The end in relation to when Christ initially returns.

[Davidpt]

I'm new here and all, yet some of you already know me from other boards since I recognize some of you from these same boards.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

I would think, if nothing else, pretty much everyone is in agreement that verse 24 is meaning after the great white throne judgment.

So let's assume a hypothetical scenario here. When Christ intially returns it is 12 PM central time on a Monday of a particular month and a particular year. Obviously, for example, 24 hours later it is another day, thus no longer this same day He initially returned. Unless the end meant in verse 24 above occurs within 24 hours or less of Him having returned, it is ludicrous to insist there are no more days remaining once He has returned.

The point being, no way could the great white throne judgment be involving just 24 hours or less. Therefore, once He returns there has to be more days remaining in order to allow for the great white throne judgment eventually. Which means it is not preposterous that some of these days can be involving the millennium and satan's little season after He has initially returned since it is already impossible that verse 24 above can be meaning within 24 hours or less of Him having returned based on the amount of time the great white throne judgment alone will be involving.

For some reason Amils just can't seem to grasp how utterly ludicrous it is that verse 24 above is meaning 24 hours or less of Him having returned. As if it makes sense that in this same 24 hour window of time the great white throne judgment begins and is finished entirely.

 

[quietthinker]

I'm new here and all, yet some of you already know me from other boards since I recognize some of you from these same boards.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

I would think, if nothing else, pretty much everyone is in agreement that verse 24 is meaning after the great white throne judgment.

So let's assume a hypothetical scenario here. When Christ intially returns it is 12 PM central time on a Monday of a particular month and a particular year. Obviously, for example, 24 hours later it is another day, thus no longer this same day He initially returned. Unless the end meant in verse 24 above occurs within 24 hours or less of Him having returned, it is ludicrous to insist there are no more days remaining once He has returned.

The point being, no way could the great white throne judgment be involving just 24 hours or less. Therefore, once He returns there has to be more days remaining in order to allow for the great white throne judgment eventually. Which means it is not preposterous that some of these days can be involving the millennium and satan's little season after He has initially returned since it is already impossible that verse 24 above can be meaning within 24 hours or less of Him having returned based on the amount of time the great white throne judgment alone will be involving.

For some reason Amils just can't seem to grasp how utterly ludicrous it is that verse 24 above is meaning 24 hours or less of Him having returned. As if it makes sense that in this same 24 hour window of time the great white throne judgment begins and is finished entirely.

'the end' is reference to the finality of the cosmic battle being waged on this Earth.....the which either side vies for allegiance.

 

[Davidpt]

'the end' is reference to the finality of the cosmic battle being waged on this Earth.....the which either side vies for allegiance.

What does this mean per your view of things? Does it mean that the end meant in 1 Corinthians 15:24 can mean within 24 hours of Him having returned? Thus the end meant is meaning before the time of the great white throne judgment rather than after? Unfortunately, your position is unclear to to me at this point in time and that I'm unable to determine your position solely based on what you submitted.

 

[quietthinker]

What does this mean per your view of things? Does it mean that the end meant in 1 Corinthians 15:24 can mean within 24 hours of Him having returned? Thus the end meant is meaning before the time of the great white throne judgment rather than after? Unfortunately, your position is unclear to to me at this point in time and that I'm unable to determine your position solely based on what you submitted.

David, respectfully, I submit that my post is unclear to you because of a faulty expectation (theology)
A revisiting of your expectation is helpful. Are you open to this?

 

[Davidpt]

David, respectfully, I submit that my post is unclear to you because of a faulty expectation (theology)
A revisiting of your expectation is helpful. Are you open to this?

For the most part I'm basically open to pretty much anything if there is at least sound logic to it. Currently I'm not seeing how the end meant in 1 Corinthians 15:24 could be meaning within 24 hours of His return though. In my view the end meant in that verse can't even happen until after the great white throne judgment has concluded first, and that there is no way the great white throne judgment can logically fit into a 24 hour period of time. Therefore, the end meant in 1 Corinthians 15:24 couldn't possibly be meaning the same day He returns unless that day is involving an era of time rather than a literal 24 hour period.

