The end in relation to when Christ initially returns.

[Zao is life]

Every Preterist(meaning Partial not Full Preterists in this case) I have ever discussed/debated these things with, none of them think Christ returned in 70 AD. That is not how they are applying that coming. They are applying that coming as a coming in judgment against unbelieving Jews. But even so, the coming recorded in the Discourse has zero to do with a coming in judgment in 70 AD. Even though a judgment occurred in 70 AD, that is not what the coming of Christ recorded in the OD is involving. Most of us already realize that, Preterists don't. What is mainly tripping them up IMO, is that they are unable or maybe unwilling, to interpret Matthew 24:34 correctly. In their mind this generation can only be meaning those living in the first century when Jesus spoke those words.

Trying to convince a Preterist that they are incorrect about some of these things is like trying to convince Amils they are incorrect about some things. No need to try and convince Premils they are incorrect about things though, since Premils are never incorrect about things. Just kidding of course. Of course Premils are wrong about some things just like any other position is wrong about some things.

In my experience of dealing with Preterists I've found that Preterism causes the mind of Preterists to become even more locked by that Preterist doctrinal programming than anything else that is not a cult.

In my experience the programming of the mind by Preterist doctine is as powerful as that of the JW's, though Preterism is not a cult (because they acknowledge the Trinity and the only gospel of salvation, as well as the authority of the scriptures, without changing them as they go about forcing the interpretation of everything that is written to conform to Preterist doctrine).

 

[rwb]

There was a gospel of the coming seed of Abraham though. The three kings worshiped Him when He was born, because they had knowledge of the gospel. It was first preached to Abraham, and Abraham believed and it was credited to him for righteousness.

Through his seed, Joseph and Ephraim (the house of Israel), he had become the father of many Gentile nations even long before Christ was born.​

All of Israel and anyone with knowledge of the Jewish Law and the Prophets knew of the coming of a Messiah who would save Israel. But they only knew of Him as a coming Messiah, they could not know the name of Jesus before He literally came and they called Him by that name. The prophets of Old, Moses, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for example knew the Messiah would come from that lineage, from the tribe of Judah and be born in Bethlehem. This was commonly known in Israel and known also to any Gentile living among them. That's why a few Jews who were waiting for their Messiah and looking for Him, accepted Jesus by grace through faith even though the majority of the nation rejected Him and cried "crucify Him."

 

[rwb]

No I'm not. But you are indeed implying that Satan is at the very least as powerful as God by stating that he needed to be bound or limited in terms of his ability to deceive the nations, so that the gospel of the Kingdom could be spread to the nations.

The Holy Spirit is infinitely more powerful than Satan. God had no need to bind or limit Satan any more than he always was limited by God in order that the gospel of the Kingdom could be spread among the nations.​

I agree that Satan has never been more powerful than God! He is allowed to do only what God permits, and from the fall God allows mankind who have all submitted to him to do according to his (Satan's) will. We desired to hear the voice of evil in the beginning, so his is the only voice we hear as long as we remain under his power in unbelief in this world. We can only hear the voice of Jesus calling us through His Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit when we are born again. Satan's binding through the advent of Christ coming to earth would change that, because the Gospel would not only be sent unto all the nations of the world, but so too the power of His Word and Spirit, which would bring His Light and eternal Life to whosoever believes by grace through faith, IOW all who are ordained to eternal life shall believe.

Those who believe Satan is not yet bound, and that when he is finally bound there will be no more evil but only peace in this world lack understanding. Evil that proceeds from Satan working through the hearts of fallen mankind will be found on this earth until the end of days when Christ returns and makes a final end of all evil and physical death.

 

[Zao is life]

Those who believe Satan is not yet bound, and that when he is finally bound there will be no more evil but only peace in this world lack understanding. Evil that proceeds from Satan working through the hearts of fallen mankind will be found on this earth until the end of days when Christ returns and makes a final end of all evil and physical death.

Actually the truth of the matter is that those who believe Satan is currently bound, and will be unbound again for brief period before Christ returns, lack understanding. Evil that proceeds from Satan working through the hearts of fallen mankind will be found on this earth until the end of the Age (Matthew 24:3) when Christ returns, destroys the beast and false prophet, and Satan is bound for a thousand years.​

 

[Zao is life]

There was a gospel of the coming seed of Abraham though. The three kings worshiped Him when He was born, because they had knowledge of the gospel. It was first preached to Abraham, and Abraham believed and it was credited to him for righteousness.

