The end in relation to when Christ initially returns.

[Freedm]

It there will be no need to have a body of immortal flesh, why will the body of believers be resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible?

I believe Paul was speaking of a replacement body. The spiritual is the immortal and incorruptible body. Once we have it, we don't need to go back.

If you don't believe our body that returns to dust shall be resurrected immortal and incorruptible why will there be a new earth after this first earth passes away?

Ecclesiastes 1:4
Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

I can only assume this is a correct translation and the earth will indeed remain forever.

The new heaven and new earth that Revelation speaks of is Jesus Christ himself. The old heaven and earth is a reference to the old temple, which was man's connection to heaven. That's why it was called "heaven and earth". The inner court was heaven, the outer court earth. There were many aspects of the temple building, including the furniture, that followed this theme of heaven and earth. Ask a Jewish rabi and they will tell you the same thing.

So that old "heaven and earth" was burned up in fire, as predicted. The new heaven and earth is Jesus Christ who is our new connection to heaven. We no longer need a physical temple, because we have Christ, as you know, but I bet you didn't know that he is the new "heaven and earth".

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

The reference to "sea" in this verse refers to "peoples, nations and tongues" because in Jesus Christ (the new heaven and earth) we are all one.

 

[rwb]

I believe Paul was speaking of a replacement body. The spiritual is the immortal and incorruptible body. Once we have it, we don't need to go back.

The spirit in men of faith is eternal, not immortal & incorruptible. It is our physical body, being mortal and corruptible that must be resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal, not our spirit. A spirit is not a physical body, it has no form. Christ proved this when His disciples seeing Him after He arose from the dead thought they had seen a spirit. So Christ says:

Luke 24:37-39 (KJV) But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Ecclesiastes 1:4
Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

I can only assume this is a correct translation and the earth will indeed remain forever.

The new heaven and new earth that Revelation speaks of is Jesus Christ himself. The old heaven and earth is a reference to the old temple, which was man's connection to heaven. That's why it was called "heaven and earth". The inner court was heaven, the outer court earth. There were many aspects of the temple building, including the furniture, that followed this theme of heaven and earth. Ask a Jewish rabi and they will tell you the same thing.

So that old "heaven and earth" was burned up in fire, as predicted. The new heaven and earth is Jesus Christ who is our new connection to heaven. We no longer need a physical temple, because we have Christ, as you know, but I bet you didn't know that he is the new "heaven and earth".

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

The reference to "sea" in this verse refers to "peoples, nations and tongues" because in Jesus Christ (the new heaven and earth) we are all one.

This is all assumption without any proof from the Bible to prove what you assume. Do Preterits believe that just because you say something is so we should simply believe your assumptions?

 

[ewq1938]

What you proved is that death existed in the old testament, and with that I agree, but things changed when Jesus came.

Nothing changed as far as people dying and being called dead and having had died.

He conquered death, and now we have immortality.

He didn't conquer or end the first death and people could have eternal life under the old covenant. The process was perfected and made easier by Christ for our benefit.

 

[Timtofly]

Death was the last enemy defeated, and the kingdom was returned to God. I think the problem is that you think death still exists for us. Why do you think death still exists for us? Is it because the body dies? That doesn't mean that we die, so explain to me why you think death still exists for us.

And if death still exists for us, then what did Jesus accomplish on the cross? If we're still doomed to death for our sins, if we're still slaves to sin, and prisoners of death, then what was the point of all that?

People are still dying without Christ, and in full rejection of Christ.

People still have a choice to accept by faith, eternal life. Eternal life without sin is not what happens when we are born today. In fact killing babies is growing worse all the time. No death, means no human death period.

Death is not just about this body of death. When death is removed, the physical body will not be in a state of death from birth.

No one is born in Adam's dead flesh in the Millennium on earth. They will be born with a body of eternal life. They can still die if they disobey God. People will still choose between life and death. The normal choice will be eternal life. But death is still a choice, those living will constantly choose life, instead of now, when death is the constant choice.

You claim humans are currently living in the NHNE. That is just not current reality though.

Those who accept the redemption of the Cross will never taste death, physical death is only getting rid of death, permanently. But for those without Christ, they are forever in death, until they accept that redemption.

 

[Freedm]

The spirit in men of faith is eternal, not immortal & incorruptible. It is our physical body, being mortal and corruptible that must be resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal, not our spirit. A spirit is not a physical body, it has no form. Christ proved this when His disciples seeing Him after He arose from the dead thought they had seen a spirit. So Christ says:

Luke 24:37-39 (KJV) But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

I don't believe we will necessarily experience the same type of resurrection that Jesus did. I don't see anything, other than the example of Christ, that says our physical bodies will be made immortal. It makes much more sense to me that we will receive new spiritual bodies, instead of an improved version of the old bodies.