 

[quietthinker]

For the most part I'm basically open to pretty much anything if there is at least sound logic to it. Currently I'm not seeing how the end meant in 1 Corinthians 15:24 could be meaning within 24 hours of His return though. In my view the end meant in that verse can't even happen until after the great white throne judgment has concluded first, and that there is no way the great white throne judgment can logically fit into a 24 hour period of time. Therefore, the end meant in 1 Corinthians 15:24 couldn't possibly be meaning the same day He returns unless that day is involving an era of time rather than a literal 24 hour period.

Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:24 is giving us a compacted sequence. 'Then comes the end' he says, an event after Jesus return.

Verse 22 starts with Adam, verse 23 Jesus' return (no chronological detail given of the time in between) verse 24, 'then comes the end' (no chronological time given between Jesus return and 'the end'.
We know there are various 'ends'. There is 'it is finished' at Calvary, then there is 'it is done' in Revelation 21:6....and so on.

It is not necessary to insist or debate whether 'the end' is restricted to Earths rotation on its axis ie, 24 hours.
God's 'timetable' so to speak, revolves around the remedy to sin in a cosmic setting....a setting in which Earth is intimately involved ( critically visited by God made flesh) yet not exclusive to Earths 'rotations'.

 

[Davy]

I'm new here and all, yet some of you already know me from other boards since I recognize some of you from these same boards.

....

I wouldn't pay much attention to arguments by those on the 2nd century A.D. Gnostic doctrine called Amillennialism.

So many of their made-up doctrines fall flat compared to God's Word, it's no sense to debate with them.

The Zechariah 14 Chapter is one place that confirms that Jesus will reign over the unsaved nations after His future return. Amill instead wrongly believes all the wicked are destroyed on the day of Christ's return.

Isaiah 24:20-23 also confirms the kings of the earth will be locked in Satan's pit prison, and after many days (Millennium) shall be visited.

Revelation 22:14-15 reveals the Tree of Life (and thus God's River) will exist inside the 'gates' of the holy city on earth, while the wicked will be outside the gates (suggesting that's the place of the "outer darkness" Jesus taught). That ties in with the time of Ezekiel 47 about God's River flowing out of the sanctuary, and on either side of that River are the many trees, the Tree of Life. I think it's because of these references in Rev.21-22 that Amill gets confused about the timeline for God's future new heavens and a new earth. Christ is bringing some earth changes on the day of His coming, like the Millennial temple and return of God's River of Gen.2. But that still is not the NHNE time.

 

[Zao is life]

I'm new here and all, yet some of you already know me from other boards since I recognize some of you from these same boards.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

I would think, if nothing else, pretty much everyone is in agreement that verse 24 is meaning after the great white throne judgment.

So let's assume a hypothetical scenario here. When Christ intially returns it is 12 PM central time on a Monday of a particular month and a particular year. Obviously, for example, 24 hours later it is another day, thus no longer this same day He initially returned. Unless the end meant in verse 24 above occurs within 24 hours or less of Him having returned, it is ludicrous to insist there are no more days remaining once He has returned.

The point being, no way could the great white throne judgment be involving just 24 hours or less. Therefore, once He returns there has to be more days remaining in order to allow for the great white throne judgment eventually. Which means it is not preposterous that some of these days can be involving the millennium and satan's little season after He has initially returned since it is already impossible that verse 24 above can be meaning within 24 hours or less of Him having returned based on the amount of time the great white throne judgment alone will be involving.

For some reason Amils just can't seem to grasp how utterly ludicrous it is that verse 24 above is meaning 24 hours or less of Him having returned. As if it makes sense that in this same 24 hour window of time the great white throne judgment begins and is finished entirely.

Let's talk about something that makes you not want to talk to me. AE4 is a biblical type of someone. He fulfilled a lot of stuff but he did not fulfil everything that was written.

That's when you started ignoring me (or at least, that's how it seemed from my end), lol.

I for one though am really happy to see you here brother David. Welcome!

Personally I don't think that when God steps into time, time exists the way we view it now. The future does not exist at this moment, while you are reading this. Neither does the past. The only time that exists in the universe at this moment, is this moment. Time is forever becoming. One moment is forever becoming another moment. But the future doesn't exist now. Neither does the past. One moment = eternity. So the Day of the LORD is a day.​

 

[Davidpt]

Let's talk about something that makes you not want to talk to me. AE4 is a biblical type of someone. He fulfilled a lot of stuff but he did not fulfil everything that was written.

That's when you started ignoring me (or at least, that's how it seemed from my end), lol.

I for one though am really happy to see you here brother David. Welcome!