Through his seed, Joseph and Ephraim (the house of Israel), he had become the father of many Gentile nations even long before Christ was born.​

All of Israel and anyone with knowledge of the Jewish Law and the Prophets knew of the coming of a Messiah who would save Israel. But they only knew of Him as a coming Messiah, they could not know the name of Jesus before He literally came and they called Him by that name. The prophets of Old, Moses, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for example knew the Messiah would come from that lineage, from the tribe of Judah and be born in Bethlehem. This was commonly known in Israel and known also to any Gentile living among them. That's why a few Jews who were waiting for their Messiah and looking for Him, accepted Jesus by grace through faith even though the majority of the nation rejected Him and cried "crucify Him."

That's because There was a gospel of the coming seed of Abraham. The three kings worshiped Him when He was born, because they had knowledge of the gospel. It was first preached to Abraham, and Abraham believed and it was credited to him for righteousness.

Through his seed, Joseph and Ephraim (the house of Israel), he had become the father of many Gentile nations even long before Christ was born.​

 

[rwb]

Actually the truth of the matter is that those who believe Satan is currently bound, and will be unbound again for brief period before Christ returns, lack understanding. Evil that proceeds from Satan working through the hearts of fallen mankind will be found on this earth until the end of the Age (Matthew 24:3) when Christ returns, destroys the beast and false prophet, and Satan is bound for a thousand years.​

Please explain how you think Mt 24:3 helps you to arrive at this opinion??? Your opinions are not persuasive unless you can prove from Scripture what you allege. How for instance can you prove from Scripture there shall be a thousand more years of time given this earth when Satan is bound in the future?

 

[Zao is life]

Please explain how you think Mt 24:3 helps you to arrive at this opinion??? Your opinions are not persuasive unless you can prove from Scripture what you allege. How for instance can you prove from Scripture there shall be a thousand more years of time given this earth when Satan is bound in the future?

I have already proved it from scripture, quoting scripture all along.

Matthew 24:3 mentions the disciples asking Jesus about the end of the Age, while your statement refers to the end of the Age as "the end of days", in line with your own private interpretation of the matters.

Your opinions are not persuasive unless you can prove from Scripture what you allege. How for instance can you prove from scripture Satan is currently bound when you can provide no scriptures or verses to state that he is?

 

[rwb]

I have already proved it from scripture, quoting scripture all along.

Matthew 24:3 mentions the disciples asking Jesus about the end of the Age, while your statement refers to the end of the Age as "the end of days", in line with your own private interpretation of the matters.

Your opinions are not persuasive unless you can prove from Scripture what you allege. How for instance can you prove from scripture Satan is currently bound when you can provide no scriptures or verses to state that he is?

First 'end of the age' and 'end of days' is saying the same thing, age is days. If you've used Scripture to prove Mt 24:3 somehow proves your opinion that Satan was not bound through the first advent of Christ, I missed it!

It can be proven from Rev 20 that the thousand years that is when Satan is bound equates to time given not only for his binding, but also time given the Church to build the spiritual Kingdom of God as the Gospel is sent unto all the nations of the world and people from all the nations of the world (Gentiles) are completing the Kingdom of God as they are born again through hearing the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Rev 20 begins with John writing of Satan's binding for a thousand years, at the end of which he is set free for a llittle season. Then John writes of faithful saints who during their lifetimes lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The same thousand years when Satan is bound. That means these martyred saints had already lived and died in time written to be a thousand years. That means the binding of Satan during this same period of time had already begun. If Satan's binding had not already begun how could these martyred saints have lived and reigned with Christ during this same period of time? Yet that is what John writes, "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years".

Then John writes of the rest of the dead who will not live again until the thousand years expire. They are not among those who have lived and reigned and been martyred during their lifetimes with Christ for a thousand years. That's why John separates them from those martyred souls in heaven. Then John writes "this is the first resurrection." When we remember there were no verses separated we read this statement with the verse following (vs 6) where John writes of other faithful saints who are not among the martyred saints already mentioned, as being blessed and holy, having part in the first resurrection, have overcome the power of the second death, are priests of Christ and God who shall also reign with Christ during their lifetimes for this same period of time of a thousand years.

Through this passage is found proof that a/the thousand years is not literal time, but symbolic of time when Satan was bound and the Gospel of Christ proclaimed and the spiritual Kingdom of God being built.

