The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[Ferris Bueller]

All you're doing is bullying people by implying they don't believe Scripture because they don't interpret difficult passages the way you do. You're venturing perilously close to trollism.

They aren't difficult. The problem is they don't line up with what the church says. That's what makes them seem difficult. The difficulty comes in that we can't accept what they say and so we invent difficult interpretations to make them say what we prefer.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I pray God will save us all from Internet Information Age "experts."

All you have to do is read the Bible. It's not cryptic. It's the church's theologies that make the Bible seem cryptic and not easily understood. Because you have to twist the Bible around in creative ways to get it to say what they want it to say, so it seems like they are unencrypting a secret message for you when all you have to do is read it and see their message is not there.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Saved Once and Forever- by Gods Power- Expressly Sufficient for me.

Glory to God,
Taken

Dead faith is no faith. Dead faith = not even saved for it to matter that a person is saved once and forever by God's power.

 

[Taken]

Dead faith is no faith. Dead faith = not even saved for it to matter that a person is saved once and forever by God's power.

There is no such thing as "Dead Faith" of a person Saved and Born Again.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[justbyfaith]

Except that it isn't.

What difference does it make, anyway, if it is God Who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure? (Philippians 2:13)

All is of grace.

Even Jesus, as if to rebuke those who want to insist that salvation is by works, said, in effect, Okay, you want to insist that salvation is by works; if you are going to do that then I tell you that faith is a work and that it is the only work that will save you. (John 6:28-29, my paraphrase)

He thus brought it back down to the nitty-gritty of the fact that salvation is by faith alone.

Dead faith is no faith. Dead faith = not even saved for it to matter that a person is saved once and forever by God's power.

I can agree with that. What I will not agree with is the idea that salvation is in any way through works. Ephesians 2:9 unequivocally refutes such an idea.

If a living faith is the only faith that will save...and a living faith always produces works given the opportunity...I will say that works still do not save a man...because someone might have a living faith and yet no opportunity to do any good works...and that living faith will save them apart from works, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5-6, Titus 3:5 (kjv), Romans 11:5-6.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

There is no such thing as "Dead Faith" of a person Saved and Born Again.

But you are defending the born again person standing before Christ with no works. You're saying no such person exists. And I agree. That's my whole point.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Even Jesus, as if to rebuke those who want to insist that salvation is by works

Do you really think I'm saying works literally earn salvation?

He thus brought it back down to the nitty-gritty of the fact that salvation is by faith alone.

A person is justified by faith apart from works. But if your faith is alone when you get to the judgement you will not enter into the kingdom of God. Faith that is alone shows you do not have the faith that justifies apart from works.

“We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.” Martin Luther

That's why Jesus is able to judge us at the resurrection as having saving faith according to what we have done. He doesn't have to do it that way, but he does. It's wrong to change the Bible because we don't agree with it. Just take Jesus' words for what they are. If you do not have works of faith at the judgment you will go to the left into the lake of fire. And so it is in that way, and only that way that works save you at the judgment. It has nothing to do with those works earning you entry into the kingdom.

 

[justbyfaith]

But if your faith is alone when you get to the judgement you will not enter into the kingdom of God.

Yet you admit that if someone on their deathbed calls on the name of the Lord, that they shall be saved on their day of judgment. So, this is an exception to the rule that you have set forth.

If someone does call on the name of the Lord but has no subsequent works, do they go to heaven or hell?

According to the above, there is at least one instance where they go to heaven. Why does God make an exception in their case?

From a hypothetical pov, I would say that if a person calls on the name of the Lord but has no subsequent works over the next, say, fifty years, that Romans 10:13 declares that they still "shall be saved" on their day of judgment.

Of course, we know that if someone is truly born again, they will have works to show for their faith if they are given the opportunity to do good works. That is not the point. The point is that salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:9).

So, the Lord does not place a man's name in the Book of Life on the basis of his works, but on the basis of whether or not he had faith in Jesus Christ.

1Co 15:1, Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2, By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3, For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4, And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Nothing there about our works saving us on our day of judgment.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Yet you admit that if someone on their deathbed calls on the name of the Lord, that they shall be saved on their day of judgment. So, this is an exception to the rule that you have set forth.

If you live long enough to have works and you don't have works, you don't have faith. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? God is the one who has chosen to judge those of us who live long enough to have works according to our works. He doesn't change that just because a handful of people in all of human history die immediately after having faith in God. If anybody who lives out a full life thinks they're going to waltz into the kingdom without works because the person who died instantly after receiving Christ enters in without works they got another thing coming. They're kidding themselves. If the person who died right at justification had lived they would have had works! God knows this! God is not a legalist! The mitigating circumstances of their situation DOESN'T CHANGE HOW YOU AND I WILL BE JUDGED.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If someone does call on the name of the Lord but has no subsequent works, do they go to heaven or hell?

Their works show us if they're going to heaven or hell.

1 John 3:9
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are

This is not difficult theology. Just read it. Don't make it complicated by trying to squeeze the church's false beliefs about this into John's words.

 

[Taken]

But you are defending the born again person standing before Christ with no works.

Correct.
Such a man's Salvation is Secure.
Such a man will not receive REWARDS.

You're saying no such person exists.

Not correct.
What I said was, there is no such person, who is saved and Born Again with "Dead FAITH".