Personally I don't think that when God steps into time, time exists the way we view it now. The future does not exist at this moment, while you are reading this. Neither does the past. The only time that exists in the universe at this moment, is this moment. Time is forever becoming. One moment is forever becoming another moment. But the future doesn't exist now. Neither does the past. One moment = eternity. So the Day of the LORD is a day.​

If I was ignoring you it wasn't intentional and for sure had nothing to do with bringing up A4E. Sometimes I just get in one of those moods where I just kind of drift away and lose interest in a lot of stuff. Eventually that mood wears off. A lot of times I just don't feel good. I'm dizzy a lot which makes it difficult to concentrate on things. Maybe high blood pressure, maybe high blood sugar, I don't know. I just don't like going to doctors. I don't trust these people these days.

For example, A neighbor a few years back got a covid shot then was told by her doctor that she probably needed another one, meaning soon after this first one. She did what the doctor recommended, and next thing you know, she is getting real bad sick all of a sudden, then she died not long after that. And she wasn't even very old and was never a sickly type person who is sick all the time to begin with. This woman was always smiling, seemed happy all the time, and always waved if I was outside when she was driving by to go to and from her home. Things like that make me leary of doctors in general. Unfortunately then, whatever is wrong with me, I can only speculate since I'm not planning on going to a doctor.

 

[Davidpt]

Personally I don't think that when God steps into time, time exists the way we view it now.​

Obviously though, God stepped into time 2000 years ago when He left heaven then was born on the earth and dwelled here for a few decades. Do you reason that in the same manner that you are reasoning this here?

 

[Zao is life]

Obviously though, God stepped into time 2000 years ago when He left heaven then was born on the earth and dwelled here for a few decades. Do you reason that in the same manner that you are reasoning this here?

The difference IMO is that 2,000 years ago Jesus became a human. So He experienced time the way we do.

Here on earth we only measure how long a day lasts by how long it takes for the earth that we live on to rotate once, as it orbits the sun. The length of days of other planets in God's creation are vastly different to ours.

God transcends that sort of time, because God transcends His creation. God exists, and God is always becoming, so each moment of God's existence is becoming another moment. The future does not exist at this moment, neither does the past, but past, present and future exist in each moment of God's existence, which is, was, and will always be.

Outside of the time that exists in the creation (which is measured by the cycles of planets, making the length of their days all different to one another), the only time that exists, is each moment of God's existence, which is always becoming another moment.

So it's called God's Day of Judgment. In our earthly estimation of time it might be more than what we experience now as 24 hours. It might be less. It could be in an instant in our estimation of time, or it could be a thousand years. We can't know.​

 

[Zao is life]

If I was ignoring you it wasn't intentional and for sure had nothing to do with bringing up A4E. Sometimes I just get in one of those moods where I just kind of drift away and lose interest in a lot of stuff. Eventually that mood wears off. A lot of times I just don't feel good. I'm dizzy a lot which makes it difficult to concentrate on things. Maybe high blood pressure, maybe high blood sugar, I don't know. I just don't like going to doctors. I don't trust these people these days.

For example, A neighbor a few years back got a covid shot then was told by her doctor that she probably needed another one, meaning soon after this first one. She did what the doctor recommended, and next thing you know, she is getting real bad sick all of a sudden, then she died not long after that. And she wasn't even very old and was never a sickly type person who is sick all the time to begin with. This woman was always smiling, seemed happy all the time, and always waved if I was outside when she was driving by to go to and from her home. Things like that make me leary of doctors in general. Unfortunately then, whatever is wrong with me, I can only speculate since I'm not planning on going to a doctor.

Sorry to hear about your health issues. I wasn't offended. Just hoped you weren't offended by what I was saying. I'm really glad to see you here. I was hoping that one day we would see you here. Your contributions are always of substance, and I enjoy reading your posts, even when I disagree with you about something.

Just so you know, this is a site where its statement about them recognizing that everyone is a work in progress means you should expect all sorts of non-biblical doctrine in the mixture here, as well as people not really always being very nice. What I like about this place is that it's not a "nanny-state".

 

[Freedm]

I'm new here and all, yet some of you already know me from other boards since I recognize some of you from these same boards.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

I would think, if nothing else, pretty much everyone is in agreement that verse 24 is meaning after the great white throne judgment.