John concludes by telling us what shall become of those who are never among the martyred saints and are never among those called blessed and holy. They are the spiritually dead who will never live and die in Christ, they will never have eternal life by being born again through Christ's Spirit. They are the culmination of Gog (antichrists) and Magog (antichristian group) that Satan gathers together when he is set free to try one last time to prevent the spiritual Kingdom of God from being complete. They shall be "the dead" who must stand before the GWT Judgment to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life. Their final fate, since during their lifetimes (a/the thousand years) they never lived or reigned with Christ, is to be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death.

That marks the final end for this earth and all who live on it. At the end of days/this age/the age of the Gospel of grace the seventh trumpet will begin to sound and mankind will either be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, or caught on fire and destroyed by the flames of God coming down from heaven to burn up this first earth to make way for the new heaven and new earth. There will not be another one thousand years given this earth when the last trumpet sounds, because it is written "that there should be time no longer" (Rev 10:6-7) when the seventh trumpet begins to sound. The same last trumpet that Paul writes in 1Cor 15 when faithful saints shall be physically resurrected immortal and incorruptible when the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete.

 

[PinSeeker]

No, Christ did not return in 70 AD. He will not return before the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete, and the seventh trumpet sounds that time shall be no longer. Sin has not ended, but the power of sin that held us in fear of the power of death has ended for all who are born again.

Well, good. Preterists basically believe all of the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled in the first century. So, would you say you're a partial Preterist?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

Rev 20 begins with John writing of Satan's binding for a thousand years, at the end of which he is set free for a llittle season. Then John writes of faithful saints who during their lifetimes lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The same thousand years when Satan is bound. That means these martyred saints had already lived and died in time written to be a thousand years. That means the binding of Satan during this same period of time had already begun. If Satan's binding had not already begun how could these martyred saints have lived and reigned with Christ during this same period of time? Yet that is what John writes, "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years".

Without this event happening first, the first resurrection, they don't live and reign with Christ yet. I'm pretty sure even you would agree with that. It then is a matter of determining what is meant by the first resurrection and when it is meaning in relation to the thousand years. Verse 4 gives us some clues, which BTW, you rarely see Amils even mentioning this part and how it supposedly helps to support their position, meaning this part---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them(Revelation 20:4)

What I just submitted per verse 4, what is that all about and how does that help prove that the thousand years are pertaining to this age? This judgment that is given to them, when did this happen and what did it look like when it happened? These thrones, what is that all about?

Speaking for myself, I tend to think Daniel 7 might be able to help us out here.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Verse 21 is obviously, or at least it's plainly obvious to me, involving the 42 month reign of the beast that must precede the 2nd coming according to the book of Revelation. That would obviously mean that verse 22 is pertaining to the 2nd coming in the end of this age. And look what verse 22 says---and judgment was given to---exactly what Revelation 20:4 says. And then it goes on to say---and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. You might argue that Revelation 20:4 mentions thrones, Daniel 7:22 doesn't. Therefore, these accounts are not involving the same events.

Let's not forget though, verse 22 would be the interpretation of something mentioned earlier. Which means verse 22 is the interpretation of verses 9-12. There's your thrones then, since verses 9-12 clearly involve thrones. No matter how you look at it, verses 9-12 are involving the time of Revelation 19:20. Which apparently means Revelation 20 chronologically follows ch 19 if Daniel 7:22 is involving Revelation 20:4 and that Daniel 7:22 is involving Daniel 7:9-12 and that Daniel 7:9-12 is involving Revelation 19:20.

If Amils disagree, and I'm sure they do, Amils then need to prove there is no connection between all of the following, that none of these are involving the same events, the same era of time. Daniel 7:21-22, Daniel 7:9-12, Revelation 19:20, and Revelation 20:4.

What I'm basically arguing here----and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Daniel 7:22), that this is meaning Revelation 20:4 and the beginning of the thousand years. And if verse 22 is involving the 2nd coming, how can Amils logically insist that the thousand years began 2000 years ago when Daniel 7:22 hasn't even been fulfilled yet? Clearly, verse 22 is meaning after the events involving verse 21, the 42 month reign of the beast according to Revelation 13.

 

[rwb]

Well, good. Preterists basically believe all of the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled in the first century. So, would you say you're a partial Preterist?

Grace and peace to you.

No! I try to distance myself from all forms of Preterism. My view is that prophecy has dual fulfillment with the main focus being the Chruch that Christ came to this world with. Preterits seem to have their mind fixed mostly on Jerusalem of Old whether they be partial or full.