As Paul states "The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven." and "There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies". That tells me there are two kinds of bodies, not one kind that gets an upgrade. It also tells me that the first body is made of dust, and the second is not, so how then can you say that the body made of dust is our second body? It goes against what Paul taught.

This is all assumption without any proof from the Bible to prove what you assume. Do Preterits believe that just because you say something is so we should simply believe your assumptions?

I'm not making an assumption to say that Jesus is the new heaven and new earth, and I'm not making it up. It's a fact. Talk to a Jewish rabi and ask him if the temple was known as "heaven and earth". He should know. Combine that with what we as Christians know, which is that Jesus replaced the temple, and it becomes clear.

 

[Freedm]

People are still dying without Christ, and in full rejection of Christ.

Do you not believe that Jesus has conquered death? He certainly demonstrated it when he rose after three days did he not? And if he conquered death, then we're Gucci, but if not, then our faith is futile and we would guilty of false witness about God. Does that sound familiar? It should because that's what Paul said in 1st Corinthians 15.

Or do you not think that raising yourself from the dead requires you to conquer death? I'm not sure how you would do it otherwise, but I'll let you think about it.

The unsaved are likely still dying, yes, but the saved are not.

You claim humans are currently living in the NHNE. That is just not current reality though.

That's not what I said. I said Jesus is the new heaven and new earth. Although, since we live in him, I suppose you could say we are "living in the NHNE", but I'm pretty sure you didn't understand it that way.

Think about it. What was the purpose of the temple? Was it not a connection to God? Was that not the point of having it? A way for the people earth to connect to God in heaven? Yes, that was the purpose, which is why it was called "heaven and earth". It was literally the connection between heaven and earth. Now you know that Jesus is our new connection between heaven and earth. We no longer need a temple because Jesus is our temple. Therefore, Jesus is the new "heaven and earth".

Now consider this, what Jesus said in Matthew 5:18
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The law ceased to be in effect when the temple was destroyed, or as Jesus referred to it "heaven and earth". If it was not so, then you and I would still be bound to the law. And I know you don't believe you're bound to the law, but in light of Jesus' words here, you can't really explain why, can you? It only makes sense if the temple is "heaven and earth".

There is some literature about this online, not a lot, but some. Here's an example. I encourage you all to read it at least partially, to get an understanding of this concept of heaven and earth.

Where Heaven and Earth Was for First-Century Jews

 

[Freedm]

The spirit in men of faith is eternal, not immortal & incorruptible. It is our physical body, being mortal and corruptible that must be resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal, not our spirit.

Maybe I didn't explain myself properly. I'm not suggesting that "our spirit" gets resurrected instead of our physical body. I'm saying that we get resurrected as a spiritual body, when our physical body dies. In other words, I don't believe we have a spirit living inside of our bodies at all. That would make no sense. It would require that the old testament saints had no spirits at all, because they died and slept in the earth with their fathers, until the resurrection. So when did people start getting born with spirits? What was the cut off date? And if there was a cut off date, would the children who were born the day before not have a spirit? What happened to them when they died 80 years later? Or did those adults living at the cut off date suddenly have a spirit enter their bodies? Where did this spirit come from, and did it have its own consciousness outside of the body before it entered the body? That would be weird, because that would be like the merging of two different people. Or did spirits suddenly grow inside of people? What? And besides, what would be the point for God to suddenly start giving us spirits? I mean, if we are spirits at our core anyway, living inside of bodies, then what's the point of having a physical body? And more importantly, why would our physical bodies need to get resurrected, if we live on in immortal spiritual bodies anyway? No, this is obviously nonsense. None of this is logical, and it requires a level of complexity that's just not necessary.

You can see how easy it is for a series of questions to reveal the nonsense of it all, and not a single person on this board would be able to adequately answer those questions.

Simply put, we are physical bodies (not spirits) with consciousness, and when we "die" we are immediately resurrected in our new spiritual bodies, and our consciousness transfers over. That makes sense. We are as God created us, made of dust, and in the old testament, there was no hope of life after death, but now we have the promise that we will live on after death, and we don't need a spirit living inside of us for that. We just need to be resurrected, and that's exactly what happens at death. We are resurrected in our new spiritual bodies. It's as simple as that. The old testament saints had no resurrection, until they did, but we get our resurrection as soon as we die. Our consciousness will live on in spiritual form, when the body dies, and our consciousness is what we are at our core. Where our consciousness goes, that is where we are.