So let's assume a hypothetical scenario here. When Christ intially returns it is 12 PM central time on a Monday of a particular month and a particular year. Obviously, for example, 24 hours later it is another day, thus no longer this same day He initially returned. Unless the end meant in verse 24 above occurs within 24 hours or less of Him having returned, it is ludicrous to insist there are no more days remaining once He has returned.

The point being, no way could the great white throne judgment be involving just 24 hours or less. Therefore, once He returns there has to be more days remaining in order to allow for the great white throne judgment eventually. Which means it is not preposterous that some of these days can be involving the millennium and satan's little season after He has initially returned since it is already impossible that verse 24 above can be meaning within 24 hours or less of Him having returned based on the amount of time the great white throne judgment alone will be involving.

For some reason Amils just can't seem to grasp how utterly ludicrous it is that verse 24 above is meaning 24 hours or less of Him having returned. As if it makes sense that in this same 24 hour window of time the great white throne judgment begins and is finished entirely.

My understanding of this passage is entirely different than yours, so you might not receive it well, but I'm going to tell you anyway. The way I see it, death has already been destroyed. Death was destroyed approximately 2000 years ago. More specifically, I believe it happened when the old Temple was destroyed, ushering in the new age, but some might argue that it happened at His resurrection. Either way, it was approximately 2000 years ago.

I believe that, before that time, when people died, they actually died. As in, they ceased having any consciousness or understanding. They did not go to heaven, hell, purgatory, or anyplace else. They just stopped having life altogether. That is what death is. For example, King Solomon said "The dead know nothing". That was then, and that's why the Bible describes the death of each old testament saint as going to "sleep with his fathers" (sleep was the term used, because they knew it was temporary. They would only "sleep" until the resurrection).

That is no longer the case. We now no longer experience death. We no longer "sleep with our fathers". These bodies may die, yes, and this life may end, but our consciousness will continue on in a new spiritual body, so we move from one life straight into the next, never experiencing death. This was what Jesus promised us, and I believe this has since come to pass. We are immortal.

Therefore, I believe Jesus' reign also ended 2000 years ago, when he conquered death. At that point he handed the kingdom over to God the Father, according to the scripture you quoted above. That entire passage refers to events in our past.

 

[Freedm]

Sorry to hear about your health issues. I wasn't offended. Just hoped you weren't offended by what I was saying. I'm really glad to see you here. I was hoping that one day we would see you here. Your contributions are always of substance, and I enjoy reading your posts, even when I disagree with you about something.

Just so you know, this is a site where its statement about them recognizing that everyone is a work in progress means you should expect all sorts of non-biblical doctrine in the mixture here, as well as people not really always being very nice. What I like about this place is that it's not a "nanny-state".

I've been on other forums that were nanny states, as you say. It stifles debate, and discourages people from openly throwing their ideas out or even participating at all. I like this place. Lord knows I have some unpopular ideas, so I appreciate having the freedom to share them.

 

[Freedm]

I wouldn't pay much attention to arguments by those on the 2nd century A.D. Gnostic doctrine called Amillennialism.

So many of their made-up doctrines fall flat compared to God's Word, it's no sense to debate with them.

That's precisely the wrong attitude to have in a place like this. With an open mind you could really learn something from Amils. None of their doctrine is "made up". They simply understand things differently than you do. You might want to ask them why, and their answers might surprise you.

 

[Timtofly]

My understanding of this passage is entirely different than yours, so you might not receive it well, but I'm going to tell you anyway. The way I see it, death has already been destroyed. Death was destroyed approximately 2000 years ago. More specifically, I believe it happened when the old Temple was destroyed, ushering in the new age, but some might argue that it happened at His resurrection. Either way, it was approximately 2000 years ago.

I believe that, before that time, when people died, they actually died. As in, they ceased having any consciousness or understanding. They did not go to heaven, hell, purgatory, or anyplace else. They just stopped having life altogether. That is what death is. For example, King Solomon said "The dead know nothing". That was then, and that's why the Bible describes the death of each old testament saint as going to "sleep with his fathers" (sleep was the term used, because they knew it was temporary. They would only "sleep" until the resurrection).

That is no longer the case. We now no longer experience death. We no longer "sleep with our fathers". These bodies may die, yes, and this life may end, but our consciousness will continue on in a new spiritual body, so we move from one life straight into the next, never experiencing death. This was what Jesus promised us, and I believe this has since come to pass. We are immortal.