Grace and peace to you also.

 

[rwb]

Without this event happening first, the first resurrection, they don't live and reign with Christ yet.

You believe the first resurrection is physical because of how you view end of days prophecy. I believe the first resurrection is also physical, but it is the resurrection of Christ we must have part in before we physically die to have eternal life through Him. Look carefully at what John writes. Of those martyred saints they have lived and reigned in life before they were physically martyred. There is only one period of time called a thousand years.

BTW, you rarely see Amils even mentioning this part and how it supposedly helps to support their position, meaning this part---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them(Revelation 20:4)

This is all symbolic language that I believe we cannot understand if we try to force a literal interpretation. Ask yourself what the symbolism of sitting on thrones has to do with the martyred saints, who are given judgment of what and according to what, whether in life or in heaven after physical death matters not?

What I just submitted per verse 4, what is that all about and how does that help prove that the thousand years are pertaining to this age? This judgment that is given to them, when did this happen and what did it look like when it happened? These thrones, what is that all about?

What judgment are for saints who are in life said to be kings and priests? Is that not what being seated on thrones about? They were in the spiritual Kingdom of God before they died. Those in the Kingdom of God have power and authority through His Word and Spirit. Because saints take the Word unto all the nations of the earth and it is through His Word, called a two-edged sword that brings judgment of mankind's heart. Scripture even says the Word is able to divide the soul and spirit of man and is the discerner of man's heart and mind. It was through proving themselves faithful unto death in service to the Lord they were martyred during their lifetime when they had lived and reigned with Christ during this symbolic time written a thousand years.

Speaking for myself, I tend to think Daniel 7 might be able to help us out here.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

I agree! That's why I said it matters not whether in life or after, as saints we have already prevailed and this passage speaks of what John writes of these martyred souls in heaven who were faithful unto death. After His resurrection Christ ascended to heaven taking those who had already died in faith with Him be a spiritual body of believers in heaven that John is given to know are alive after death. John is proving that physical death has no power of all who live and die in Christ who are faithful unto death.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

The first advent of Christ fulfilled the prophecy written here by Him giving His life to atone for sin, and defeating death by His resurrection. That's why we must have part in Christ's resurrection life before we die if we desire to have eternal life through Him. Because Christ is the "first resurrection" and all who live and die in Him have eternal spiritual life that shall never die.

 

[Davidpt]

I really don't understand the mind that believes Christ came in 70 AD to judge Israel of Old. They use the writings found in the prophets of old and say see how they speak as the LORD coming in clouds etc. and His wrath was poured out on them. Where in those writings do the prophets speak of Jesus coming again when God's wrath was poured out? What happened in 70 AD was the wrath of God, He had promised would come was poured out upon them one last time, only this time His wrath would make a complete end of them ever being the chosen people of God again. The only Jews eternally saved from Israel of Old is the remnant according to election of grace.

I agree, the outpouring of God's wrath on a disobedient people who had become abominable to God poured out on them in 70 AD has no connection with Christ coming again in the end of days. Great tribulation of God was indeed poured upon Israel back then, but that was only a small sampling of the great tribulation that would come against Christ and His Church as the Gospel is sent unto all the world. Not even 70 AD is greater than tribulation the Church on earth has sustained in this world and yet She continues to be alive and is even still growing.

Yet, I don't grasp some of the logic you are using here though I do agree with some of it. As to great tribulation, there is only going to be one, not two, where one was involving unbelieving Jews in the first century, the other involving the church. What happened to the Jews per 70 AD has zero to do with an AOD involving great tribulation.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


This part makes it clear---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be---that when this happens nothing in the past equals nor surpasses it, nor will anything after it has passed equal nor surpass it in the future. Therefore, this event can only happen one time. Ether it has already happened or it is yet to happen. My vote is the latter.

 

[PinSeeker]

Try to consider carefully why I am saying what I am saying in reply to your points (please).

You mean as if I don't always do so? <chuckles>

At least it will help you to understand what my thinking is about this and why I cannot be Amil:

Well, I pretty much do. But everybody can change his/her mind, so never says "never"...

Forget about root words...

Well, we can't forget about the language (Koine Greek) in which the New Testament was written. Hey, you've pointed out the New Testament Greek in many of your posts ~ even in the same context that "this same Greek word that is used here is also used there and there..." ~ but now you're wanting to "forget about the words"?