 

[rwb]

I don't believe we will necessarily experience the same type of resurrection that Jesus did. I don't see anything, other than the example of Christ, that says our physical bodies will be made immortal. It makes much more sense to me that we will receive new spiritual bodies, instead of an improved version of the old bodies.

As Paul states "The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven." and "There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies". That tells me there are two kinds of bodies, not one kind that gets an upgrade. It also tells me that the first body is made of dust, and the second is not, so how then can you say that the body made of dust is our second body? It goes against what Paul taught.

No, I agree, when we partake of Christ's resurrection, we are partaking spiritually not physically. But partake of Him we must to be born again. We will not be physically resurrected until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds, and only those who are physically dead shall be physically resurrected, and we who are of faith that are still alive when He comes the second time shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air, and physically changed from mortal to immortal just as the resurrected dead shall also be. Why would God bother to resurrect our body of flesh & bone and make them immortal & incorruptible if we shall not be physical body with spirit within on the new earth?

Our body doesn't become a spiritual body, our spirit returns to God when we physically die. (Ecc 12:7 If we have the Holy Spirit within, we are a spiritual body of believers in heaven after physical death. Then our spirit returns with Christ when He comes again. (1 TH 4:14) Then we shall once again be complete as we were at creation having body + spirit we once again become living souls.

I agree, Paul goes through great detail to prove the physical body like that of the first Adam is natural, and the spiritual body that believers become after our physical body dies is like that of the second Adam, who is Christ, and is spiritual/celestial/like the angels of God. In heaven as spiritual body of believers we are like Christ, who being God is in heaven a spirit.

Our natural body dies and returns to the earth, then 'it' the spirit within is raised, not resurrected because our spirit in Christ has eternal life that shall never die through Him. Our body dies and at that moment we ascend to heaven, being raised a spiritual body where we wait for the Kingdom of God in heaven to be complete, then the last trumpet will sound and our body + spirit will once more become complete living soul for the new earth.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[rwb]

I'm not making an assumption to say that Jesus is the new heaven and new earth, and I'm not making it up. It's a fact. Talk to a Jewish rabi and ask him if the temple was known as "heaven and earth". He should know. Combine that with what we as Christians know, which is that Jesus replaced the temple, and it becomes clear.

Scripture says that when we are in Christ, we become a new 'man'. Yes, the new man being Christian is called a living temple. I don't find any place in Scripture that says Christ is the new heaven and new earth, nor does it say believers become the new heaven and new earth. I only find written that just as Christ shall one day be on the new earth, believers shall be there also but without sin or death, for there shall be no more sadness or sorrow for all evil and dying will be destroyed.

 

[rwb]

In other words, I don't believe we have a spirit living inside of our bodies at all. That would make no sense. It would require that the old testament saints had no spirits at all, because they died and slept in the earth with their fathers, until the resurrection. So when did people start getting born with spirits? What was the cut off date? And if there was a cut off date, would the children who were born the day before not have a spirit? What happened to them when they died 80 years later? Or did those adults living at the cut off date suddenly have a spirit enter their bodies? Where did this spirit come from, and did it have its own consciousness outside of the body before it entered the body? That would be weird, because that would be like the merging of two different people. Or did spirits suddenly grow inside of people? What? And besides, what would be the point for God to suddenly start giving us spirits? I mean, if we are spirits at our core anyway, living inside of bodies, then what's the point of having a physical body? And more importantly, why would our physical bodies need to get resurrected, if we live on in immortal spiritual bodies anyway? No, this is obviously nonsense. None of this is logical, and it requires a level of complexity that's just not necessary.

Where does our physical life come from if not from the spirit that every living creature has to give our physical body, though mortal, life?

God created man with a body + spirit (breath of life) and he became a living soul. Our spirit is who we are! It controls our mind, will, emotions and gives life to every organ of our body. Without the Spirit of Christ the spirit in man is natural and unable to commune with God or to please Him. That's why man must be born again supernaturally through Christ's Spirit in us. With His Spirit in our spirit, our spirit has eternal life and shall NEVER die.

When the spirit returns to God who gave it, man's spirit with eternal life returns to God a spiritual body of believers, still a living soul. The spirit in man that returns to God without eternal life through the Spirit of Christ is said to be in silence and darkness in death until the physical resurrection in an hour that is coming. Without a living spirit there is NO breath of life.

Simply put, we are physical bodies (not spirits) with consciousness, and when we "die" we are immediately resurrected in our new spiritual bodies, and our consciousness transfers over.

