes, you keep saying we are all elect, but Scripture doesn't say so. Your interpretation of the parable in (Matt. 13) is highly incorrect. And where did I ever say I share the knowledge of the elect to a lost person. I never have. I simply give the Gospel. But the doctrine of the elect is a true doctrine.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

At the moment I am with Stranger on this one.
I believe The Elect are found in Rev 3. The Overcomers....
....but I have been wrong at least once before....

 

[Armadillo]

Where does it say all are the elect?

The word "chosen" is "eklektos" in the Greek and we derive "election" from it.

The elect is just a title for the church of Jesus Christ, a pre-determined act of God way before Adam sinned and the Cross was always necessary and we are all chosen through Christ's blood.

 

[Armadillo]

I just gave you (2 Thess. 2:13) and you refuse to believe it. Why do you want more?

My choice to not believe what you believe and I gave the reasons why. Who says I want more from you specifically? I don't little birdie.

 

[Armadillo]

Your interpretation of the parable in (Matt. 13) is highly incorrect.

Highly incorrect eh? Are you the parable police? Where is your interpretation of the parable then? You haven't even heard mine fully, you just read a snippet and so quick to judge too.