...individuals collectively make up peoples, nations, tribes and tongues.

Sure they do, but that does not somehow negate the difference.

Well I think you know as well as I do that whether or not it contradicts John's vision of the binding of Satan, depends on where in time you place John's vision, so .. no evidence presented there

LOL! No, it does not "depend on where in time you place John's vision" at all; it is what it is. But "no evidence" that you will accept... I certainly get that, and surely not for the first time...

What (in my opinion) Amils are failing to see (as seen in your statement above) is that what you are implying, is that Satan is at the very least as powerful as the Holy Spirit, and therefore needed to be bound because, failing Satan being bound, "the gospel could not spread the way it has been", and either no one could be saved, OR almost all seed planted by the Spirit of Christ on the heart would have fallen by the wayside.

You know, Fullness of the Gentiles, what you say here is really quite ridiculous. I mean no offense, but yes, quite ridiculous. All I'll say to this is two things:

• No, Satan is not nearly as powerful as the Holy Spirit ~ Who (well, I think you agree with this, but maybe not...) is God. So I'm not at all implying that, nor is any "Amill" worth his or her salt. I get that some folks may somehow get that idea about amillennialism ~ somehow ~ or just want to portray amillennialism in that (or other) absurd light, but, whatever the case... What you're saying here is... well, misguided at best, but in the end ridiculous.
• It may sound simple ~ or like some kind of cop-out, but most certainly it is not ~ but God has made things to be how He has made things to be, He has done what He has done, things are as they are and will be as they will be because God has decreed it. To "steal" Paul's question in Romans 9 ~ which is in a little different context, but applies here, just a little bit differently ~ who are we to answer back to God? And so, slightly different from Paul's “Why have you made me like this?” there, we cannot really ask, "Why did you make things to be as you have made them to be?" So for anyone to suppose that Satan "had to be bound because otherwise the gospel could not spread the way it has been" is just silly. It's just... how God has done things, how He has made things to be.

The gospel of God is able to go out into the nations and do what it has done despite Satan's attempts at hindrance.

Yet, before Jesus came, it did not. See, here, I think the thing to do would be to discuss at least one of the basic differences between the Old Testament and the New Testament, and, as I have said, lesser Israel and greater Israel... And this is where the misunderstandings of premillennialism really come from.

The Holy Spirit will not prevent someone from making that choice - and the individual, through his own choice, will have left the seed sown in his heart wide open for Satan to snatch away...

Ah yes, free will! Another... well, another... trouble spot... I mean, certainly not to deny that we have free will or make choices, but...

...asserting that he is bound because it's necessary to stop him from being able to hinder the gospel in the way that you assert above, is implying that he is as powerful as the Holy Spirit, and therefore needed to be bound.​

But I didn't assert that or insinuate that at all, nor does Amillennialism make that assertion or insinuation. So again, is your saying this just in error, inadvertent, a misunderstanding? Or is it an intentional mischaracterization... what we might call a false setup, or a strawman argument?

All that the above is proof of, is that whether before or after Christ died and rose again, He (Christ) is more powerful than Satan - infinitely more powerful - and is able to bind Satan at will - which is exactly what He was doing before His crucifixion.

Hmmm, well, I think in this statement you're very close to agreeing with me.

Think about it. Yeah... "as if you haven't"... Yeah, sorry...

Just in the immediate context of Matthew 12, Jesus had cast out demons, and He was telling the Pharisees, "if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you... how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house..."

And John says, "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain... He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended..."

Even beyond the Greek 'deō' ('binds'/'bound') in those two passages, the parallel is irrefutable.

I don't know if my memory is just giving me a guilt trip to be even more sarcastic with me, but I have in the back of my mind that quite a while back I took your playful light sarcasm up in the wrong way (meaning I wrongly thought it was meant to belittle), and reacted badly. I sincerely apologize if you have any memory in that regard.

Bygones. No worries. Grace is not optional.

I was merely trying to make the point that he is defeated, but not yet destroyed in the lake of fire.

Well, good.

And what I was implying was "likewise, he is defeated, but not yet bound from being able to deceive the nations"

Hm. Yes, as you might have imagined I would when you typed this, I see this one little statement as quite contradictory in and of itself. Interesting...

(through religious words that are lies).