What is this consciousness you speak of? From where does it come? The physical body without spirit is a corpse! Since all men are destined to physically die, when Christ says all who live and believe in Him shall never die, what part of man possesses eternal/everlasting life through Him that He says shall NEVER die? It is our spirit that gives mankind physical life. And it is Christ's Spirit within our spirit who gives us life without end. Not physical life, but spiritual life through Him.

James 2:26 (KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

When we are in Christ, we are in FACT spirit trapped in physical bodies of death. It is for this reason that Paul longed to die to be absent from his physical body of death and to be with the Lord in heaven.

Simply put, we are physical bodies (not spirits) with consciousness, and when we "die" we are immediately resurrected in our new spiritual bodies, and our consciousness transfers over.

Resurrection is only for the DEAD! In Christ the spirit in man NEVER dies. That's why Paul writes that our body is sown in the earth when we physically die, and believers are RAISED (not resurrected) a spiritual body of believers to heaven the moment when our physical body breathes its last. We don't become spiritual body when our physical body is RESURRECTED from the dead. We become whole/complete again as we were in the beginning when God created man with body +spirit (breath of life) and man became a living soul.

in the old testament, there was no hope of life after death, but now we have the promise that we will live on after death, and we don't need a spirit living inside of us for that.

There was no hope for life after physical death without FAITH! Even Old Covenant faithful saints knew they must believe in the promised Messiah/Redeemer that the Law pointed to, and the Prophets foretell would come, if they were to be saved from death. Those who died in faith waiting for Him to come are now with Him a spiritual body of believers in heaven. Just as Scripture foretells, after His resurrection Christ first descended into the graves of the saints who died in faith, and set the captives of death free, taking them with Him to heaven spiritually alive.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Our consciousness will live on in spiritual form, when the body dies, and our consciousness is what we are at our core. Where our consciousness goes, that is where we are.

Yes, this is true for those of faith! That consciousness you again speak of is the spirit (breath of life) within every living breathing creature to give physical life. As Paul has written when our body is dead and buried, we (spirit) are RAISED a spiritual body of believers to heaven as living souls, where we wait for the day when we shall once again have physical resurrected immortal & incorruptible bodies with spirit and once again be complete living souls fit to live forever with Christ on the new earth.

 

[David in NJ]

I'm new here and all, yet some of you already know me from other boards since I recognize some of you from these same boards.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

I would think, if nothing else, pretty much everyone is in agreement that verse 24 is meaning after the great white throne judgment.

So let's assume a hypothetical scenario here. When Christ intially returns it is 12 PM central time on a Monday of a particular month and a particular year. Obviously, for example, 24 hours later it is another day, thus no longer this same day He initially returned. Unless the end meant in verse 24 above occurs within 24 hours or less of Him having returned, it is ludicrous to insist there are no more days remaining once He has returned.

The point being, no way could the great white throne judgment be involving just 24 hours or less. Therefore, once He returns there has to be more days remaining in order to allow for the great white throne judgment eventually. Which means it is not preposterous that some of these days can be involving the millennium and satan's little season after He has initially returned since it is already impossible that verse 24 above can be meaning within 24 hours or less of Him having returned based on the amount of time the great white throne judgment alone will be involving.

For some reason Amils just can't seem to grasp how utterly ludicrous it is that verse 24 above is meaning 24 hours or less of Him having returned. As if it makes sense that in this same 24 hour window of time the great white throne judgment begins and is finished entirely.

Amil is a false doctrine

Follow the Path of Truth = Revelation chapters 19 and 20 are easily understood.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you not believe that Jesus has conquered death? He certainly demonstrated it when he rose after three days did he not? And if he conquered death, then we're Gucci, but if not, then our faith is futile and we would guilty of false witness about God. Does that sound familiar? It should because that's what Paul said in 1st Corinthians 15.

Or do you not think that raising yourself from the dead requires you to conquer death? I'm not sure how you would do it otherwise, but I'll let you think about it.

The unsaved are likely still dying, yes, but the saved are not.


That's not what I said. I said Jesus is the new heaven and new earth. Although, since we live in him, I suppose you could say we are "living in the NHNE", but I'm pretty sure you didn't understand it that way.

Think about it. What was the purpose of the temple? Was it not a connection to God? Was that not the point of having it? A way for the people earth to connect to God in heaven? Yes, that was the purpose, which is why it was called "heaven and earth". It was literally the connection between heaven and earth. Now you know that Jesus is our new connection between heaven and earth. We no longer need a temple because Jesus is our temple. Therefore, Jesus is the new "heaven and earth".