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[justbyfaith]

Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[justbyfaith]

If you live long enough to have works and you don't have works, you don't have faith. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? God is the one who has chosen to judge those of us who live long enough to have works according to our works. He doesn't change that just because a handful of people in all of human history die immediately after having faith in God. If anybody who lives out a full life thinks they're going to waltz into the kingdom without works because the person who died instantly after receiving Christ enters in without works they got another thing coming. They're kidding themselves. If the person who died right at justification had lived they would have had works! God knows this! God is not a legalist! The mitigating circumstances of their situation DOESN'T CHANGE HOW YOU AND I WILL BE JUDGED.

Again I will say that the only true motivation for doing good works has to be the fact that one is already saved and is eternally grateful to the Lord for his salvation (Luke 7:36-50) and loves Him because He first loved him (1 John 4:19).

Knowing that we are saved is the only good foundation for a labour of love.

If we don't know that we are saved, for that we have just one more work that we have to do in order to procure a real salvation, this motivation is placed into limbo.

Furthermore, if we think that we have to continue in good works in order to stay saved, our motivation for doing good works is based in selfishness and would not be even capable of saving the man, being corrupt.

If you do not have to do them in order to stay saved, I would ask, how do works relate to salvation? Does a work of the past secure your salvation so that now, you don't have to do any more works to save yourself? Where then is the motivation to do good works in the future?

This, as opposed to knowing that you are saved and doing good works because the Lord has shed abroad His love in your heart.

 

[Taken]

If you live long enough to have works and you don't have works, you don't have faith. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Faith is a Gift from God...without one iota of Works.

Works is not from God!
Works is what a man can do.

Works accomplished to Glorify God...
God gives a Reward (not a Gift).

Why are you meshing what God gifts with what a man does?
They are separate parties, separate things.

Why are you meshing Rewards and Gifts?
They are two separate things.

When a man:
• Repents of having had Disbelief-
• Gives his body to be crucified-
• Confesses Heartful Belief-
He is Forgiven, And his Soul is Restored, Saved unto God, And his spirit is quickened to a Born Again spirit, (via Gods Seed), and he is Baptized with the Holy Spirit (Gods internal Spirit.)

That ^ is a man having performed A Service unto God, (not a Works).
That does NOT become Undone, regardless if a man does Works or Not.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BarneyFife]

They aren't difficult. The problem is they don't line up with what the church says. That's what makes them seem difficult. The difficulty comes in that we can't accept what they say and so we invent difficult interpretations to make them say what we prefer.

All you have to do is read the Bible. It's not cryptic. It's the church's theologies that make the Bible seem cryptic and not easily understood. Because you have to twist the Bible around in creative ways to get it to say what they want it to say, so it seems like they are unencrypting a secret message for you when all you have to do is read it and see their message is not there.

Even Jesus, as if to rebuke those who want to insist that salvation is by works, said, in effect, Okay, you want to insist that salvation is by works; if you are going to do that then I tell you that faith is a work and that it is the only work that will save you. (John 6:28-29, my paraphrase)

He thus brought it back down to the nitty-gritty of the fact that salvation is by faith alone.

It's all just endless hair-splitting over what affords salvation and what proves salvation. And straw men everywhere in between.

 

[BarneyFife]

But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. (Titus 3:9)

What meaneth this? How readest thou?

 

[justbyfaith]

It's all just endless hair-splitting

It is important that we come to a proper understanding and if "hair-splitting" means that we can come to the conclusion that the scriptures don't contradict themselves, and also, we come to an understanding of the exact meaning of what the Bible teaches on any given subject, it is worth it all.

 

[justbyfaith]

But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. (Titus 3:9)

What meaneth this? How readest thou?

It says to avoid "foolish" disputes...

It does not say to avoid those disputes that matter to people's salvation.

Jde 1:3, Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jde 1:4, For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 2:2, But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So, the Lord does not place a man's name in the Book of Life on the basis of his works, but on the basis of whether or not he had faith in Jesus Christ.

And what does the Bible tell us the Lord uses to determine if we had faith in Him and can go into the kingdom? Our works.......

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Matthew 25:34-35
take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat

Just take Jesus at what he says. Stop trying to squeeze the church's beliefs into what he said. You ruin everything when you do that. It makes Christianity complicated and frustrating to discern when it's really so simple. Just let Christianity be what it really is in the Bible.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If we don't know that we are saved, for that we have just one more work that we have to do in order to procure a real salvation, this motivation is placed into limbo.

Furthermore, if we think that we have to continue in good works in order to stay saved, our motivation for doing good works is based in selfishness and would not be even capable of saving the man, being corrupt.

Who's even making this argument????? Why can't you get this unstuck from your thinking and stop making this about earning salvation. Our works SHOW that we are saved. The absence of works shows that we are not saved. The person who doesn't have any works doesn't have the promise of being saved by faith apart from works for that faith to somehow save him. He's not ready to be judged according to his works when Jesus comes back.

If you do not have to do them in order to stay saved, I would ask, how do works relate to salvation?

They SHOW whether you have really been justified by faith apart from works or not. If you can't show by what you do that you are justified by faith apart from works then you haven't been justified by faith apart from works.

This isn't a condemnation of the true believer being pummeled by sin and defeated over and over again and who comes weeping before the Lord in brokenness. This is for the arrogant slob who thinks he can purposely sin in the life he's always had without a care in the world and still be saved because he has faith and salvation is not by works.