No idea what you mean by this parenthetical comment, but no matter...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[grafted branch]

This part makes it clear---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be---that when this happens nothing in the past equals nor surpasses it, nor will anything after it has passed equal nor surpass it in the future. Therefore, this event can only happen one time. Ether it has already happened or it is yet to happen. My vote is the latter.

1 Peter 3:20 says while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. Do you think the future great tribulation will have less than eight people that are able to survive and make it through?

 

[rwb]

This part makes it clear---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be---that when this happens nothing in the past equals nor surpasses it, nor will anything after it has passed equal nor surpass it in the future. Therefore, this event can only happen one time. Ether it has already happened or it is yet to happen. My vote is the latter.

Yes, there is only one great tribulation, with dual fulfillment! Great tribulation is associated with the Gospel being preached unto all the nations of the world. Though it isn't clear in Matthew, Luke helps us to see how "great tribulation" associated with the Gospel proclaimed also came upon the nation of Israel as well as the Church of Christ. Both are symbolic of the Kingdom of God and what happens to Israel was written to be an example to the Church. Israel was called to make God known to the world, instead it became like the world. The same promise is to all who profess the name of Christ. If we say we are the Church of Christ, then we must be His servants and take forth the message about Him, the Gospel unto all the nations of the world. Just as there has always been a remnant saved according to election of grace found in Israel, so too there will always be a faithful people called by the name of Christ called the Church. Just as Israel in unbelief was utterly destroyed through apostacy and unbelief, so too those who call themselves Christian shall have the same great tribulation poured out upon the nation poured upon them. It is during this age of the Gospel that "great tribulation" has come to the world, and it will not end until the seventh trumpet sounds that Christ has come again.

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:21 (KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Luke 19:41-44 (KJV) And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

 

[Timtofly]

Where is the pit that he is bound in David?

When Christ was born the war that took place in heaven ejected Satan from heaven and cast him to the earth where he is now bound as king of the bottomless pit. What is the bottomless pit if it is not bound to be ruler over the dead? Satan is bound to this earth in his pit of death, and can no longer freely roam from heaven to earth as he once did (see Job). It is written by him being cast out of heaven and to the earth he is no longer able to accuse the saints before God day and night. Why? Because in Christ the saints have been set free from bondage to fear of death Satan once had power to hold them in. Christ defeated death through promise from the foundation of the world, being, according to promise the slain Lamb who would take away sin and defeat death. When Christ was born and Satan was cast to earth, that bound him to the pit of death that is in the earth, it is the place of the dead, the grave. He isn't literally bound with literal chains in a literal pit. This is all symbolic language that we might know the battle between Satan and Christ is not physical warfare but spiritual with physical consequences.

If we don't understand the binding of Satan, how can we ever understand the spiritual Kingdom that Christ came to earth with that is entered through Christ's Spirit within when we are born again?

Prior to the first advent of Christ the only nation to have heard of the Messiah who would come to be their Saviour was the nation of Israel. Which is why it is written that Satan is bound so that he can no longer deceive the nations (Gentiles). Prior to the birth of Christ, Satan had access to the realm of heaven, and only a remnant of the Jews believed the prophecy about a coming Messiah/Saviour. Because the Holy Spirit was not yet permanently within believers, these first Jewish saints were required to make blood sacrifices again and again. That left them without confidence that their faith in the Messiah to come was eternal. This is how Satan was able to accuse them before God day and night. The Covenant ordained in heaven from the foundation of the world could not give the saints of old assurance of life after death because death had not yet been defeated through the resurrection of Christ.

I'll stop here for now David, because I'm running out of time now, but I would very much like to continue our discussion.

Satan was not cast out of heaven with his angels in the first century, the birth of Christ.

Satan was cast out after this child had already been in heaven for some time.

For one thing, those rebel angels are still bound in the pit in chains of darkness.

One would not say those angels rebelled against God in the first century. Israel did not become a nation in the first century. Some of that symbolic imagery in Revelation 12 goes back to when the angels rebelled, probably prior to the Flood. Israel was a nation before going into Egypt. The dragon represents the image of Daniel 2, which happened after Israel had already been a nation for about a thousand years. Babylon, the Medes and Persians, and Greece, already past history in the first century. The first century was Rome, the 4th head of this beast. One cannot say that Revelation 12 is limited to the first century and was over in 70AD.


The 5th Trumpet is when those angels are released from the pit, so they can attack heaven and be cast out by Michael for the last time.