Now consider this, what Jesus said in Matthew 5:18
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The law ceased to be in effect when the temple was destroyed, or as Jesus referred to it "heaven and earth". If it was not so, then you and I would still be bound to the law. And I know you don't believe you're bound to the law, but in light of Jesus' words here, you can't really explain why, can you? It only makes sense if the temple is "heaven and earth".

There is some literature about this online, not a lot, but some. Here's an example. I encourage you all to read it at least partially, to get an understanding of this concept of heaven and earth.

Where Heaven and Earth Was for First-Century Jews

There will be no NHNE, until this current one passes away. So both cannot exist together at the same time.

Jesus will live in the New Jerusalem, but Jesus is not the New Jerusalem, nor the NHNE.

Jesus conquered death for Himself. Jesus did not remove death from reality. Context is your key to determine the meaning of conquer. Death was not defeated when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15. If death was defeated, then Paul would have put that as past tense, not a future event.

That would be like saying Satan and all humanity have not been enemies of Christ but all friends and part of universal acceptance, because no enemies would have existed after the Cross.

Death is defeated for those in Christ, but death is not defeated for the rest of creation. The rest of creation still experiences death.

 

[Timtofly]

Our consciousness will live on in spiritual form, when the body dies, and our consciousness is what we are at our core. Where our consciousness goes, that is where we are.

This phenomenon you call consciousness is the soul. Prior to the Cross this consciousness had form, and experienced Abraham's bosom, instead of the torments of sheol. That is the soul.

The soul is given a physical body at conception. The soul also starts at conception. The spirit begins at conception, but resides in heaven with God. You are formed as a son of God at conception, but only live in Adam's dead state until the day of redemption, when Adam's physical body dies. The Holy Spirit is also given at conception as God's working on your behalf. But that seed of the Holy Spirit is not always heard until much later in life, or sometimes not at all. John the Baptist was chosen by God in the womb, and the Holy Spirit was already fully working in the womb and John was aware of that work even in the womb.

To state that we have to receive the Holy Spirit as if the Holy Spirit is not already working since conception, is a wrong understanding of the Day of Pentecost. That was a physical manifestation. The work of the Holy Spirit is spiritual inside a person's soul, ie consciousness, mind, and heart. When the soul submits to the Holy Spirit, is what is called the second birth into God's family, and is spiritual. Our spirit does not reside in a body. That is how the Holy Spirit works, or a spirit was sent in the OT like to Saul or those prophets in 1 Kings 22. Or the worse effect by a spirit being demonic possession, where a person invites the spiritual into their soul. That is why the occult is banned. God does not want humans to experience the spiritual side of creation, outside of the Holy Spirit working in humanity.

This spiritual body in 2 Corinthians 5 or other chapters explained by Paul is not the difference between physical and spiritual. It is the difference between carnal and "of God". Spiritual is being like God. But God also became like physical humanity in the form of Jesus Christ. That is why Paul stated this as corruption and incorruption, and death and life. Paul never pitted the physical against the spiritual.

In John 3, Jesus did not pit the physical against the spiritual. Jesus said you had to have both the physical and spiritual to be complete, not one or the other.

Since Adam disobeyed God, his soul left a permanent incorruptible physical body, and was placed in a temporal corruptible physical body. That was the death he experienced, and he was stripped of the spirit which was put on over the physical body. They had no need for physical clothing, because they were covered by the spirit which was light. God is manifested in the physical as light. 1 John 1:5

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

Revelation 21:23-24

"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it."

Matthew 17:2

"And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light."

John calls it putting on the "robe of white". Paul calls it death putting on life. Putting on the spirit is being glorified. Daniel 12:3

"And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

Matthew 13:43

"Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

The spirit put on is what makes us physically shine as a bright light. So there is not a contrast between physical and spiritual. They both together make us a whole being. Apart they place us in a state of death.

Dust is just a way for all humanity to understand the atomic building blocks of creation. Those building blocks are not one thing in heaven and another thing on earth. Dust is referring to the entire creation as the structure that holds everything together. When this body of death dissolves it no longer has a noticeable form, but the structure of the individual atoms does not cease to exist.

The dead will continue to wait as souls until the very end when they stand before God. But the redeemed have been physically enjoying Paradise with a permanent incorruptible physical body since the Cross.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Seems some of God's redeemed don't know this fact, that Paul said all in Christ should know. They are still arguing over the words of Solomon, who wrote stuff after being married to a thousand wives and concubines.

"The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity....And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow."

 

[Freedm]

Speaking of spirits, I've seen several videos of orbs that I'd like to get some opinions on. The one that I'd really like to share, I can't find it right now, it was featured on the Secret of Skinwalker Ranch show, but here's another example of an orb. Are these orbs spirits?