Therefore, I believe Jesus' reign also ended 2000 years ago, when he conquered death. At that point he handed the kingdom over to God the Father, according to the scripture you quoted above. That entire passage refers to events in our past.

So technically we don't exist? We just think we exist in the mind of God?

Only God exists at the end of this verse:

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Technically Jesus does not even exist at that point if God is all in all. The Lamb is mentioned in the NHNE. And the Lamb was mentioned as existing before this current creation, that you claim does not currently exist. The Lamb is a metaphorical term. Evidently metaphors can exist outside of non existing realities.

Seems Jesus will not exist at the end of His reign as the physical Jesus will no longer be necessary in any future realities. Nor does this seem like the reality in Revelation 21, but I am sure you can explain that reality away as well as explaining this reality away, 2,000 years ago. It is you who suggest even people ceased to exist at one point in time.

I suppose you can explain away Hebrews 11 while you are at it. Faith only exists once it is realized.

"Faith is the evidence of things not seen."

It seems, even if we can see reality, then that means to you it still does not exist. Or should not exist according to your interpretation. It certainly takes faith to declare nothing has existed since 70AD. I suppose when 70AD rolls around we will know?

 

[Davidpt]

Let me ask some of this another way. Keeping in mind the title of this thread and the OP. Whenever Christ returns, whatever moment of the day that ends up being, do some of you think the clocks stop working, as in 'time' is something that can no longer be measured? Why this might matter, some of us tend to think there are a thousand years to fulfill when Christ returns, meaning Revelation 20:1-6. Obviously, no matter how you look at it, the fact it involves years, it therefore involves measurable time.

Even Amil's version of the thousand years involves measurable time.

Will there no longer be night and day ever again the moment Christ returns?
I think the OT already answers that question, though.

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night , which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me , saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD .

Even if one thinks they can successfully argue against verse 36 somehow, how do they figure they are going to do the same with verse 37 as well?

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Here we are once again, the end in question. When does this 'end' come in relation to when Christ initially returns? Does it come during measurable time, or outside of measurable time? Keeping in mind Jeremiah 31:35-37 above, since it appears to me that these ordinances will never depart from Him ever, unless someone wants to propose something utterly preposterous, that heaven above can actually be measured, when even God Himself is unable to measure it. After all, one can't measure something that is endless. Not even God can.

 

[Davidpt]

It is not necessary to insist or debate whether 'the end' is restricted to Earths rotation on its axis ie, 24 hours.

How can the end meant not occur within measurable time? IOW, how can outside of time have an end to it? How does that make sense? Isn't that the only other option? That if the end meant does not occur within measurable time, it therefore occurs outside of time?

 

[Davidpt]

As to the OP, I guess what I'm basically trying to say is this. If the end meant can't even happen until after the great white throne judgment, and that outside of time an end makes zero sense, this indicates that the great white throne judgment happens within 'time' as how we perceive time, not outside of time instead. Which means the last day has to involve an era of time. And that this era of time involves Christ's return, a millennium of a thousand years, satan's little season following that, then the great white throne judgment.

What about the following verse, for instance?

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

If this judgment is involving the great white throne judgment, when does the text indicate that this judgment takes place? In the last day? After the last day, as in outside of time? It for sure doesn't say the latter. So that should mean it's pretty safe to conclude that it means what it says, that it happens in the last day, that it happens while the clocks are still recording time. And this presents a major problem if the same 24 hour day Christ returns the 'end' meant 1 Corinthians 15:24 occurs that same day. Now we have to fit the great white throne judgment into this same 24 hour period if we think John 12:48 involves the great white throne judgment and that if we don't want our interpretation to contradict that verse. Clearly, our interpretation would be contradicting that verse if we insist the GWTJ happens outside of time while also insisting John 12:48 involves this same GWTJ.

 

[Davy]

That's precisely the wrong attitude to have in a place like this. With an open mind you could really learn something from Amils. None of their doctrine is "made up". They simply understand things differently than you do. You might want to ask them why, and their answers might surprise you.

Learn what from Amills??? That's such an ignorant statement you make, simply because all one need do is STUDY God's Word and keep HIS Word as written to know the doctrines of men called Amillennialism do NOT align with God's Word!

So you are funny, saying that someone like me who RECOGNIZES the Amill fake doctrine of men you're on might learn something from it!