"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

Revelation 12 goes back through history to get us caught up on Satan who is being talked about in relationship to the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The 5th, 6th, and 7th Trumpets each had a woe attached. Satan coming to earth after being cast out at the 7th Trumpet along with his angels is the 3rd woe.

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

So Satan was not cast out in the first century but during the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The 1st woe being his angels released from the pit.

Revelation 18 is describing Jerusalem after Satan has been allowed 100% control of the earth for 42 months. Satan has turned God's throne in Jerusalem into a mockery, thus mystery Babylon. This is the time of the abomination of desolation mentioned in Matthew 24:15. Any one with a hint of common sense should flee Jerusalem if Satan is given 100% control. They should flee the entire area, because there will only be death and abomination going on for the next 3.5 years. Only those removed from the Lamb's book of life and given the mark will find satisfaction in all the wickedness that will go on there. Jerusalem will be made the pit of sheol on earth, literally.

What the church does protect against is the gates of sheol being made a reality on earth, although the apostate church let a bunch of wickedness in over the years.

 

[Davidpt]

1 Peter 3:20 says while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. Do you think the future great tribulation will have less than eight people that are able to survive and make it through?

You are comparing apples to oranges. Nothing pertaining to Noah's flood was involving tribulation, it was involving judgment and wrath, God's wrath. As to great tribulation, it is not involving God's wrath and judgment if it it pertaining to great tribulation involving the church. God's wrath and judgment comes after great tribulation, not during it. This is what happens when one conflates great tribulaion with that of the events involving 70 AD. They wrongly assume great tribulation is involving God's wrath and judgment the fact 70 AD involved that. Except nothing pertaining to 70 AD was involving great tribulation.

To apply great tribulation to that of 70 AD is to then apply the following to unbelieving Jews, that it is unbelieving Jews per 70 AD is who is being meant here.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


IOW, the questions you raise are not valid per my perspective of things. Noah's flood can't be compared to great tribulation since the former is involving God's wrath and judgment while the latter isn't. What I brought up per Revelation 7 alone proves it.

 

[grafted branch]

You are comparing apples to oranges. Nothing pertaining to Noah's flood was involving tribulation, it was involving judgment and wrath, God's wrath. As to great tribulation, it is not involving God's wrath and judgment if it it pertaining to great tribulation involving the church. God's wrath and judgment comes after great tribulation, not during it. This is what happens when one conflates great tribulaion with that of the events involving 70 AD. They wrongly assume great tribulation is involving God's wrath and judgment the fact 70 AD involved that. Except nothing pertaining to 70 AD was involving great tribulation.

To apply great tribulation to that of 70 AD is to then apply the following to unbelieving Jews, that it is unbelieving Jews per 70 AD is who is being meant here.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


IOW, the questions you raise are not valid per my perspective of things. Noah's flood can't be compared to great tribulation since the former is involving God's wrath and judgment while the latter isn't. What I brought up per Revelation 7 alone proves it.

So what you’re saying is in the past there are events that are greater in scope as far as death and physical destruction than the Matthew 24 tribulation because they are wrath not tribulation. If this is the case then the great tribulation could end up being mild in comparison.

I guess it could be kinda like saying I had the greatest hang nail ever and there will never be a hang nail like it ever again. But when compared to something like a heart attack it is mild.

 

[Davidpt]

Yes, there is only one great tribulation, with dual fulfillment! Great tribulation is associated with the Gospel being preached unto all the nations of the world. Though it isn't clear in Matthew, Luke helps us to see how "great tribulation" associated with the Gospel proclaimed also came upon the nation of Israel as well as the Church of Christ. Both are symbolic of the Kingdom of God and what happens to Israel was written to be an example to the Church. Israel was called to make God known to the world, instead it became like the world. The same promise is to all who profess the name of Christ. If we say we are the Church of Christ, then we must be His servants and take forth the message about Him, the Gospel unto all the nations of the world. Just as there has always been a remnant saved according to election of grace found in Israel, so too there will always be a faithful people called by the name of Christ called the Church. Just as Israel in unbelief was utterly destroyed through apostacy and unbelief, so too those who call themselves Christian shall have the same great tribulation poured out upon the nation poured upon them. It is during this age of the Gospel that "great tribulation" has come to the world, and it will not end until the seventh trumpet sounds that Christ has come again.

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:21 (KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Luke 19:41-44 (KJV) And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

And yet here is some more of your logic I can't seem to grasp, that how a one time only event can have a dual fulfillment?